How hard is it to play around in some Latin Music

[Theo Verelst]

I've always liked those piano riffs or anti-licks or what they're called with the 5th in the bass walking about some semitones an octave or two under a fitting third interval, and all kinds of other tricks that most would associate with Latin music or some kind.

 

Now, I don't mean a fitting jazz/fusion piano solo for a great Tito Puente hit song or something, but I mean it interests me how to do stuff like "Conga" from Gloria E. but then not putting down cover parts, but the actually play around in that style.

 

Now I can, if I put my mind to it I could imitate or improvise stuff and that's fun but I wondered how people experience the degree of difficulty of putting down some nice playing with latin feel and a bit of soloing, say on an actual piano.

 

That's without production tricks, because in honesty I think in most of those pieces there are essential production elements to get that sound going, so that it doesn't sound like some glitchy version of A Night in Tunisia with some misplaced dissonant notes.

 

T.

[ElmerJFudd]

Nothing beats listening and of course a few lessons or playing with someone who does the style for a living, but google is useful at times...

 

clonk

 

This one looks promising...

[MAJUSCULE]

It's hard.

[JohnnyB3]

If you go though this course slowly, mastering each step, you will build a solid, authentic groove. No production tricks, no BS.

 

The GRINGO'S E-Guide to Salsa Piano

 

[video:youtube]

 

https://vrodriguesmusic.wordpress.com/salsa-ebook/

 

 

 

[stoken6]

the degree of difficulty of putting down some nice playing with latin feel and a bit of soloing

High degree of difficulty. I could never get to grips with that groove/time-displacement that's inherent in many latin styles.

 

I think in most of those pieces there are essential production elements to get that sound going.

I wouldn't worry about that at this stage!

 

Cheers, Mike.

[Theo Verelst]

That's a cool course! I dare you to get the sound in the example video without attention to that particular feel that comes from production/instrument preparation though.

 

I know from memory it's quite possible to get a nice piano sound that can get a live Latin feel that's appropriate and interesting, but that typical sound doesn't automatically come into being, even though I know it's hard to play good solos in the style with all the production in the world.

 

T.

[Outkaster]

If you can't feel the clave you will never be able to play it. Cultural music you can't just go and learn. Not trying to be negative but that is how it is. Salsa, Soca, Compa and Reggae are not just about the music but about food, the culture, clothing and everything else. You have to be able to "live" in that culture and not be too clinical in your approach about it.

[Threadslayer]

 

This one looks promising...

Wow. This looks like a terrific resource. Thanks!

[tucktronix]

If you can't feel the clave you will never be able to play it. Cultural music you can't just go and learn. Not trying to be negative but that is how it is. Salsa, Soca, Compa and Reggae are not just about the music but about food, the culture, clothing and everything else. You have to be able to "live" in that culture and not be too clinical in you're approach about it.

 

^^^This

[Bobadohshe]

Dude it's a serious journey to get into these wonderful styles of music and learn them and be able to play them. Outkaster's right, it's about culture and history both in the narrow scope of the music and the broader scope of food/dance/political and ethnic and sociological history. It's about record labels and certain studios and styles and certain titans of each style and what they did to further the art. Who ended up where and what happened when they moved to this part of the country.

 

And it's a wonderful and fun course of study in any music. Reducing it to a casual couple licks does it a great disservice.

[MAJUSCULE]

Thanks, Jason and Bobby, for putting it into words.

[Doug White]

If you can't feel the clave you will never be able to play it.

 

Most definitely!

[tfort]

This one looks promising...

Wow. This looks like a terrific resource. Thanks!

 

If you also want the CD and DVD along with the book:

http://www.amazon.com/Essential-Grooves-Performing-Producing-Contemporary/dp/1883217652

[Outkaster]

Dude it's a serious journey to get into these wonderful styles of music and learn them and be able to play them. Outkaster's right, it's about culture and history both in the narrow scope of the music and the broader scope of food/dance/political and ethnic and sociological history. It's about record labels and certain studios and styles and certain titans of each style and what they did to further the art. Who ended up where and what happened when they moved to this part of the country.

 

And it's a wonderful and fun course of study in any music. Reducing it to a casual couple licks does it a great disservice.

 

Yes thanks you put it better than I did!

[JohnnyB3]

Not sure exactly what you mean about production/instrument preparation, but touch, rhythm and groove are important to getting the sound.

 

[JohnnyB3]

Definitely a serious, wonderful, and fun journey. You are right - one will not get far by reducing it to a few licks.

