Heads-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back

[Markay]

Great information on the mono v stereo FOH options. Invaluable contribution Aspen to this never ending debate on KC. If it the SSv3 ever makes it out here I would buy one unheard solely based on the information you have shared here. Unfortunately shipping costs on heavier items like speakers and amps make private import unrealistic.

 

I know some of the KB orientated retailers and techs who do contract warranty support for some of the major brands here. PM if you would like some contact details.

[DanL]

so does this mean that the sub output could be used as a viable send to foh, with summed L/R in one mono output?

[HAMEGZ]

so does this mean that the sub output could be used as a viable send to foh, with summed L/R in one mono output?

 

The sub out is unbalanced full range mono output, but controlled by the master gain of the SS.So a DI to convert to balanced would be needed.

[AnotherScott]

As it turns out, the L+R (or Front) signals which are derive from our reverse MS matrix ARE mono compatible and sound pretty good (the matrix filters out any "different signals, and so leaves only those that are the "same"). This matrix is often called "sum & difference", so the "sum" is a great send for the FOH.

...

Is this better than a simple passive summing of L+R for FOH? Usually I'd say "yes", just because in our encoding circuit these are actively "buffered". But this would depend on how you are currently summing now, it may be "better", but it could be no worse.

Great discussion! This part above leads me to two questions, though:

 

1. If I'm understanding correctly, the fact that you derive your "sub out" from the L+R sum means that it will not contain anything from the source that is panned hard left or hard right, and very little of source material that is panned close to the extremes. Is this correct? If so, I can see this as a potential issue to be aware of. Examples: You have a synth sound that is ping-ponging between the sides, or a Rhodes sound with autopan... wouldn't these sounds essentially "disappear" from FOH when they are at one extreme or the other of the stereo soundfield? Or say you have a sound where the "original" is panned hard to one side and an echo/delay of that sound is panned hard to the other... if I understand correctly, it seems like you'd hear neither. Because in these cases, there are instances of sounds which are barely or not at all common to both the L and R. Am I misunderstanding? If this is the case, I don't see it as an insurmountable problem, as few sounds are like this... but it seems like something you'd want to be aware of, if there are certain kinds of stereo effects that won't work well if the signal is taken out of the Spacestation to FOH. (I suppose in this situation, you also wouldn't want to play one of the old Beatles stereo recordings with the instruments on one side and the vocals on the other side, either!)

 

2. OTOH, one of the things that people often complain about here is that many stereo piano sounds don't work well if reduced to mono for the FOH because of phase cancellation issues. If I understand what you're saying, the Spacestation might fix that because, while you would be able to hear your stereo piano out of the Spacestation, the "sub" out to the FOH does not fully combine L and R so maybe that "mono" signal does not have the phase issues that can occur with a simple combining of L and R. The piano might sound a little "different" in that the portions of the piano sound that are at the left and right extremes of the soundfield would be diminished (perhaps leading to a de-emphasis of the lowest and highest notes), but the phase problem becomes a non-issue, is this correct?

 

Unrelated question: Had you considered using lighter Class D amps? If so, was the decision not to go that way one of cost, or one of performance in your design?

 

BTW, I sent you a private message a while back, which is still showing as "Unread." I know you're new to the forum and looked for guidance in the Quote function, maybe you didn't see that you can get private messages here too?

[MalH]

However if the PA is run in mono, then each speaker contains EXACTLY the same signals, So then when they mix, no harm done...you get uniformity, and clarity and no adverse frequency cancellations. But it is also still, just mono :> (so it never "sounds as good as the CD)

This is simple audio physics folks,

 

My knowledge of "simple audio physics" tells me that two identical sources will leave a pattern of constructive and destructive interference depending on the different distances to the two sources. I don't think it's quite as simple as Aspen states.

[HAMEGZ]

 

1. If I'm understanding correctly, the fact that you derive your "sub out" from the L+R sum means that it will not contain anything from the source that is panned hard left or hard right, and very little of source material that is panned close to the extremes.

 

Scott I just ran a quick and dirty test of that.

I hooked up a Traynor K2 into the sub out and ran a wurli patch with tremolo into the system.

 

I didnt notice any exaggerated or missing information coming from the Traynor.

 

Rotary fx sounded as usual in mono, and AC piano didnt seem thin or out of phase.

 

I tried to isolate the two speakers as much as possible, but next gig Ill play a midi file into the boards and walk out front to the PA which is mono.

[Al Coda]

So do I prefer the sound of my former Groove Tubes SFX K5 speaker w/ a 15" McCauley coax Front speaker plus it's 2x12 Celestion G85K side speakers powered by the top of the line US made QSC 1200watt stereo PA amp like we made for Ray Manzerak for his last DOORS tour, over my compact 280 watt Spacestation V.3. Well, sure.

