Need help/suggestions with live sound for DP

[Danny Linguini]

So I gigged my CP4 for the first time last night, and I was not happy at all with the sound out of the ZLX-12p. Sounded like it was being played through a shoe box. I thought I had heard that blah sound before, especially when pushing the volume a bit, but I'd always chalked it up to being more to the side of the speaker than in front of it. Last night I made sure to position myself where I could hear what was coming out, and what I heard was (to me) simply terrible. Like a loud, muffled midrange with no depth and no brightness. I messed with the mixer EQ all night and maybe improved it moderately, but I was never happy with it. Acoustic guitar and vocals were ok, but I just could not get the piano to sound anywhere close to host it sounds at home through studio monitors. There were no complaints from my partner or anybody else, but hell, I just spent almost $2k on a keyboard to improve what I hear, and I was pretty deeply disappointed.

 

Today I spent a good bit of time with the DSP settings in the ZLX (running my MP6 directly in), and while I did manage to improve it a bit, I'm still not 100% satisfied because I cannot EQ out that muddy, muffled tone. I don't remember my pianos through this speaker sounding so shitty; though I admit last night was probably the first time I payed extra close attention to it.

 

Really not sure what to do now. I also have a pair of Behringer B210D's, which sound much cleaner but lack all the bottom that I want. The difference there is that they are big-amps, while the EV is a single amp. I could get the Behringer B1200D to go with the B210D, or just replace the EV with something like the Yamaha DBR12 or other bike-amped 12. I've also been looking long and hard at the SSv3, but I have serious reservations about how that will work for our setup.

 

I'm in a duo, and we usually play smaller to medium sized pubs (like maybe 80-100 people?). The size of my keyboard rig and sound system is manageable now, and I'd like to keep it that way. Any of you who play smaller venues, either solo, duo or trio, what are you happiest with for DP amplification?

[SpaceNorman]

While there are lots of forumites who'd disagree with my approach - my ears aren't truly happy unless I monitor my rig in stereo. I use a pair of Yamaha DSR112's. I could easily get away with something small/less powerful - especially in smaller rooms. However, I needed an amplification solution that would work for pretty much any situation. The DSR112s sound great when they're turned down low in small venues .. yet have the headroom to still sound great if/when the volume goes up.

[GDP]

I agree with Space Norman. I cannot get happy with mono monitoring and I have tried. 2 elevated K10's work for me....however I do send a mono feed to the FOH, I have no control over what they do anyhow.

[Tusker]

I use a pair of QSC K8s and am happy with their clear tone for piano and for female voice in small rooms. I play with an acoustic bass player so bottom is not a huge requirement for me, but they have more than adequate bottom for piano.

 

Like Space Norman I value some extra power because it translates into clean sound at low volumes.

[JeffLearman]

Frankly, smaller woofers should be better for keyboards, as long as they're loud enough. I use 2-way 12" (passive JBL wedges), but I'm sure I'd prefer the sound of more smaller drivers. I don't think K8's would cut it for the situations where I play, though I wish everyone would turn down a bit so they would be!

 

I'm sorry to hear any disappointment with CP4 and ZLX-12p, since I have the former, and might someday find room in the budget for the latter. But I'd definitely go stereo.

 

BTW, the first few times I used my CP4 I had some problems with the sound. As it turns out, the outputs are quite hot and while my input peak lights weren't lighting up, I'm convinced I was overloading my mixer's line inputs. I turned the gain down and things improved considerably.

 

There's something that doesn't quite add up about that, I admit. I've turned down the input sensitivity AND backed off on the CP4's main volume, with everything else at the same level, and mysteriously it's loud enough. I have a sneaky suspicion that before, with the gain too high, it was distorting and causing lost headroom, causing us (myself and another keyboard player at the local jam, a guy whose judgment I trust) to turn up, but getting more distortion rather than more volume. Turning DOWN made it louder! Anyway, that's how it seems.

 

So, be sure you're not blasting your speaker's inputs. This is "live sound 101" I realize, but it's easy to goof and not be aware of it.

[Danny Linguini]

Interesting info, definitely things for me to think on.

 

I'm pretty sure I'm not overdriving the CP4 -- I'm always watching the meters to be sure we're not close to clipping. Also, when I ran the MP6 direct into the ZLX today, I immediately heard the same muddiness, even at very low levels. So what I think I'm hearing here is maybe I need to dig the B210's out of mothballs. Last time I used one, I only used one (very small place). I think next time I'll take both and run full stereo (I did run quasi-stereo last night, pushing both L and R into the two inputs on one ZLX -- no difference when I ran the keyboard mono, so I know that wasn't the issue).

