Heads-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back

[drawback]

Hey rockinredeye, thanks for confirmation on that. I thought I'd read it before, but 50... count 'em: 51 pages of posts are a little daunting (try searching for "crossover" or "sub" and it gets worse :wink:. Guess I could've gone to the source document

 

Anyway... that little tidbit just saved me ± $400 CDN!

 

and, CONGRATULATIONS, Aspen!

 

 

[ChrisDespo]

The SS MarkII must be different than the new versions, because the SSV3 sends full frequency out through the "sub out" of the SSV3 and does nothing internally to the frequencies that the onboard amps put out ... they continue to put out the same frequency as their specs state including the lows (I think down to maybe 120hz or so?) ... this is per Aspen (probably many pages back) ...

 

That being said, what many of us are doing is feeding a full frequency through a sub and using the built in crossover of the sub to filter the lows and send that out to the SSV3 thus eliminating the extra job of recreating those lows in the SSV3 ....

[Doug Robinson]

I need to ask a potentially embarrassing question--if I take the sub out from the SSV3 and plug it into my small but fairly deep-sounding bass amp and roll off the highs...wouldn't that help fill out the lows in a situation where it would be nice to use a sub? I have one already, and don't really want to buy another piece of gear after my SS right now.

 

Thanks.

[Danny Linguini]

I need to ask a potentially embarrassing question--if I take the sub out from the SSV3 and plug it into my small but fairly deep-sounding bass amp and roll off the highs...wouldn't that help fill out the lows in a situation where it would be nice to use a sub? I have one already, and don't really want to buy another piece of gear after my SS right now.

 

Thanks.

Not embarrassing at all!

Yes, this would work as far as adding bottom that the 8" woofer of the SS can't provide. What would work better, though, is sticking a crossover in the middle (before either amp), sending everything 100 hz and below into your bass amp and everything above 100hz into the SS (because the SS sub out doesn't do any low-pass filtering on its own). This avoids sending highs to the bass amp that it can't handle very well and muddying up the SS with the lows that it can't handle as well. Yes, it's another piece of gear, but I can pretty much guarantee you'll be happier with the results.

[Doug Robinson]

Thanks, I appreciate that. Truthfully, I don't anticipate needing a sub at all as the venues where I play seem to be right in line, size-size, with the ones others here are playing in sub-less. But your advice might come in handy one day.

[hardware]

Excellent news indeed. I can't wait to get it, ordering the Behringer Sub so I will have both in time for March.....!!!

[HammondDave]

To be fair, that is one of the most acoustically favorable rooms in the world, SS or otherwise.

 

True... I once heard the second violinist fart from the back row of the Disney Hall!

[theGman]

^^^ I remember that fart; I smelled it. I was in the 10th row.

 

[MathOfInsects]

They're going to have to start calling that section the winds.

[Aspen]

So to the sk users who have the SS, what are your settings to get the most out of the SS ? Are the sk outputs "hotter" than other boards ? Im still having problems with getting a reasonable sound level without the SS breaking up. With the SS gain at no more than 11 o'clock, I cant get the volume level on the sk above 10 o'clock on the main volume control without distortion. ( obviously ALL O/D effects are off ) - side note, I use a mk1 vent, and find it starts clipping ( red light on ) at about the same level ( 10 o'clock ) but even without the vent, its still the same problem. I have my expression pedal settings at curve 1 , gain to 110% on full volume ( 127 )-it can go to 130% so not maxed out there. Ive tried every combination of high volume on sk, low volume on SS, higher volume on SS and less on the sk, through mixers, tried going into a radial DI, worked great but the volume level was way too low to play live. Ive spent 2 days trying every combination I can think of.

.... at a loss as to what the problem is ???

Seems like a lot of players love the sk / SS combination , settings ?

 

You know, I've been working on this nose and distortion issue with a few early adopters off line. Believe it or not, in every case so far, the problem was traced to some older (weaker) cables.

