Heads-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back

[minorguy]

i thought the ss3 mono line out was just an unfiltered pass-thru sum of L&R - it shouldnt be affected by any knob settings or levels?

That's what I would've assumed at first. But it is affected. I guess the advantage is that you can control both at once proportionally.

did we do the obvious and check/swap the cable, check the K10 input set to line using a different signal source (plug your board directly to the K10? if its not the K10, and not the cable, maybe there's a defect internal to ss3 causing signal loss.

There's nothing wrong. It works fine. I was just assuming that if I turned the K10 up to 10 0'clock or so, I should here it easily. But not necessarily if it was being masked by hum/buzz and if the SS level wasn't very high to begin with. Yeah, I didn't realize then that the SS level knob controls the sub output too.

[MotiDave]

huh, i'd thought the mono out was a pass-through, not controlled by ss3 control knobs ("level"). this is from CPS website:

 

The SUB output is an unfiltered full frequency range signal that is a combination of both the Left and Right signals (or the mono mix).

 

It is a line level signal suitable for driving a powered sub woofer, sending as a "mono" signal to the FOH mixer, another to drive an additional stage monitor (e.g. to the far side of a stage).

[minorguy]

Well, I don't think it gets much simpler than this. I'm going from the SS sub out to the K10 and I hear both of them. I turn the level knob of the SS all the way down and they both go silent. So unless I'm crazy...(um, which has been hypothesized)

 

I think the implication is, if you're using the sub out for FOH you'll want to be mindful about adjusting the SS level if you need more on stage.

[Aspen]

Aspen, I guess you didn't see my email but that sound I got a while back happened again intermittently--different club, happened when I turned it down, up, unplugged the synth...the only way to stop it was to turn the amp off, wait a minute and turn it back on. Maybe it was picking up some interference from a blender or something in the kitchen but I couldn't really hear anything.

 

Do you think that Eb Tech unit would help? It was extremely noticeable to the band and the club owner. Thanks.

 

I think I did read that email Doug, sorry if I forgot to reply...but frankly I was scratching my head. As I recall, you said it could not be recreated in following gigs, so it's really hard to find and fix ...what cannot be seen or heard when you are looking for solutions.

 

Maybe that Eb tech unit may help...if it's coming in on the AC leg. I think it probably adds a capacitor to the grounding leg of your 3 way AC supply (kind of a soft ground lift)...which cannot hurt anything...but it would be hard to tell what fixes this without knowing the actual cause.

 

Many venues have funky AC wiring, so the ground potential is all over the place and everything becomes an antenna.

 

I sent this to Duke, our design engineer and Yoda of all trouble shooters...he sent you a email today with some detective approaches, a few simple cheap tools that can help you trace the source of the noise...which must be external to the SS3 (or else it would do it all the time). Once we find the culprit, then we can take steps to eliminate him.

[Aspen]

Al talks about a larger version...

 

... If it comes w/ 12" coax for more low end and a side-speaker solution offering comparable bandwith to the front speakers, that would be much more improvement ...

 

I think I'd rather it keep the small footprint it currently has and use two 10" vertically mounted speakers instead of a single 12. It would be almost the same size as now, just 12" or so taller. Just my 2 cents worth! Aspen seems PLENTY busy keeping up with demand at the moment though...

 

Does anybody have TWO of these? What happens when you stack them?

 

Also, has anybody tried playing a binaural recording through one?

What does that sound like?

 

Interesting suggestion, but stacking 2 transducers creates phase cancellation issues, and a hollowed out MR character...so a single driver is always a purer tone to start with, they just work better and are flatter. But a stack pair can give a bit more horizontal dispersion (not really a problem with our 300 degree design).

 

And yes, there are several guys using two SS3 amps stacked (and spaced apart for more coverage in weird shaped or long rooms), Their reports are located maybe 40+ pages back, and there are several pages devoted to this topic back in season 4, episode 6...not sure what pages those are on...ut maybe one of our volunteer archivists can chime in with page and verse.

