Yamaha hasn't released a new flagship synth because ________

[MAJUSCULE]

...they're still not sure if the game was actually changed and how much more they have to change it.

 

Actually, is it still the same game? Everything looks a little fuzzy after the game-changing drinking.

[Song80s]

 

 

I have no doubt Yamaha will eventually cook something up to keep up with Korg and Roland, but then again it does indeed dwarf the other two in overall size and involvement in multiple industries.

 

bigger is not always better

 

Better is best ( redundancy exercise)

 

Right, I said bigger, not better. I also did not say worse because as stated earlier, I'm not hatin' on Yamaha.

 

I don't think anyone hates Yamaha ( for not doing a truly ' new ' workstation).

 

But every year that goes by without Yamaha doing a major new w/s, I think it increases the chances that they will stand pat/do nothing. And not exceed what Korg has done. So we respectfully disagree with Yamaha speculation.

 

doing nothing for several years suggests inertia/indifference in the big bad business world

[MIDI2XS]

It's too bad we even have to make jokes about it from a company that as wide as it is deep like Yamaha. Some of us here really like their products.

Yep - see my sig, and some of you might recognize my avatar (although not my user name) from over at Motifator.

 

Nevertheless, I'm not impatiently anticipating a new model, and I don't buy based solely on previous experience. If/when the latest/greatest is available from Yamaha, I'll determine whether it offers sufficiently more than what I already own before making a purchase decision.

 

[Bif_]

I recall seeing videos of the development of the original Motif and the painstaking efforts Yamaha engineering took to recreate certain sounds used by specific artists. It was incredible and impressive.

 

Based upon those efforts I believe they've been working on a new product and I believe it will be impressive.

 

If Motif XF (or even MOXF) sales are still strong there's not much benefit to releasing a new model.

 

I do seriously wonder of part of the delay could be related to something like cutting weight of the instrument, especially since the development sequence has been going on so long.

 

Casio really put the crosshairs on lower weight when the PX5S came out and everyone seems to have jumped on board.

 

But I digress from the original topic......

[Daniel Wade]

Yamaha hasn't released a new flagship synth because-

 

"At the Yamaha Corporation we're focused on one thing and one thing alone".[/url]

 

 

[GovernorSilver]

 

I don't think anyone hates Yamaha ( for not doing a truly ' new ' workstation).

 

But every year that goes by without Yamaha doing a major new w/s, I think it increases the chances that they will stand pat/do nothing. And not exceed what Korg has done. So we respectfully disagree with Yamaha speculation.

 

doing nothing for several years suggests inertia/indifference in the big bad business world

 

I'm just saying Yamaha behaves differently than its perceived Japanese synth rivals because it's bigger, that's all. Musos have a tendency to expect it to be just like its rivals but forget about the size difference.

 

Korg is the most agile of the three because it's the smallest. Roland only just now jumped on the modular/analog bandwagon - it's bigger than Korg and includes a successful (by all reports) printing business.

[Song80s]

 

I don't think anyone hates Yamaha ( for not doing a truly ' new ' workstation).

 

But every year that goes by without Yamaha doing a major new w/s, I think it increases the chances that they will stand pat/do nothing. And not exceed what Korg has done. So we respectfully disagree with Yamaha speculation.

 

doing nothing for several years suggests inertia/indifference in the big bad business world

 

I'm just saying Yamaha behaves differently than its perceived Japanese synth rivals because it's bigger, that's all. Musos have a tendency to expect it to be just like its rivals but forget about the size difference.

 

Korg is the most agile of the three because it's the smallest. Roland only just now jumped on the modular/analog bandwagon - it's bigger than Korg and includes a successful (by all reports) printing business.

 

given my decades in working for large corps( Sony, for ex.) and small cos and having my own business, there is no doubt a smaller organization can turn on a dime and change strategy literally overnight. But access to capital is a constraint.

 

For a large corp to make a major change in strategy is very expensive. And once the # crunchers get involved, there will be all kinds of proposals, ROI's presentations, meeting after meeting, etc, etc. Access to capital is not as constraining but it will take a lot of effort to ' get that budget ' for that new product.

[Jazzmammal]

I recall seeing videos of the development of the original Motif and the painstaking efforts Yamaha engineering took to recreate certain sounds used by specific artists. It was incredible and impressive.

 

This raises a question. What keyboard specific signature sounds have been used extensively in modern music over the last 5-10 years that would prompt Yamaha to do the same thing again?

 

Bob

[Dave Ferris]

My take on it is -- a large percentage of the users of the Motif and its subsets seem to be in the live area. If you are strictly recording , many people are using soft synths over any hardware keyboard anyway. If you are just doing home recording for your own satisfaction-- it's not like the sounds of the Motif are going to ruin your recording..