I know it sounds over simplistic, but since the Sum & Difference matrix that is key to the CPS effect requires BOTH Signal to be VERY equal when we "flip the phase" on them, it makes sense that if the Left or Right signal path is compromised (or just not equal) in anyway with a bad or loose connection it REALLY affects the circuitry in a bad way; and that definately WILL create distortion and noise! And, that condition would not be NEARLY as problematic if the same cables were used for a typical L/R stereo system.

You know, at my APR studios we do ALOT of MS stereo recording (which is the exact reverse of the PS matrix) and the few times it stared sounding weird were ALWAYS traced to "bad connections" or cables.

So if you do hear weirdness, noise or distortion, be sure to substitute some good new cables FIRST, before you panic!

After 50+ of tracing troubling audio Gremlins, it still amazes me how often the problem has turned out to be a bad cable or connection!

[Aspen]

Hey, drawback!

I have had a SS MarkII for a few years and when the sub out has a plug in it, frequencies below 100Hz definitely are removed from the internal amps for you; external crossover is not necessary. On the CPS website:

 

http://www.centerpointstereo.com/documents/gt_sfx_mk2_package.pdf

 

OK guys, time for me to chime in with a "full disclosure statement and set the record straight.

 

Yes, the very 1st version Spacestation (and SFX 100) had a high pass filter that was activated when plugging in a sub, AND a low pass filter built into the sub jack that sent a conditioned LF signal out to the sub.

 

Then years later when we changed production partners for the new MK2, this feature was omitted...without my asking for that.

When I was writing the new spec sheet prior to it's re-release as the new MK2 (which had MANY new improvements), I just assumed the sub design had not changed and still had BOTH the LF roll of when the sub was in play AND sent a LF (only) signal to the sub.

 

So, when I was writing the new owners manual for the new MK2 I just picked up the earlier text from the 1st version spec sheet and continued to list this as a "feature".

 

Then, I found out many months later from my engineer that the sub out had been "simplified" to omit the jack switch and BOTH filters...oooops!

 

Actually, I discovered all this when a user told me how he was using the sub for a FOH mono send and how happy he was about how that well that was working for him. So, that was about the time I was selling my company to Fender (for health reasons, so I was also a bit distracted at that time), and the MK2 went in that sale....so I never revisted the on line manual, and ender decide not to continue with the MK2 (to my dismay).

 

7 years later when I decide to "resurrect" the 3rd version of the Spacestation (prompted by a insightful MK2 user who had modified his MK2 which blew mine away) I purposely left the sub out full range...knowing most subs HAD an input filter and/or a bass amp had tone controls that could alos be rooled off and it would work fine! And, that meant a user could still use it for a full range "mono" FOH send.

 

Sometimes "stuff happens", and you just roll with it...as in this case when the accident served a good purpose!.

 

Of course in practice, just adding a sub to the MK2 changes your total mix and the way you hear things; you will hear better low mids from the SS because you no longer turn it up as loud and/or change your EQ because you have more energy in the LF just by adding a powered sub.

[Aussie_Chicago]

So to the sk users who have the SS, what are your settings to get the most out of the SS ? Are the sk outputs "hotter" than other boards ? Im still having problems with getting a reasonable sound level without the SS breaking up. With the SS gain at no more than 11 o'clock, I cant get the volume level on the sk above 10 o'clock on the main volume control without distortion. ( obviously ALL O/D effects are off ) - side note, I use a mk1 vent, and find it starts clipping ( red light on ) at about the same level ( 10 o'clock ) but even without the vent, its still the same problem. I have my expression pedal settings at curve 1 , gain to 110% on full volume ( 127 )-it can go to 130% so not maxed out there. Ive tried every combination of high volume on sk, low volume on SS, higher volume on SS and less on the sk, through mixers, tried going into a radial DI, worked great but the volume level was way too low to play live. Ive spent 2 days trying every combination I can think of.

.... at a loss as to what the problem is ???