 

The Gringos Guide to Salsa Piano is not a bunch of licks, it's more of a 'teach a man to clave' than a 'feed a man a lick' approach.

 

Culture, history, growing up with the sounds at home, etc are pluses in acquiring any sort of ethnic groove including latin, but rhythm and groove can also be learned.

 

Most music educators are fairly precise in their approach to teaching about harmony for example, but when it comes to teaching about how to groove, it's often placed in the metaphysical realm.

 

Dizzy Gillesipe's pianist Mike Longo teaches a precise method of developing "groove" that he learned from Dizzy, who was a musical genius. Groove, in this approach, is acquired from learning African rhythms on a simple hand drum, but applied in a unique way:

 

[video:youtube]

[video:youtube]

[video:youtube]

 

http://www.jazzbeat.com

[RudyS]

 

This one looks promising...

Wow. This looks like a terrific resource. Thanks!

 

Indeed! Thanks for this!

[BluMunk]

If you can't feel the clave you will never be able to play it. Cultural music you can't just go and learn. Not trying to be negative but that is how it is. Salsa, Soca, Compa and Reggae are not just about the music but about food, the culture, clothing and everything else. You have to be able to "live" in that culture and not be too clinical in your approach about it.

 

On the one hand you've got a point that there's deeper knowledge required for masterful playing of certain styles of music that goes beyond "put the emphasis on one and the and of three" (or whatever).

 

Learning means being open to the feeling of the thing, the emotions, and the stories and history that come along with it (no music occurs in a vacuum).

 

On the other hand, you can absolutely go learn "cultural music'. It's just that the learning might not take the form of a crash-course in theory.

[Steve Nathan]

Theo,

I just finished a post in the "drummer wants to learn keys" thread that would fit here nicely. It all depends on how deeply you want to go. Serious mastery takes years, but a little basic familiarity can be accomplished in much less time.

As a session guy, my job is often described as "knowing how to fake my way in all genres"

I don't get many Latin calls, but I will admit to spending some time listening and watching the results of a Youtube search for "Montuno Piano". A recent session for an artist (last named Gonzales, with a producer named Garcia ), came out pretty well. Thankfully we had Nir Z on drums, who plays this stuff flawlessly authentic (from his years in NY City), but I managed to leave them quite happy too. I know I could never take a gig in a real Salsa band, but it is possible to pick up some flavor, and it all contributes to making you a more rounded musician.

[Jazzmammal]

The takeaway Steve is you had Nir Z and I'm sure a killer bass player too. Years ago I was in a decent local jazz fusion group that actually stayed together for about 8 years and we had lots of rehearsals. We loved hot latin jazz but man oh man, the drummer and bass player have to be solid or there's nothing for the rest of the band to lock into. Two tunes that come to mind that we spent hours, days, weeks rehearsing was Mambo For Trajid by Oscar Hernandez and South American Sojourn by Spyro Gyra.

 

Those tunes are an absolute bitch to learn without first class players. I did a complete chart of Sojourn and that was hard enough. Tom's piano work was outstanding and no, I couldn't cover what he did but I did get fairly close on a good day. So many times though we would try those and the bass and drums just weren't quite there so the groove wasn't there and the whole tune just died, at least to me trying to play it. Both guys are pretty good but to lock into this kind of stuff is sooo hard.

 

As far as Theo learning this style, just listen and work it out. An easy way to get into it is do a ton of Santana. That will really put the clave in your head without getting too distracted by a killer pianist. Those YT vids about montuno's are very good, I've listened to lots of those plus I have a pretty good montuno book.

 

Bob

[allan_evett]

I relate to what Steve said, a lot. Have been in several live situations (mostly jobbing dates, back in the 90s) and had a few studio dates that threw similar curves my way. I think the exposure and resulting 'flavoring' is very beneficial toward overall musicianship.

 

Specific to Latin stylings, one corporate / wedding band I worked with had "The Conga" in their setlist for several years; and that piano solo always had a way of kicking my arse. It wasn't the riffs or octave patterns - I'm fairly comfortable with those in a bunch of styles, rather more the whole vibe, as noted so far in the thread.

Then there was the surprise Clave style piano part that snuck onto a Kraft jingle I did in 2003. The producer had MIDI tracked several tuned percussion parts, and I was hired initially to add a 'cheesy' transistor organ part over the top of that. But he had an inspiration to track a piano part as well - for additional rhythmic support and flavor. So suddenly I was laying down a Latin rhythm part on piano (which I felt just a tad green on..), and of course the client happened to be in the studio. But it all came out well, and I managed to pick up another piano date from the guy. I'm just glad he didn't asked for a 'Conga-style' solo; we'd likely have been there all afternoon...