 

For live stuff , in a band mix, coming through a PA or personal onstage monitoring system -- is that little incremental *better* that the Kronos , Kurz Forte / PC8, maybe for some the Roland, have on certain sounds --organ , synth, strings , brass ( and to many this is subjective, the Motif still rules for many in certain areas) -- going to come across live in the heat of battle ?

 

Sure when Busch posts an mp3 (that everyone's listening to with computer speakers ) comparing the Kronos trumpet with the Motif trumpet , everyone can say -- wow listen to the difference , man the Motif sucks , they are so behind !

 

However I really don't think that 10-20% better of sonic goodness on an Oberheim type pad (again subjective. To many ears I know and respect, Korg's sounds have always had a hyped quality to them) is going to translate live through speakers , in most room acoustics, along with band mix figured in.

 

Regarding the Nords -- I think that's hugely a cool factor to be seen with one as opposed to it being that sonically superior to a flagship Motif.

 

I have no horse in this race since I'm just a piano player. I can't see buying another workstation type synth in my life considering the gigs I do , or want to do.

 

But just seeing musicians of different ability levels and genres -- it seems more about the song, what they're playing and how they are using the sounds they have.

 

When was the last time someone was at a concert or came up to you after a set and said --man you know that Motif EP or string sound you were using really ruined the music for me.

 

I think Yamaha understands all of this after getting feedback from their Pro artists , in all genres. And yes they continue to sell based on the brand recognition, reliability and the simple fact -- they still sound good.

[J. Dan]

I fall into the camp of someone who uses his gear for live. For me it's not about the best sounds, it's about being able to create any sound as quickly and efficiently as possible, and having features that make it easier to implement the keboard's capability in a live performance - the Kronos set list comes to mind.

[Michael W]

Maybe Yamaha continues to sell so many XF units that there's no point in going through the trouble and expense of introducing something "new" until sales drop off.

 

OR,

 

Maybe Motif sales are so weak, and MOX sales are so strong, that Yamaha is taking a cue from Roland and questioning the ongoing viability of the high end workstation market.

 

[MotiDave]

I have an XF, maybe they just don't want to make me sad. They did say they care about my purchase (ok, its been awhile, but I felt it was sincere).

[hurricane hugo]

reasons.

[Doc Tonewheel]

Because we're still buying the XF8.

 

And why wouldn't we with up to 4gb of RAM for user samples.

Not going to get that with Nord.

 

There is still a lot of sonic potential in the current Motif XF.

 

My theory is that they are working on a 25 lb re-release of the CS80.

[16251]

Yamaha hasn't released a new flagship synth because they decided it's easier to just buy the rights to the Kronos and re-badge it, then spend the R&D to come up with a better interface.

[ElmerJFudd]

NAMM Show 2003 - Yamaha shows the Motif ES.

64 note polyphony, 175MB ROM - 1,859 Waveforms

768 presets + 64 kits, 384 user + 32 kits, 128 performances, 128 multis

 

A bad-@ss flagship ROMpler for the time period, but it also had three plugin slots to add things like:

PLG150-AN - analog modeling synthesizer based on their ground breaking AN1x

PLG150-DX - FM synthesis based on the revolutionary DX7

PLG150-VL - based on Yamaha's relationship with Stanford University and subsequent VL-1 physical modeling synthesizer

 

Push forward to a few generations to 2010.

Motif XF has 128 polyphony, 741MB ROM, 128mb of volatile RAM for sampling, up to 2GB of non-volatile RAM for loading (and keeping) your own samples.

 

NAMM Show 2011 - Korg shows the Kronos and that an Intel Atom processor is capable of hosting 9 different sound engines including the entire range of recent Korg synthesis technologies.

 

Now it's 2015 - Yamaha engineers could do a modern flagship running on a fast ATOM or ARM processor. It could have multi-gigabyte piano sample libraries on SSD, a 1gb ROM, run all of their synthesis engines, have 512mb of onboard sampling memory, and 4gb of memory for user samples.

 

88k $3999.99

76k $3599.99

61k $2999.99

 

Is this what we want them to build?

 

Or should they focus on a few of their core technologies, refine them down to a piano engine, modeling organ engine, ROM for Rhodes, Wurlies, Clavs, Orch, etc., and a DX and/or AN synth in a light weight form factor and intuitive one knob/button per function user interface.

 

Street Price

88k $4199.99

76k $3599.99

73k $2999.99

 

[MIDI2XS]

Some conjecture...