 

For some reason I never considered smaller-is-better for the keys live, but I guess I should have because the Mackie 6" studio monitors at home sound absolutely amazing. Heck, maybe I should drop down to 8's! Lots of ideas to work with.

[Reezekeys]

At the risk of once again opening up the dreaded "stereo vs mono" discussion, I would only say that in my experience, if you're summing a stereo-sampled piano to mono it's probably not going to sound good. Looks like you already have experience with stereo as you mention using two Behringers. It's entirely possible that just getting a second ZLX-12P will change your viewpoint. I can only second another post here that with two QSC K8s I am as happy as I've ever been with a live rig for my acoustic piano sound. Then again you'll often read comments online about people preferring the EVs to the QSCs, so who's to say? Best of luck finding the solution that works for you.

 

And as far as any idea that 8" woofers mean deficient bass IMNSHO this is complete bullpuckery. Speaking from my own experience, two K8s have plenty of bass response. Not to mention that a natural acoustic piano sound does not require tons of output at very low frequencies anyway.

[timwat]

My anecdotal experience - gigging the CP4 for acoustic piano sound on an acoustic gig (duo, trio, or with singer)? The solution that works for me is two Yamaha DXR8s. Just one? I'll end up sticking to Rhodes patches all night.

 

World of difference running one cab vs. two.

 

Suggestion to the OP. If you can, run over to the local GC and try playing a CP4 (or, in a pinch, ANY digital piano) through one EV and then through two. Or if they don't stock the speaker you have, try a similar unit with a smaller woofer from any of the likely suspects (QSC, Yamaha, whatever they've got in stock). I'm betting you'll consider adding another 34.3 lbs. to your rig.

 

[BlueAndGreen]

I am not thrilled with a single ZLX-12p and my Kurzweil piano patches. Just today I tried both and it is much better. Sometimes I think I should start looking at RCF or Fulcrum because I have to punch through two guitar stacks.

[CEB]

If you believe your piano patches straight out of the DP are decent and if you are playing through front of house PA and your keyboard monitor stinks you just need to suck it up and play the gig as is unless you have and outboard EQ that only shapes the sound of your stage amplification.

 

If you tune your sound for the stage monitors you may end up with an icepick out front.

 

I have used a DBX 2x15 EQ before just to tweak my stage monitors while having no impact on the FOH feed.

[TomKittel]

Why don't you just get a CPS Spacestation? Check out the huge KC thread about it. Don't say nobody told you ;-)

 

It will give you the best live DP sound you can get. Forget about inexpensive active speakers of all sorts for DP. All of them sound more or less boxy and you will never get proper stereo if you don't sit in the sweet spot which is difficult. The much-vaunted QSC K speakers never cut it for my DP sounds. Spacestation is the swiss knife for stereo keyboard amping on stage. Nothing beats it. Period.

[Six-string-man]

I A/B'd a Nord through various speakers and P/A's about 18 months ago. The acoustic piano's were the hardest thing to get sounding right.

 

One of the systems I tried was the ZLX 12p, and the ap's were like meh. I then tried the ELX 112p, and the difference was night and day, I was really impressed with them. YMMV.

 

Also,check out the Line 6 L2T, although these are bigger, heavier, and more expensive.

 

 

SSM

[Danny Linguini]

Why don't you just get a CPS Spacestation? Check out the huge KC thread about it. Don't say nobody told you ;-)

 

It will give you the best live DP sound you can get. Forget about inexpensive active speakers of all sorts for DP. All of them sound more or less boxy and you will never get proper stereo if you don't sit in the sweet spot which is difficult. The much-vaunted QSC K speakers never cut it for my DP sounds. Spacestation is the swiss knife for stereo keyboard amping on stage. Nothing beats it. Period.

I still have not ruled that out, especially now that a few here have opened my eyes (and ears) to 'bigger ain't necessarily better'. I only have two reservations, both kind of amplified (no pun intended) by the price tag: 1, my main speaker(s) is/are my duo's PA for two vocals, acoustic guitar, and now drum machine in addition to the DP, so even though we don't play all that loud, it does have a good sized load to carry; and 2, we're usually set up in pretty tight quarters, and if my partner ends up too close to the side speaker, all I'll hear all night is his pissing and moaning about the sound, which could make me finally cave in and smash his bass amp over his head. Because the places we play are pretty small, separate monitors are just not practical, so we depend on what we can hear out of the PA. Now I know that can usually be rectified by careful speaker placement; I just don't relish the thought of all the bitching if I don't get it exactly right. Then again, hour hasn't said anything about what I think is a crappy sounding piano, so I could just be making an issue out of nothing.