 

Synopsis: (assumes same L&R signal to both)

Stacking w/ the top SS3 inverted is best, also OK to angle them and even have one at 180 if you need 360 coverage.

 

Spacing is OK too IF They are well away from each other, best on opposite sides or corners of the room, not like a typical L&R wide stage PA set up.

 

Also, several have used 2 stacked normally IF these are amplifying different material. Specifically the dual SS3 application can be the total bomb if the bottom one does the instruments and/or backing tracks while the top one does all the vocals.. And what a treat for the performers who hear the same mix no matter where they are positioned and also KNOW it is the same mix the audience hears.

 

This is one area where we are still experimenting, and learning, but the potential is huge for a 3D live performance experience...I would like to see a musical done this way.

[Aspen]

Well, I don't think it gets much simpler than this. I'm going from the SS sub out to the K10 and I hear both of them. I turn the level knob of the SS all the way down and they both go silent. So unless I'm crazy...(um, which has been hypothesized)

 

I think the implication is, if you're using the sub out for FOH you'll want to be mindful about adjusting the SS level if you need more on stage.

 

Well yes, the design choice I made was when using the sub post SS3 It would obviously be subject to, and in harmony with, the Master Level control.

 

In this "Sub post SS3" application, we recommend adding just an audible level of sub by adjusting the sub level to compliment (and not over shadow) the SS3. Once that balance is achieved, then the "balance" is maintained as the Master Level is changed...up or down.

 

Of course also there is a KB and a mixer BEFORE he SS3, and those level changes will (obviously) now change the SS3 system volume...but the correct balance b/w SS3 and sub will be maintained.

 

Using the sub output as a FOH send would again mean the sub's FOH send would also be subject to the KB volume changes, and the various Mixer level changes, as well as the SS3 level changes...no way to get around that really.

 

And, I do not see any "new" issue there...that's the way a FOH send usually goes and the FOH mixer just deals with it. Of course if the KB has separate outs, or if your are using separate sends from your mixer...then the SS3 level changes would not affect the FOH (but the KB level changes still would!)

 

And, BTW, the sub source is exactly as described on our site;

 

" The SUB output is an unfiltered full frequency range signal that is a combination of both the Left and Right signals (or the mono mix).

 

It is a line level signal suitable for driving a powered sub woofer, sending as a "mono" signal to the FOH mixer, another to drive an additional stage monitor (e.g. to the far side of a stage)."

 

So you see, "it's 3 mints in one!"

 

[rockinredeye]

Having vocals in a separate SS3 sounds interesting. I have a single SS2 that I love but have only put keyboards through it. With the stereo field so large, is there a feedback problem, ever? Aspen doesn't have any complaints about it, but how loud could the vocals get before feedback? Just asking because I really don't know and may want to put instruments and vocals through mine as a solo at a small club that is long and narrow, so I might need to turn it up quite a bit. Anybody?

[Manhunter]

I've used the SS3 in smaller settings for jazz and larger ones for big band and really pleased with the results - funnily enough nobody asks about the amp, all the interest has been around the great sounding piano!! - 10+years old Yamaha P120!!

 

Out tonight for the first time with a (much) louder funk/soul band so looking forward to hearing the SS in this context - out doors venue on a bandstand (The Pantiles, Tunbridge Wells) with foh pa playing to a few thousand people.

 

Dave

[Danny Linguini]

The Seismic Audio Really-Mini-Tremor 10" powered sub arrived today. Kind of limited in features compared to even the Behringer B1200D -- just one mono in and a mono through -- which means it's best suited for using it from the sub-out on the SS. And I gotta say, it works pretty nice. Just in my little music room, with the SS turned a hair past 9:00, I've got to turn the sub volume up almost all the way to hear it. But when you hear it, it's really quite lovely. No idea yet how loud it gets if you open up the SS a bit, because I still value my hearing. And my walls and windows and outside shingles and relatively clean police record.

 

The difference with the piano isn't all that huge, other than a little more fullness in the lowest notes, where the SS rolls off. The real beauty is with the drum machine -- the kick drums now have some real kick. I probably won't use it in the smaller venues, but I'll definitely use it in anything medium and up. The SS with the sub isn't going to blow the walls out of your bigger clubs and such much more than the SS alone, but when all you have is the SS and no other FOH, this little sub really rounds out the sound nicely.