Seems like a lot of players love the sk / SS combination , settings ?

 

You know, I've been working on this nose and distortion issue with a few early adopters off line. Believe it or not, in every case so far, the problem was traced to some older (weaker) cables.

I know it sounds over simplistic, but since the Sum & Difference matrix that is key to the CPS effect requires BOTH Signal to be VERY equal when we "flip the phase" on them, it makes sense that if the Left or Right signal path is compromised (or just not equal) in anyway with a bad or loose connection it REALLY affects the circuitry in a bad way; and that definately WILL create distortion and noise! And, that condition would not be NEARLY as problematic if the same cables were used for a typical L/R stereo system.

You know, at my APR studios we do ALOT of MS stereo recording (which is the exact reverse of the PS matrix) and the few times it stared sounding weird were ALWAYS traced to "bad connections" or cables.

So if you do hear weirdness, noise or distortion, be sure to substitute some good new cables FIRST, before you panic!

After 50+ of tracing troubling audio Gremlins, it still amazes me how often the problem has turned out to be a bad cable or connection!

 

Ive tried multiple cables, some are brand new, but Ill re visit this , actually it was one of my first thoughts.

[rockinredeye]

Well, I guess when I read the old Mk1 sub-out description, it caused me to "believe" that my Mk2 was not receiving the LFs to its woofers, causing it to sound cleaner. Anyway, mine sounds better when using a sub, but for the reasons Aspen says, not for the reasons in my earlier post. I still love it.

[hardware]

The MKIIS do sound nice. I bought one last Fall thinking it was the newer III and didn't know until I read this thread, then looked at SW to find out they just updated their page.

It will be my spare now as it is plenty loud for a stage monitor, and I do work with Marshall/Twin stacks and an ancient beat up SV4 that sounds 10 times better than the ones made in the last 20 years.

MKIIs pop up every couple of months in Nashville, they don't last long either.

[bjosko]

Got my SS3 this Monday, and connected it straight away to my Kronos here at home.

Dialling in all controls after recommendations given in this thread, and it sound really great.

Had to lower the Widht a little bit, as the pianos sound a little boxy, but after that, it sound fantastic. Tried the level shortly at 1o clock, way to loud for the small room, but clean sound, and no noise from the unit when idle. I ended up with the level about 9 oclock.

Only a weak humming from the transformer, that was not audible through the speakers.

 

Thursday I was practice with my band.

We are 5 guys playing rock and blues, way to loud. 2 guitars, vocals, drums, bass and me on keys.

All over 2 guitar amps, bas amp and into a large PA, it is a active HK Audio that consist of two subs and two fullrange speakers, 600 watt on each unit.

 

I use a Hammond A100, going both into my Leslie 147 and over a Ventilator into the PA, and I have made up a halfmoon switch with dual function for Vent and Leslie.

This evening, I had disconnected the Leslie, and also the PA.

I also use a Nord Stage 88 Classic for piano and a few synth patches, but the Hammond cover 90 % of our stuff.

I grabbed 2 aux busses on our mixer, and routed all mine signals into the SS3, and nothing up in FOH.

All EQ at the mixer was sat flat.

 

No one at the band know that I had bought the SS, so I met up half an hour before the rest of the band and sat my SS up in a corner about 5 meter in front of us, and cover it up with a piece of black tablecloth.

We started playing, I had to feed the SS with some more level from the Aux faders, but it sound real great, and filled the room with great Hammond.

 

After 3 numbers, the lead guitar player finally found the SS, he had been walking around in the room, trying to find out where my sound came from, as he could not hear me through the PA

 

Then I shortly routed the rest of the band over to that little SS. Even bass and kick drum. I think with some EQ and a sub under, it could have worked OK, might come in handy on some small stages. The lead guitar sound a bit to sharp, the kick drum missed the bottom, but vocals and acoustic guitar sound great, and also the bass guitar was great, even it also could have used some more bottom from a sub. But then again, that was not the purpose of the SS, and I also think it could have done it much better with some tweaking on the SS and EQ on mixer.