 

While the Motif XF has been around for nearly five years, the MOXF has been available for only about a year and a half. MOXF sales are strong, partially because that model is heavily based on the flagship Motif XF, but at a significantly lower price. If Yamaha released a replacement for the XF, then the attraction of the MOXF would likely be lessened because it would no longer be "almost" the flagship.

 

Assuming that Yamaha already has a Motif XF replacement waiting to be introduced, they have to get the timing right. Eventually the MOXF sales will drop off, but if Yamaha waits too long then the Motif replacement's design might not be sufficiently cutting-edge to be attractive.

 

I don't think Yamaha will abandon the high-end workstation market, and I don't think they'll wait too much longer to market something new. We'll see...

 

[piano39]

My two cents:

Yamaha will come out with a new workstation. It is too important of a market for them to walk away from. Here's my guess: The Kronos really threw them for a loop and they abandoned whatever they were working on and started over. About 20 years ago, they announced a monster FM synth that they never released. IIRC, it was because the Korg M1 came out of left field and destroyed the market for FM tech.

 

I think that the whole purpose of this 40 year legacy marketing that they are doing is to keep their brand active while they work things out.

 

BTW, Yamaha did throw us XF/MOX owners a bone this week- They released about a gig and a half of free sounds. One Gig is samples of the VP1 Virtual synth and the remainder is a bunch of performances. This is the kind of thing that will start rumors- why are they stirring up interest in the VP1???

[Jim Alfredson]

But every year that goes by without Yamaha doing a major new w/s, I think it increases the chances that they will stand pat/do nothing. And not exceed what Korg has done. So we respectfully disagree with Yamaha speculation.

 

While I would love to see Yamaha return to its synthesis roots, this begs the question: Of you that own the Kronos, are you using it to it's fullest capability, 100% of it's functionality to the point where you need something that "exceed what Korg has done" from Yamaha?

 

It's getting to the point of absurdity really. What can't you do with the current crop of instruments that you need to do?

[Jazzwee]

...because the user interface they came up with was too simple. They have to work on making it complicated again.

[Geoff Grace]

Yamaha hasn't released a new flagship synth because...

 

...they're not finished putting the "mo" in Motif.

 

Best,

 

Geoff

[Theo Verelst]

Releasing a Flagship ? Hmm, so the CP4 is no Flagship, and the XF and so on aren't flagship because the Oasis an Kronos were first? It seems to me they're keeping the motif, and don't want to help murderers, while the police are processing the latest crime scene..

[MIDI2XS]

[...]I think that the whole purpose of this 40 year legacy marketing that they are doing is to keep their brand active while they work things out.

Certainly possible.

 

 

BTW, Yamaha did throw us XF/MOX owners a bone this week- They released about a gig and a half of free sounds. One Gig is samples of the VP1 Virtual synth and the remainder is a bunch of performances. This is the kind of thing that will start rumors- why are they stirring up interest in the VP1???

I suspect that the free VP1 sample library and Hybrid Performer downloads available from Easy Sounds, and the inclusion of CS-80 samples in the Premium Collection, are all meant to distract from the Kronos and its synthesis diversity. The CS-80 and VP1 samples also serve as reminders of Yamaha's heritage - it's hard to say exactly where they might be going with that.

 

[Aidan]

The truth is probably that they're still selling boatloads of MOXFs and really, despite our salivating, this is where the big sales battleground is, and always has been.

 

The market as a whole is limited the top end is _extremely_ limited. Once a few pros have snapped up theirs, and maybe the backline companies have acquired a few, who's left to sell to, other than a few select weekend warriors with deep pockets?

 

Arguably, the main role of any company's 'flagship' model has always been to drive sales of lower-end items, hence the reference to the Motif and the Kronos in marketing for the MOX/F and Krome lines. As long as the top-end machines are fulfilling that role, the MI manufacturers are, I suspect, much less bothered than we are about other considerations.

[Song80s]

But every year that goes by without Yamaha doing a major new w/s, I think it increases the chances that they will stand pat/do nothing. And not exceed what Korg has done. So we respectfully disagree with Yamaha speculation.

 

While I would love to see Yamaha return to its synthesis roots, this begs the question: Of you that own the Kronos, are you using it to it's fullest capability, 100% of it's functionality to the point where you need something that "exceed what Korg has done" from Yamaha?

 

It's getting to the point of absurdity really. What can't you do with the current crop of instruments that you need to do?

 

from a practical standpoint, you are mostly correct about the Kronos.

 

But therein lies the ongoing excitement about the Kronos. The only limit is your imagination and skill. So us owners get challenged and when we meet each challenge its gratifying/rewarding.