 

I also have to reiterate -- I am continually impressed with how loud this little SS can get. And when it's loud, it's still amazingly clean.

 

Here are a few pics to give an idea of its size. Very easy to move around, probably about the same weight as a typical 12" powered PA cab, and just a slightly bigger footprint than the SS -- about 1" more all around. I like it.

 

http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/n631/18to12fitty/Music%20n%20Keys/IMG_20150806_184131_zpsasdkgldc.jpg

 

http://i1143.photobucket.com/albums/n631/18to12fitty/Music%20n%20Keys/IMG_20150806_184111_zpsixfqlk7w.jpg

 

[cphollis]

Nice rig -- let us know how it sounds during the gig!

[Aspen]

Nice rig -- let us know how it sounds during the gig!

 

+1 :>)

[agitato]

If you're running a stereo dp through a stereo mixer, like the yamaha mg06 to the ss, and you want to run one mic for a vocalist, do you need to somehow run that stereo, also, so the singer's voice will be dispersed throughout the room like the dp? Or would a regular single channel mono mic be sufficient? Would like to not have carry a small separate pa for one vocalist.

[Danny Linguini]

If you're running a stereo dp through a stereo mixer, like the yamaha mg06 to the ss, and you want to run one mic for a vocalist, do you need to somehow run that stereo, also, so the singer's voice will be dispersed throughout the room like the dp? Or would a regular single channel mono mic be sufficient? Would like to not have carry a small separate pa for one vocalist.

I can let you know in a few weeks -- this is basically what I'll be doing live, using the SS as my PA. I always add a little reverb in the mixer, so I'm expecting that will be enough to 'liven up' the L/R mix to let the SS work its magic. I might mess with the pan a bit, too, and see if it makes any difference on the sound width. Actually, there's no reason why I can't experiment with this at home -- I might have to plug in the mic tonight and see how many inhabitants in can drive out of the house in the process.

[Danny Linguini]

Hey Aspen, here's a thought --

 

A few guys here have been asking if you're going to design a bigger SS. How about designing your own compact sub that compliments the SS3 rather than a whole new unit that would compete with it? You've done enough mixing and matching to have an idea of what configurations work best with the SS. And you've got the perfect vehicle right here to do some market research to see what features players want most. Call it a Substation!

 

Personally, I think an ideal solution would be the size and power of this little SA Really-mini-tremor, with the functionality of the Behringer B1200D (stereo ins, passthru outs, and hi-pass filtered outs) that actually works as it should (i.e., no loss of gain in the chain, as you've observed with the B1200D). But that's just me -- survey 100 other guys and you'll probably get 187 other preferences.

 

Just a thought -- I'd be curious to hear what others think of the idea.

 

[MotiDave]

Hey Aspen, here's a thought --

 

A few guys here have been asking if you're going to design a bigger SS. How about designing your own compact sub that compliments the SS3 rather than a whole new unit that would compete with it? You've done enough mixing and matching to have an idea of what configurations work best with the SS. And you've got the perfect vehicle right here to do some market research to see what features players want most. Call it a Substation!

 

Personally, I think an ideal solution would be the size and power of this little SA Really-mini-tremor, with the functionality of the Behringer B1200D (stereo ins, passthru outs, and hi-pass filtered outs) that actually works as it should (i.e., no loss of gain in the chain, as you've observed with the B1200D). But that's just me -- survey 100 other guys and you'll probably get 187 other preferences.

 

Just a thought -- I'd be curious to hear what others think of the idea.

Bear, as one of the "bigger" proponents, i'll just describe what my ideal next offering would be:

 

- same "single box" concept - we don't want a secondary sub or bass cab, period. it defeats the entire "stereo in one box" conceptual notion if we need a second box anyway. there's infinite solutions if one is going to carry two speakers and now we're arguing about effectiveness vs absolute differences.