But all in all nice clean sound, no distortion.

 

Since I like a dash of reverb in my Hammond, I used the on-board effect in the mixer (Presonus StudioLive), but then I also got the reverb effect from our vocals, but that was no problem, small adjustment of the amount on the effect did the trick.

 

My Nord was not that happy. Here the Grand piano sound to boxy, the Upright piano somewhat OK (think I use the Petrof sample), and I could not solve it with the onboard EQ on the piano itself, but then again, it was a fast setup on the SS, and no tweaking, I think some fine adjustment on the SS for the room, and perhaps some more fine tuning on the EQ at the mixer board could have solved this. The Nord are also out-dated on the Piano samples, but it have to work until they show up with a NS3.

For comparison, the Kronos sound great at home on the SS, but I have never been a fan of the piano on it before, and it are a 61, I need weighted keys for piano, but after have heard it through the SS, I might give it a new chance. Im just not a big fan of the interface on it, but that belong to another thread.

 

So a conclusion after all this rambling:

The SS3 are well worth my money. It filled the room on a way I have never heard before. There were Hammond solos where I wanted to blow the guitar player up on the wall with sound pressure , but then again, it is not always about volume, but if you could be heard. And I got heard the whole evening, even if the guitar player was playing louder and louder. I kept the same volume. I think a sub will put the icing of the cake.

I could also have turned up the volume more at the SS (sat at 1 oclock, but not at full power from the faders on the AUX channels), but I enjoyed to keep it at a human level and still be heard.

 

I missed some treble of the higher drawbars and percussion, and was not totally happy with my Nord, but that are small things that can be fine-tuned with positions of the SS and its controls, eventually also a little bit EQ on the mixer.

 

I really enjoyed playing Hammond on it, the Vent give some benefits I cant get from my 147.

 

SS3 Mark II will have protected corners and smaller controllers at back, flushed with the backplate

 

[Danny Linguini]

@bjosko, very nice review.

[TomKittel]

Got my Spacestation this Monday...

Congratulations, one more Spacestation in Europe!

 

My Nord was not that happy. Here the Grand piano sound to boxy, the Upright piano somewhat OK (think I use the Petrof sample), and I could not solve it with the onboard EQ on the piano itself, but then again, it was a fast setup on the SS, and no tweaking, I think some fine adjustment on the SS for the room, and perhaps some more fine tuning on the EQ at the mixer board could have solved this. The Nord are also out-dated on the Piano samples, but it have to work until they show up with a NS3.

Nord piano samples are difficult to reproduce with any live equipment. They only sound good with studio monitors.

 

SS3 Mark II will have protected corners and smaller controllers at back, flushed with the backplate

Good point. It's kind of a design flaw that the control knobs stand out. Easy to fix but the Spacestation should have shorter knobs from factory.

 

Very nice review, bjosko!

[HammondDave]

Apparently you are not playing with this guy...

 

[video:youtube]

 

[Aspen]

Got my SS3 this Monday...I really enjoyed playing Hammond on it, the Vent give some benefits I cant get from my 147.

 

SS3 Mark II will have protected corners and smaller controllers at back, flushed with the backplate.

 

THEN: Good point. It's kind of a design flaw that the control knobs stand out. Easy to fix but the Spacestation should have shorter knobs from factory.

It's not the knobs guys, it is the pot shaft that is to long and we have not been able to source these ones we have in the MK2, sorry. Still trying.

Only good news we have yet to damage a pot by a "trip and fall"...guess the longer rubber knob protects the pot shaft.

But if our only complaint is this, then we are way ahead of the game!

[16251]

Has anyone given thought to covers for the open bottom speaker when transporting?

[endlessummerkeys]

http://www.amazon.com/SKB-Rolling-Powered-wheels-Handle/dp/B000Z2OC2U

heres the case that works well

[TomKittel]

Got my SS3 this Monday...I really enjoyed playing Hammond on it, the Vent give some benefits I cant get from my 147.