 

Whats also cool is the Kronos community. uber talented Kronos owners are sharing their skills and knowledge all the time practically for free. So they are taking big bites out of the elephant and sharing it with us. Pardon the analogy.

[Song80s]

The truth is probably that they're still selling boatloads of MOXFs and really, despite our salivating, this is where the big sales battleground is, and always has been.

 

The market as a whole is limited the top end is _extremely_ limited. Once a few pros have snapped up theirs, and maybe the backline companies have acquired a few, who's left to sell to, other than a few select weekend warriors with deep pockets?

 

Arguably, the main role of any company's 'flagship' model has always been to drive sales of lower-end items, hence the reference to the Motif and the Kronos in marketing for the MOX/F and Krome lines. As long as the top-end machines are fulfilling that role, the MI manufacturers are, I suspect, much less bothered than we are about other considerations.

 

I think you have nailed it. These cos are very smart about identifying the market potential of high end ( over $3000) workstations. Plus to spin out a new groundbreaking w/s is an expensive undertaking for any co. Lets for argument sake state the budget for this project is $ 1 million US. So the marketplace has to be there for ROI purposes.

 

As we play with another #, lets state the total marketplace for high end w/s is only 100,000 units. The Kronos has sold 25,000 or 25% of the marketplace.

I don't think this figure is far off.

 

My wild guess is that the Motif ( XF,XS)has sold 60,000 but some expert input would be useful.

 

So this is challenge for Yamaha. They don't want to disenfranchise there very loyal Motif base. But a new ( and expensive) sound engine(s) could essentially do this. And if they have a winning profit maker with the Motif product family, I can see their slow reluctance with a groundbreaker.

[ElmerJFudd]

It's true, they don't sell nearly as many high end boards as the trickle down tech models.

[allan_evett]

But every year that goes by without Yamaha doing a major new w/s, I think it increases the chances that they will stand pat/do nothing. And not exceed what Korg has done. So we respectfully disagree with Yamaha speculation.

 

While I would love to see Yamaha return to its synthesis roots, this begs the question: Of you that own the Kronos, are you using it to it's fullest capability, 100% of it's functionality to the point where you need something that "exceed what Korg has done" from Yamaha?

 

It's getting to the point of absurdity really. What can't you do with the current crop of instruments that you need to do?

 

Good points, Jim. I have a Kronos 61; along with being a great go-to instrument for cover band gigging, it has a lot of rooms I want to visit further, and some I've yet to explore. So I can't see the point of Yamaha attempting to duplicate that. How would they convince buyers that their particular version of the Kronos is better ?

 

An expert user/programmer of Yamaha keyboards offered an observation to me a couple of years back: He believed that Yamaha's next step in keyboards would be something that either expands upon a more recent sound generating technology (SCM based modeling, granular, etc..), or offers some very new and inovative ways of utilizing technology that's already in play; it might be a combination of both. And I find that idea preferable to seeing an imitation of what already exists. In the meantime, between their latest digital pianos and everything that has evolved from the Motif, Yamaha has a lot of solid bases covered.

[David Emm]

The bottom line issue, to me, is really this: what can any of these companies do that hasn't already been done? I know, that's overly broad, but is granular synthesis or bigger DSP for a fancier physical modeling section going to set the field aflame? For ages, it was all about More, but there is no practical brick wall stopping us from doing essentially "anything" now. The form really has come to follow the function. I used to think that the base design for a Big S "Synth" would never really gel, but things like decent pianos and big strings are standard now, subjectively. Either you want that orch-in-the-box experience for live or compositional use or you are into sound design. You can do both with a flagship if you dig in, but with DAWs and lesser synths in place now, that $3-6k seems like more of a stretch to justify. I used my Korg 01Wfd actively for almost 20 YEARS. I can easily see an XF8 lasting that long. Besides, a 'flagship' can be the latest Nord stage piano, the XF8 or Roland's killer V-Synth GT, despite the vast differences. It depends on your central goals.

 

So IMO, Yamaha sees no real market need for a new workstation at present, but remember those 3 mockups of smaller Yamaha synths that did PM, FM and etc.? It would be a far more sensible and profitable move to zag and offer those. That seems more practical and likely than any new big kahuna model.

 

[Jazzmammal]

What keyboard specific signature sounds have been used extensively in modern music over the last 5-10 years that would prompt Yamaha to do the same thing again?

 

Interesting that no one has answered the question I posted. I didn't throw it out there as bait or anything, I don't know the answer either. But these latest posts are basically saying the answer is "nothing". It's been done, everything anybody would need to produce any kind of sound is already there and if it isn't it's available in a DAW with sound libraries.

 

Bob