 

But anyway, the SS is still a consideration, and actually moving higher up the list of possibilities the longer that thread gets. For right now, I'm going to do some work with two cabs, starting with the 10" Behringers, which I've been pretty happy with in the past. I really don't want to lug around two EV's, as they're going to need two tripods, where I can get away with a dual mount on one tripod with the Behringers. If I'm not happy with that, I will most likely take the plunge on the SS.

[AnotherScott]

For some reason I never considered smaller-is-better for the keys live, but I guess I should have because the Mackie 6" studio monitors at home sound absolutely amazing. Heck, maybe I should drop down to 8's! Lots of ideas to work with.

I think the EV ZXa1 sounds great for piano, even though only an 8". I have never heard the ZLX. I know it has gotten some good reviews, but one thing I've kept an eye out for but haven't seen is an opinion from anyone who has actually managed to compare the ZLX to the ZXa1.

 

As for stereo vs. mono, based on other threads here, it seems like the CP4 is a particularly good choice for mono playback, not suffering the great loss of quality that some other boards do when going from stereo to mono. So while I wouldn't entirely rule it out as a factor, I suspect it's not the real source of your issue.

[Danny Linguini]

For some reason I never considered smaller-is-better for the keys live, but I guess I should have because the Mackie 6" studio monitors at home sound absolutely amazing. Heck, maybe I should drop down to 8's! Lots of ideas to work with.

I think the EV ZXa1 sounds great for piano, even though only an 8". I have never heard the ZLX. I know it has gotten some good reviews, but one thing I've kept an eye out for but haven't seen is an opinion from anyone who has actually managed to compare the ZLX to the ZXa1.

 

As for stereo vs. mono, based on other threads here, it seems like the CP4 is a particularly good choice for mono playback, not suffering the great loss of quality that some other boards do when going from stereo to mono. So while I wouldn't entirely rule it out as a factor, I suspect it's not the real source of your issue.

The vocals, acoustic guitar, and even the drum machine sound pretty decent out of one ZLX. It's just the piano that I'm taking issue with. And it's not just the CP4 -- I also ran the MP6 through it at home and got the same result. Mono or stereo, didn't matter. Although I haven't yet tried two ZLX's, but that's sort of pointless because I have no desire to drag two ZLX's out to gigs. And both those boards sound wonderful through the studio monitors, so I know my problem is with the ZLX. Again, what I think I'm learning here is that smaller (within reason) is better for keys, which is kind of counter to everything I thought I knew after all these years. :idk

[AnotherScott]

The vocals, acoustic guitar, and even the drum machine sound pretty decent out of one ZLX. It's just the piano that I'm taking issue with. And it's not just the CP4 -- I also ran the MP6 through it at home and got the same result.

...

what I think I'm learning here is that smaller (within reason) is better for keys, which is kind of counter to everything I thought I knew after all these years.

Piano is the hardest thing to get sounding right. I settled on the ZXa1 after also hearing the QSC K8, Yamaha DXR10, JBL PRX612M, RCF 310/410. None of these are bad speakers, and they even have some advantages over the ZXa1, but to my ears, for piano, the ZXa1 was best of the bunch. The JBL PRX625 was even better, but it's a lot more to carry around. And compared to the EV's single 8" woofer, the JBL has two 15" woofers! Really, I don't think there's any rule of thumb about speaker sizes... it's just one of many design considerations, most of which are invisible to the consumer.

[Al Quinn]

For the type of gig you've described I find two powered speakers on poles running stereo work best (basically a small PA). Of all the sounds you're amplifying the acoustic piano is the most challenging. I've listened to a lot of powered speakers and have also owned several. I had K8s and for AP they sounded good at low to moderate volume (I was using a Nord Stage 2 then). I sold the K8s and bought K10s. They sounded better (i.e., fuller mainly), but again at low to moderate volume. I sold the K8s and K10s because they didn't sound good above a moderate volume and they lacked the warmth and realism I was seeking for jazz gigs. I now have RCF TT08A's which sound great. The good news it they're light, small, clear, and loud; the bad news it they're expensive. My CP4 is scheduled for delivery today so I'm looking forward to hearing it through the TT08A's. Along the way I also checked out a lot of other speakers. I liked the ELX112P for AP (it sounded warm), didn't like the ZLX12P, and liked the TT08A's best. Of course this very subjective stuff and I'm just sharing my perspective.