 

- fuller LF response than, we will argue, any 8" driver can deliver (e.g. we want a 10 or 12 and probably a larger side firing bidirectional driver)

- higher max SPL (more "headroom") - larger pwer amp(s)

 

we love the concept of ss3 - we just play in Spinal Tap and we need it to go all the way to 11. a thousand pages in, its obvious this product is perfect for a huge group of users. i think thats awesome, you all are going to fund Aspen's next wave of R&D.

 

but now, is he diverted from the truly noble task of SS-bigbrother to design a substation?

 

beats me. on the one hand there's alot of people out there buying a secondary LF box to compliment their SS3, the market has been speaking throughout the thread. But there are a ton of mono LF options from uber cheap to mid to uber expensive, the market is flooded with these options. His ss3 found a nitch no one is eactly in, that allows him to capture enough margin to cover his R&D investment without millions of units shipped. Could he compete in that flooded market of low margin LF options? be tough imo. he'll pull some ss3 loyalists along to his substation, those that didn't already buy/have a LF solution. but the Berringers and such are working on 100x to 1000x volulmes and more, they generate efficiencies both in investment amortization and componentry costs ... be tough?

 

how big is the SS-big bro market? beats me ... I only know one guy personally

[Aspen]

If you're running a stereo dp through a stereo mixer, like the yamaha mg06 to the ss, and you want to run one mic for a vocalist, do you need to somehow run that stereo

 

I always add a little reverb in the mixer, so I'm expecting that will be enough to 'liven up' the L/R mix to let the SS work its magic. I might mess with the pan a bit, too, and see if it makes any difference on the sound width.

 

Sleeping Bear is on the right track here; a bit of verb (I like Hall reverb for vocals) activates the side speaker, which in turn manipulates the Front system and the 3D image is created.

 

However if no reverb available then the vocal is mono, and simply comes thru the front speaker alone....but still sounds good. Remember the SS3 is a tri-amp front system, so you have level adjustments on both the MF and HF components...so you can dial it in to be very "flat".

 

Speaking to the question above of feedback...yes, that is always the issue in reflective venues, less so in those carpeted rooms...but I have found the SS3 is not very prone to squeal unless you are really cranking.

 

The softer, wider 300 degree dispersion is a double edge sword here; less "beamy" means it's energy is spread softly to fill the room and so mic placement relative to the SS3 position is less critical, but on the other hand it's wide pattern will reach the mic no matter whee you are...but that doesn't always mean feedback.

 

Every mic has a point of feedback based on the physical layout and the SPL level of the speaker. The SS3 is no exception to that rule; it can be made to squeal at some point. However in practice (and I'd have a BUNCH of that) it is amazingly tolerant to feedback issues, and I have many CPS Family users doing solo and due gigs w/ vocals for years with the MK2, and now the sonically "flatter" and improved SS3 with amazing success stories. Some have shared those gig reports here on this thread; Season 2, episode 22.

 

That said, you can optimize the conditions to reduce feedback propensity by following a few CPS rules (or should I say; CPS Rules!):

1) do not have your mic directly facing into the Front speaker coax, that coax MF driver is rather powerful and you don't want to temp it by setting up squarely on axis. You can position the SS3 behind you, but try and achieve a 45 degree angle to your mic placement...that will minimize the issue.

2) They say "distance makes the heart grow fonder". It's the same with a mic and a speaker...distance is your friend. The SS3's Omnidirectional dispersion "softens the blow" and the mic is far less likely to feedback if you can place 5-7 feet away at a minimum....the farther away equates to the louder you can crank it. Be creative, remember you'll like your KB image better too if your 10-12' feet away and off axis.

 

Take a look again at those videos on the CPS site, many have vocals and they are fairly hot in that big room, certainly "lounge level loud". Specifically, listen (with headphones please...not laptop speakers!) to Chamberlain Trip (The Weight), Rich & Shawn, Sara Routh, Andre Berry, and the CPS Big and Wide band in that large hotel hall. Notice the performers are using the SS3 behind them or to the side "off axis" to their mics, and also the mics are at least 7+ feet away.