 

Hi Aspen !

First, thank you for all your replies which are a very interesting and informative read !

The above is the answer I expected.

 

I truly understand the marketing/calculation thing, but sometimes, like you had it w/ Ray Manzarek, something bigger is the better solution even it´s rarely necessary.

 

But it weights 3x more, costs 4x more, and is 6x larger. BTW, we still make some custom systems on special order...but frankly spoken every one I know is "downsizing".

 

I think it´s a brilliant idea doing the custom design in addition to the more "mass market" oriented solution.

In fact I´m downsizing too and don´t need as much gear as I used in the past anymore, even I still own it.

I appreciate your explanation of the "sub out" of you SSV3 in your former post and what´s left now is checking it out w/ my keys and make a decision.

 

I hope I find a way to do so near future.

 

So to "sum" up the "differences"; size matters!

 

That´s what she said, man !

 

 

A.C.

[Aspen]

However if the PA is run in mono, then each speaker contains EXACTLY the same signals, So then when they mix, no harm done...you get uniformity, and clarity and no adverse frequency cancellations. But it is also still, just mono :> (so it never "sounds as good as the CD)

This is simple audio physics folks,

 

My knowledge of "simple audio physics" tells me that two identical sources will leave a pattern of constructive and destructive interference depending on the different distances to the two sources. I don't think it's quite as simple as Aspen states.

Well, of course there are the time alignment issues with spaced speakers, even with the same content, and don't forget wall reflections and such...all of which creates cancellations and generally degrades audio.

But my point, albeit over simplified (always a danger in these group discussions with so many professors), was that this is "less so" in mono, as compared to stereo.

So, if there is just one pebble in the pond making ripples.....(see the 1st CPS video, if you want it really oversimplified!)

 

[Aspen]

so does this mean that the sub output could be used as a viable send to foh, with summed L/R in one mono output?

Yes.

[AnotherScott]

Scott I just ran a quick and dirty test of that.

I hooked up a Traynor K2 into the sub out and ran a wurli patch with tremolo into the system.

 

I didnt notice any exaggerated or missing information coming from the Traynor.

 

Rotary fx sounded as usual in mono

Thanks for the followup, but those sounds don't really test for the scenario I described. Tremolo varies amplitude (volume) but not stereo positioning. Leslie speakers never have a null position, there is always plenty of sound coming from both sides, even if the amount from each side varies. (Which is also why it was perfectly reasonable to mic up a Leslie with only one mic on the horn.) The test would have to be on a sound that is, at least sometimes, only at one extreme of the stereo soundfield and not at all at the other.

 

AC piano didnt seem thin or out of phase.

I don't know what your source was, but as has been discussed here before, some stereo pianos sound okay collapsed to mono and others don't. I guess my question is, if you have a stereo piano that sounds bad collapsed to mono using traditional methods (i.e. panning both channels to center), would that same piano sound fine if the mono version is created via the L+R summed output that the Sub Out of the Spacestation creates which (as I understand it) tosses out sonic information that appears in one channel but not the other, as opposed to folding it all in.

[Aspen]

Unrelated question: Had you considered using lighter Class D amps? If so, was the decision not to go that way one of cost, or one of performance in your design?

 

 

BTW, I sent you a private message a while back, which is still showing as "Unread." I know you're new to the forum and looked for guidance in the Quote function, maybe you didn't see that you can get private messages here too?

 

1) We use 4 Class D amps now...and you are right they seem to be the best solution for smaller compact amps. However, the design has pitfalls, one of which I stumbled on int his first production; FCC bans emissions in the mega cycle range and our first Class D design (and remember, with 4 amps) had a spike above the limit at 31.5 Mega cycles. We only discovered this problem when in final test and after we had produced 110 PCB Power boards. There was no way to "fix" this, so I tossed them all out and started over...it was a layout solution which we confirmed would pass and then made another 110 power PCBs. This delayed the introduction by almost 2 months! So I knew all about analog layout pitfalls, but this was a new one to me!

 

2) Ooops! you are right, I am a newbie here. So, I just checked "my stuff" (for the first time) and found the bouncing envelope (nice)...then I see there are 7 unread private messages...who knew?

My apologies to you all, no disrespect intended! I will get to these over the next few hours as I find the time. Thanks for the heads up.

[HAMEGZ]

[

Thanks for the followup, but those sounds don't really test for the scenario I described.

 

OK well perhaps there are users better equipped to test these hypothesis, or maybe Aspen can run some recordings of your scenario. .