[Theo Verelst]

Lot's of interesting info and few good stories, thanks for that. I'm still listening to some of the materials, tomorrow I'll put some examples on my big audio system, and maybe drum* along a bit, the clave pattern isn't hard to do for me, but clearly there's a loooong way between the main rhythm-o-graphics competing for attention on various sides of the States and even across the pond, and the accompanying musical cultures.

 

Some of it is about the mathematics of sound, of which I wouldn't want to be a part of the academic family much, but it certainly appeals to me, and I kind of like to play for instance piano fragments a bit in the Latin style. As long as the rhythms are cool and interesting, I suppose nobody would object, except when there's conflicting meaning with all those percussive elements moving through the air, and I think a good tone, as well as a certain discipline in arriving at a good sound might help with that, in some cases essentially!

 

Hey, nothing about sampling in this thread...

 

Added note

(*) I know how the drum on the real thing, but usually here I mean drumming ON THE KEYBOARD, as opposed to the physical experience.

[timwat]

A suggested resource, if you can't find one-on-one instruction:

 

Rebeca Mauleon, 101 Montunos

 

The resource is far more than simply "101 montunos" and provides a practical and conceptual intro to clave, afro-cuban and dipping your toe into latin.

 

Not a substitute to personal instruction, but a wonderful resource (has a CD with all the montunos demonstrated as well). I learned Latin from Saul Sierra, one of the premiere latin bass players in the Bay Area. It takes living it to play it well. He mentioned that true latin players can immediately hear when a jazz guy is playing latin, but hasn't spent years steeped in the clave.

 

Similar to when a rock guy plays blues for the first time. Even if the notes are right, the feel isn't. Still, even Sierra suggested Mauleon's book as a great resource for piano players looking to start the journey.

[Threadslayer]

I couldn't make the link work Tim. Here is one place to get it.

[timwat]

I couldn't make the link work Tim. Here is one place to get it.

 

Thanks - fixed my post!

[Theo Verelst]

Yeah, them beat divisions are hard to maintain as pure fractions without triplets, I suppose!

 

T.

[Tusker]

Yeah, them beat divisions are hard to maintain as pure fractions without triplets, I suppose!

 

The impure fractions provide the flavor. That's what "swing" and "feel" mean. We do something superficially similar to this as trio ...all of us have played and studied latin rhythms, but it's been a year of practice (and more immersion) to get not-even-close to this fluency and feel ...

 

 

[video:youtube]_sLgsh0Q6kg

 

 

I appreciate that you picked your words carefully in your initial post when you mentioned playing around in some Latin Music. Playing around in some Latin Music? It's easy. Playing Latin music with respect and authenticity? It's harder than it looks.

[Outkaster]

I am going to say something that is probably unpopular but having spent a lot of time with Caribbean music its not something you can fake. If you really want to be good at it you have to live in that world like I mentioned. Passing off pseudo licks as authentic is what some people really want to do without putting in the effort to learn correctly. You have to be willing to be a small part of a big picture also which is something 70% of musicians can't understand, the music is based on rhythm. Another thing to be aware of, you know what happens when you play it in front of those ethnic crowds? They wont respect it if it comes off wrong. Sorry that is how it is a lot of times, sometimes there can be racial implications also. I went through it with Reggae but luckily I played with a Jamaican band so I learned it from the source, not from videos or instructional books . It's because this material is based on feel. I got incredibly lucky in fact now that I look back. These techniques are almost passed down kinds of things. Once I saw Johns Brown Body (jam band/Reggae band) open for Third World in 2002. They are out of Ithaca NY and very popular with the Dead crowd. Not one person in this crowd danced and couldnt in fact wait till they got off stage. It was because of their execution. They are a tight band but they fell flat on their face. Caribbean music is based on specific bass lines, montunos and execution, not what people think they need to reinterpret. It's not also meant to be changed it works because it's specific. These people from these countries know, even if they are not musicians about this music. My girl is from Trinidad and knows all this stuff and can point out when things are not authentic. Its just how it is.

[Bobadohshe]

Once I saw Johns Brown Body (jam band/Reggae band) open for Third World in 2002.

 

That must have been an interesting juxtaposition.

[Outkaster]

I should see if I can find the pictures. It was a huge outdoor event downtown here and I was watching as another local Reggae band was the first opener. I felt bad kind of for Johns Brown Body but they were totally not a fit for a West Indian crowd.