 

In this position they can crank the system up pretty loud and get a great monitor benefit. In the case of multiple singers doing harmony, this is a dream system because they can naturally adjust their mix and hit their harmonies because they have a real time perfect monitor; the mix is the same for every performer! There is no place to hide, you hear every note (and every clunker!).

 

But even in a solo situation, KB + you thru a single Center Point Stereo speaker, you hear a perfect 3D stereo deep image mix every time, and you know that is EXACTLY what the audience is hearing.

 

Believe me, for a solo gig or a full band with 3-4 vocalists...that makes for a real comfortable performance experience! And because our system is fairly "flat", you can get amazingly loud before you hit that dreaded feedback threshold.

 

[Aspen]

Hey Aspen, here's a thought --How about designing your own compact sub. Call it a Substation! Just a thought -- I'd be curious to hear what others think of the idea.

...there are a ton of mono LF options from uber cheap to mid to uber expensive, the market is flooded with these options. Could he compete in that flooded market of low margin LF options? be tough imo.

 

Good idea Bear, I thought about that for a second, then sat down until the thought went away. As Dave said, too many much bigger companies in that market and it would take my focus off the SS3, and any future plans for developing a "SS-XL" as some have requested (yes, I hear you Bear).

 

There's a great movie line in City Slickers where the old cowboy Curly (Jack Palance's last roll) enlightens the City Slicker Billy Crystal who asks "what is secret of life"? Curly says "It's just 'One Thing' " (and THAT'S what you must find out...for yourself).

 

Well, at this point in my life, Center Point Stereo is my One Thing. And, I am focused on that!

[Danny Linguini]

Good idea Bear, I thought about that for a second, then sat down until the thought went away. As Dave said, too many much bigger companies in that market and it would take my focus off the SS3, and any future plans for developing a "SS-XL" as some have requested (yes, I hear you Bear).

 

There's a great movie line in City Slickers where the old cowboy Curly (Jack Palance's last roll) enlightens the City Slicker Billy Crystal who asks "what is secret of life"? Curly says "It's just 'One Thing' " (and THAT'S what you must find out...for yourself).

 

Well, at this point in my life, Center Point Stereo is my One Thing. And, I am focused on that!

Hey, I hear ya. And you're doing a damn fine job with your One Thing. I was thinking it would be very cool to have a sub that is specifically 'tuned' to work with the SS, but I do understand that that's already a pretty crowded market. And with all the choices out there, anybody should be able to find one that works well for them.

 

All that being said, I would just love to hear what you could come up with for a SS-XL.

 

I do want to reiterate, though, that I am thoroughly impressed with the SS3 as it is and the sound it puts out just in the confines of my home (mostly in my music room, but once in the bigger dining room). I can't wait to get it out into a more open area to hear it really blossom.

[cphollis]

Sorry, I'm with Aspen on this. His "one thing" hit the market quite well, and provided us all with a nice alternative we didn't have before.

 

I'm very glad that he's satisfied one of my needs; I don't expect him to solve *all* of my needs. I also appreciate how he built his business -- word of mouth, hand-selected parts, etc. Something to truly emulate in the musical equipment business.

 

The SSv3 does a lot on its own. If I need more, I get different toys.

[hardware]

2 different schools of thought.

 

With a Sub SSv3 no longer is really a stage monitor, but a small PA, which is nice if you MUST have really low end.

 

I'm just one of those guys that sees the SSv3 as perfect.

 

Everything run at Noon, no low frequencies mushing up the kick or the SVT/PBass rig. Just a punchy well focused low end that sounds kick ass when a low Piano note is played, or a synth drone swept by an LFO across the full range.

 

Every 10 pages or so I must show respect and appreciation for a developer with enough foresight and ears to listen to gigging musicians.

[zaphod betamax]

ASPEN: Recording the CPS for Youtube.

I know you use MS recording to create your Youtube videos.

Do you invert the phase on the side signal after the fact, or do you use some sort of live phase inversion when you record to mp4 on the camera.