[Tusker]

You've got lots of good information here. I'll just chime in on a couple of generalities:

 

- Make sure your piano sound is not overly bass hyped as many DPs are. (they add bass boost inside every aspect of the DP signal chain it seems)

 

- Piano sounds are very unique, and there is some matching of specific piano sample to a specific speaker to be done.

 

- I think I "generally" prefer the sound of 8 and 10 inch speakers to 12 inch speakers among the mid-priced 2 way powered speakers. The exception in my experience were some RTF 12s. They sounded flat and neutral.

 

- Try some eq, and good luck!

 

[Danny Linguini]

You've got lots of good information here. I'll just chime in on a couple of generalities:

 

- Make sure your piano sound is not overly bass hyped as many DPs are. (they add bass boost inside every aspect of the DP signal chain it seems)

 

- Piano sounds are very unique, and there is some matching of specific piano sample to a specific speaker to be done.

 

- I think I "generally" prefer the sound of 8 and 10 inch speakers to 12 inch speakers among the mid-priced 2 way powered speakers. The exception in my experience were some RTF 12s. They sounded flat and neutral.

 

- Try some eq, and good luck!

Thanks. I'm pretty sure the CP4 isn't overly bass-hyped -- if anything the MP6 is more so than the CP4. I've also messed with EQ's, and while I've gotten some improvement, there's an inherent muffly muddiness in the ZLX with the DP's that I just can't get rid of.

[Polkahero]

The vocals, acoustic guitar, and even the drum machine sound pretty decent out of one ZLX. It's just the piano that I'm taking issue with. And it's not just the CP4 -- I also ran the MP6 through it at home and got the same result.

...

what I think I'm learning here is that smaller (within reason) is better for keys, which is kind of counter to everything I thought I knew after all these years.

Piano is the hardest thing to get sounding right. I settled on the ZXa1 after also hearing the QSC K8, Yamaha DXR10, JBL PRX612M, RCF 310/410. None of these are bad speakers, and they even have some advantages over the ZXa1, but to my ears, for piano, the ZXa1 was best of the bunch. The JBL PRX625 was even better, but it's a lot more to carry around. And compared to the EV's single 8" woofer, the JBL has two 15" woofers! Really, I don't think there's any rule of thumb about speaker sizes... it's just one of many design considerations, most of which are invisible to the consumer.

 

I think I'm going to get a pair of ZXA1's to replace my Yamaha Stagepas speakers at some point. Have you ever tried Yamaha DBR10 speakers, Scott? Think they sound similar to the DXR series?

[rickp]

. . . there's an inherent muffly muddiness in the ZLX with the DP's that I just can't get rid of.

If I correctly have in mind the muffly muddiness you're hearing, I've had some luck in making that tolerable EQ'ing R and L signals in separate mixer channels to allow EQ'ing the L channel differently than the R (rather than using a R/L stereo mixer strip that uses one EQ for both signals), with the caveat of keeping in mind what CEB wrote above:

 

If you believe your piano patches straight out of the DP are decent . . . through front of house PA and your keyboard monitor stinks you just need to suck it up and play the gig as is unless you have and outboard EQ that only shapes the sound of your stage amplification.

 

If you tune your sound for the stage monitors you may end up with an icepick out front.

With the CP4 though, you can use the onboard EQ in conjunction with FOH EQ to get good FOH sound, then use the 1/4 outs to a mixer (ideally with sweepable mids) to feed and EQ your monitors. The quickest way I've found to improve muddy or muffled sound on the fly is to then EQ one side at a time: first mute the other channel; leave bass and treble centered; max the volume of the sweepable mid and use the mid sweep knob to identify the freq that sounds the WORST; leave the freq knob at that point and decrease the mid volume knob until the mid sounds best to you; then increase or decrease bass and/or treble levels as needed a bit. Repeat for the other channel. What I've generally ended up with is a substantial reduction in the 350to500 mids with a tiny bit of bass increase on right channel, and a similar but not as severe reduction of 300to450 mids and a bit of treble increase in left channel.

 

 

 

 

[CEB]

Re: EV ZXA1s

 

I recommend a pair of ZXA1s whether you run stereo or dual mono. I've done both. The pair pushes more air resulting in better low end while keeping the bass tight still. This especially good if you are covering left hand bass which I do quite a lot.

 

 

[area51recording]

Yes....300-500 is real problematic for DPs it seems to me as well. Also in most cases a pretty good LF rolloff, as the bass on these things always seems wildly boosted compared to a real piano for some reason....wonder why it is they do that?

[DaBous]

I reccomend a pair of ZXA1s whether you run stereo or dual mono. I've done both. The pair pushes more air resulting in better low end while keeping the bass tight still. This especially good if you are covering left bass which I do quite a lot.