 

SS3 Mark II will have protected corners and smaller controllers at back, flushed with the backplate.

 

THEN: Good point. It's kind of a design flaw that the control knobs stand out. Easy to fix but the Spacestation should have shorter knobs from factory.

It's not the knobs guys, it is the pot shaft that is to long and we have not been able to source these ones we have in the MK2, sorry. Still trying.

Only good news we have yet to damage a pot by a "trip and fall"...guess the longer rubber knob protects the pot shaft.

But if our only complaint is this, then we are way ahead of the game!

 

Better do not put it on it's back in your trunk (and don't let a friend stow it for you!). I am thinking about cutting off the pot shafts and get shorter knobs.

[16251]

http://www.amazon.com/SKB-Rolling-Powered-wheels-Handle/dp/B000Z2OC2U

heres the case that works well

you'd have to be a little person to utilize those wheels.

[bjosko]

l

you'd have to be a little person to utilize those wheels.

 

Free bar to the piano player ?

 

Nah.

From Sweetwater description:

"An indestructible injection molded pull out handle and dual wheels for easy transport."

[MathOfInsects]

I use the case. It's fine. The retractable handle is handy but also flimsy seeming. It will surely snap one day. The fit is snug, though perhaps overly so--meaning it's tough to get the thing in and out. I leave the cloth cover on now to give me some leverage on the way out.

 

Tuesday will be my first job where the SS3 and a sub are also at least part of my FOH sound--a bar/restaurant rather than a stage/venue. Curious to see how it goes/how much support I'll need from PA, if any.

[David Loving]

I am going to buy this amp or a K10. Without regard to stereo effects, how does quality of sound and volume compare to a K10? Why should I buy this amp instead of a K10?

 

[TomKittel]

I am going to buy this amp or a K10. Without regard to stereo effects, how does quality of sound and volume compare to a K10? Why should I buy this amp instead of a K10?

 

This answer is simple: it's STEREO and it sounds better. The latter is just my opinion of course. And it's half the price of two K10 if you want stereo.

[DanL]

I own both the K10 and the SS3. They are completely different speakers for different applications. The main thing is do you want to run stereo or is mono ok? If mono, get the K10. If you want to run stereo, get the SS3. The K10 has more low end. The SS3 is more mid range sounding but cuts thru the mix well. You don't need (or want) to have it in your face like you can do with the K10. It fills a room much better.

 

I use one or the other depending on the need. Saturday I used the SS3 at a gig, running a stereo signal from my mixer. I used the K10 as a vocal monitor only. Sunday I took the K10 to a rehearsal and plugged my SK1 and Ultranova direct into the 2 inputs, running mono. Thursday I'll go to a blues jam and run my SK1 in stereo direct to the SS3.

[Jazzmammal]

I am going to buy this amp or a K10. Without regard to stereo effects, how does quality of sound and volume compare to a K10? Why should I buy this amp instead of a K10?

 

I have three EV's, one ELX12P and two SXa100's. The 12P is probably comparable to the K10. I really like EV's. Until I got the SS some combination of these three was my stage setup for years. For sound quality the SS is slightly better but the EV's are still very good. Max volume the 12P is louder and cleaner at that max volume. Obviously that's because of a bigger box, more power and a 12" woofer.

 

My whole gigging life sound dispersion has been an issue with a single stage speaker. If the stage is big enough that I can sit at least 5 feet in front of it fine but if I'm forced to sit either right on top of it or to the side or the worst just a couple feet directly in front of it then I'm either getting blasted or I can't hear myself and/or my sound is muffled. The SS solves all that.

 

If you're not concerned about stereo or those placement issues then I would check out the new version of the 12P, I'll bet it's killer.

 

Bob

[mate stubb]

I got rid of my K10s. Bandmates complained that they were brittle sounding and beamy. I did find them highly directional, and harsh when cranked.