 

I'd like to try my hand at MS recording my CPS and wonder if you have some tricks or hints.

 

Thanks

 

Mark Pigott

Sarnia Ontario

(Sarnia provides 1/2 of Canada's petrochemicals in

a city of 77,000 - useless fact; lol)

 

[Danny Linguini]

Sorry, I'm with Aspen on this. His "one thing" hit the market quite well, and provided us all with a nice alternative we didn't have before.

 

I'm very glad that he's satisfied one of my needs; I don't expect him to solve *all* of my needs. I also appreciate how he built his business -- word of mouth, hand-selected parts, etc. Something to truly emulate in the musical equipment business.

 

The SSv3 does a lot on its own. If I need more, I get different toys.

Can't disagree at all.

 

Sometimes I think out loud. And when I can't think out loud, some lucky forum population becomes the lucky recipient of a brain dump.

[16251]

Sorry, I'm with Aspen on this. His "one thing" hit the market quite well, and provided us all with a nice alternative we didn't have before.

 

I'm very glad that he's satisfied one of my needs; I don't expect him to solve *all* of my needs. I also appreciate how he built his business -- word of mouth, hand-selected parts, etc. Something to truly emulate in the musical equipment business.

 

The SSv3 does a lot on its own. If I need more, I get different toys.

Can't disagree at all.

 

Sometimes I think out loud. And when I can't think out loud, some lucky forum population becomes the lucky recipient of a brain dump.

Although it's not on Aspen's plate. I bet another co might decide to build a sub with same look and measurements if they think enough SS's are owned and a need/want is there.

[ChiefDanG]

Sorry if this has been covered already, or if it's just a dumb question. But-

I have a Samson SM10 mixer. It has has two sets L/R main outs - XLR and 1/4 inch TRS - both sending a balanced signal. Best way to get into the SpaceStation? Just use regular 1/4 inch TS cables? Would TRS to TS allow long cables without ground/signal problems? Will these balanced outs send a hot enough signal to the SS3, as opposed to unbalanced/high impedance outs?

(OK, maybe 4 dumb questions)

Tanks

Dan

[cphollis]

I routinely use long (20') 1/4" TR unbalanced cables from Yamaha MG06 mixer to SSv3. Not cheapo cables, but not balanced either.

 

No problemo to date.

[Don Headley]

Just got my SS3 today. And its going back tomorrow. This thing really sounds like crap. Very poor quality sound.

Don't know if I'm doing something wrong or if everyone on this forum likes to sound like an AM radio?

I normally use powered PA speakers. Very clear clean sound.

My boards: Fantom x with ultimate keys SRX

Kronos2

Triton extreme 73

I play quality boards and I expect quality sound but the SS3 gets a FAIL from me.

[cphollis]

Just got my SS3 today. And its going back tomorrow. This thing really sounds like crap. Very poor quality sound.

Don't know if I'm doing something wrong or if everyone on this forum likes to sound like an AM radio?

I normally use powered PA speakers. Very clear clean sound.

My boards: Fantom x with ultimate keys SRX

Kronos2

Triton extreme 73

I play quality boards and I expect quality sound but the SS3 gets a FAIL from me.

 

Hey, the SSv3 is not everyone's cup of tea, but it sounds to me like something might not be quite right.

 

Questions I would have, if you're willing:

 

- what are you using for self-powered PA speakers?

- have you adjusted your voices to have decent stereo content?

- how did you audition it, e.g. placement, etc.?

 

A lot of us are big fans of the SSv3, not so much AM radio

[Doug Robinson]

Don, either there is a problem with your unit or you're doing something wrong. The amp doesn't sound like crap. Don't waste any time thinking like that--lots of us (with good keyboards and good ears) are getting excellent sound from it. If you can't wait a day or two to troubleshoot, send it back but if you get to the bottom of what's wrong, you'll probably be glad you did.

[elif]

Don, either there is a problem with your unit or you're doing something wrong.

Or Don has other expectations of the gear he uses.

[Doug Robinson]

I get that expectations can lead to disappointment, but the sound simply isn't bad. I doubt if that is it.