 

This is what I use also and sounds great for AP live.

And, because these are < 20 lbs each you can mount 2 of them on a single pole, using the On-Stage Stands Adapter, so you don't have to find space for 2 pole stands on stage.

 

I put these on a hydraulic lift speaker pole so I can raise / lower them with one finger. Easy on the back...

 

[Polkahero]

I reccomend a pair of ZXA1s whether you run stereo or dual mono. I've done both. The pair pushes more air resulting in better low end while keeping the bass tight still. This especially good if you are covering left bass which I do quite a lot.

 

This is what I use also and sounds great for AP live.

And, because these are < 20 lbs each you can mount 2 of them on a single pole, using the On-Stage Stands Adapter, so you don't have to find space for 2 pole stands on stage.

 

I put these on a hydraulic lift speaker pole so I can raise / lower them with one finger. Easy on the back...

 

Good to hear about these speakers but. . .mounting both on a single pole?! Doesn't that kill the whole stereo imaging effect? I just plan on using these as floor wedges like I do now with my Stagepas speakers.

[timwat]

A smaller consideration I've found.

 

Whether running stereo or mono, having two speakers running rather than one provides one big benefit to the room - girth of soundstage.

 

The piano is in real life a very large point source. It's not naturally "stereo" in any traditional definition of that term. But playing piano in real life means I'm in command of a large, substantial organic animal that whispers, roars and commands attention.

 

That's really difficult to duplicate with one, relatively small point source PA speaker. What I've found with two speakers (even running mono) is not the "stereo image" that lends authenticity, but the sheer girth of soundstage (as audiophiles sometimes describe it) that lends the illusion of an actual big, fat wood beast in the room.

 

Does that sound like something you all have found, or have I been inhaling too much funny powder again?

[cphollis]

A smaller consideration I've found.

 

Whether running stereo or mono, having two speakers running rather than one provides one big benefit to the room - girth of soundstage.

 

The piano is in real life a very large point source. It's not naturally "stereo" in any traditional definition of that term. But playing piano in real life means I'm in command of a large, substantial organic animal that whispers, roars and commands attention.

 

That's really difficult to duplicate with one, relatively small point source PA speaker. What I've found with two speakers (even running mono) is not the "stereo image" that lends authenticity, but the sheer girth of soundstage (as audiophiles sometimes describe it) that lends the illusion of an actual big, fat wood beast in the room.

 

Does that sound like something you all have found, or have I been inhaling too much funny powder again?

 

Same here -- I've found that two dispersed speakers greatly contributes to the aural illusion that there's a real piano being used -- especially if your equipment is good. And if you use stereo voice (leslie, chorus, pans) on your other instruments, so much the better. Since we usually just run vocals through the PA, I'm responsible for what the audience hears, keyboard-wise.

 

One of them behind me, one at the back corner of the other side of the stage. The band likes it as well. Or I use the SSv3, which does an admirable job of sounding "big" from a point source.

 

You must really enjoy posting those avatars

 

-- Chuck

[Bill H.]

The vocals, acoustic guitar, and even the drum machine sound pretty decent out of one ZLX. It's just the piano that I'm taking issue with. And it's not just the CP4 -- I also ran the MP6 through it at home and got the same result. Mono or stereo, didn't matter. Although I haven't yet tried two ZLX's, but that's sort of pointless because I have no desire to drag two ZLX's out to gigs.

So ok you're running the whole band through just one ZLX to the room, and that's it? There's no other PA going to the room, or personal monitor for your piano?

 

I honestly don't think you're going to EQ your way out of this. And I have a hard time blaming it on the ZLX cab too.

 

You are using a mono piano preset on the CP4 right?

 

 

 

 

[timwat]

 

You must really enjoy posting those avatars

 

-- Chuck

 

Actually, Brett and a few others have encouraged me to update them...and, well, being a single, eligible keyboard player...

[dsetto]

girth of soundstage. The piano is in real life a very large point source. But playing piano in real life means I'm in command of a large, substantial organic animal that whispers, roars and commands attention.

Sounds reasonable. Makes me think how a piano soundboard/rim is larger than a single 8" or 10" speaker/cabinet. So, at least 2, dispersed, even when mono, sends more sound balls to bounce off the walls & stuff in the room, begetting dynamic life. (SSv3 applies. In fact, it's mid-side arrangement promotes this.)

Dual mono PA's, instead of a pair doing stereo, sounds like a good thing. I kinda think two mono PA's where one's got the mono AP, and the other's got solely the reverb of that AP may sound enveloping, and steer clear from stereo problems.