 

I went back to a EP with a stereo autopan and then a L/R ping pong and tried combinations of manually panning hard L and R on the MOX , and then adjusting the width on the SS.

 

I am not in a controlled space, this is my living room and stock patches, and most probably I dont know what I am listening for :idk

[Jazzmammal]

I went to the Amp Show this afternoon, met Aspen and heard a couple hours worth of demo. For the first hour I didn't see anyone I knew but then sure enough out comes a guitarist buddy of mine from the main Guitar Center room and I no longer felt like the Lone Stranger. I've done too many gigs around here to go to a show like that and not know anybody there, I was starting to feel lonely . That put me in a good mood. And Howie had a buddy with him who's a B3 fanatic. He showed me pics in his phone with a bunch of Hammonds, Leslies and related stuff in a big workroom. He would fit right in here. Anyway, I think this little amp is really good and so did he.

 

The set up was a small meeting room in a hotel, maybe 20 by 50 feet or so. 40 seats in the front half and standing room in the back. There was a portable stage in the front that was about two feet from the back wall with about three feet of space on each side. He had a four piece band, two guitars, bass and keys with two vocals using a harmonizer. Everything went through the amp and to me it sounded really good. The volume was louder than I expected and it was crystal clear. Aspen said he was holding the max volume at 105db and the amp still had quite a bit of power left.

 

I can say this for sure, the overall volume was louder than quite a few lounge/supper club gigs I've done. I mentioned this to him at one point and he suddenly says "great point" and runs up to the stage, grabs the mic while the band is playing and says, "Have you ever been asked to turn down?" He tells them to keep playing and reaches for the mixer and turns down the master slider and then says "you can turn down the whole band with one knob yet the mix stays the same for both the band and the audience". It really sounded like someone simply turning down a commercial CD. Another thing, he has a big voice with real presence and several times he was talking over the band when they were already pretty loud and I heard him quite clearly with no interference from the instruments.

 

At one point they were doing a song where the keys guy Al, was doing a lot of organ so I walked to the left corner against the back wall right behind him and I could hear everything perfectly clear, including the leslie and the vocals. I then slowly walked along the wall to the back of the room and the mix was exactly the same, just the volume dropped a bit. I did the same thing on the right side of the stage and stood right behind the bass player in the corner and it still was the same overall mix including the organ. It was remarkable, I was actually behind the SS off center and the other side of the stage yet I still heard the entire band and especially the organ very clearly.

 

Now, here's a really funny thing. The amp was sitting on a small sub and Aspen was talking about how if you are using a bass player it's best with a sub and he said how he picked this one up at a thrift shop for $50. I thought the bass sounded pretty good, not too deep but it was definitely there. After the second demo someone asked how the amp sounded without the sub and he leans over behind it and discovered it wasn't plugged in! I was blown away, both hour long demos were nothing but the SS by itself. He plugged in the sub and now the bass really had some bottom to it but I'm telling you, the bass with just the amp alone was plenty for a small jazz gig in a restaurant or a bass and guitar duo for example.

 

They did a Steely Dan tune with lots of keys and vocals and the organ was cranked at one point to where my ears were really feeling it. Again this was still holding Aspens 105db limit. I don't think I would have any problem being heard at a medium loud bar gig. Especially when Al told me he will use his with a JBL eon when he needs more power and the overall stereo sound is still there. I believe him.

 

This thing is a winner. I would have been impressed if the Spacestation was only used for the instruments and the vocals had their own PA but to have everything going through this small innocuous little amp in full stereo? Impressive and I'm getting one.

 

Bob

 

 

[Al Coda]

I went to the Amp Show this afternoon, met Aspen and heard a couple hours worth of demo.

 

Bob

 

Thx for your detailed report. Sounds great.

 

A.C.

[DanL]

Alright, I'm convinced... calling Sweetwater tomorrow!

[DanL]

One additional question- are the knobs on the back totally recessed or do they extend past the edge of the cabinet?

[Mike Martin]

If I recall they're totally recessed.

[Jazzmammal]

Yes they are. I didn't look that closely but I think it's like my Barbetta's, it's recessed enough that the knobs won't stick out past the edge of the box but I can't swear to it.

 

Also, one thing I didn't hear was the AP sound. Aspen wanted Al to stick with organ using lots of leslie on and off to demo the stereo effect which sounded pretty good. He was doing a lot with the width knob showing how it sounds with the stereo going on and off. It was a big difference.

 

The keyboard was a Nord Stage and I did noodle around on it between the two demos but I had to keep it down and it was just me, not with the band. What I did hear of the AP at low volume was good but I would love to have cranked it with the rest of the guys.

 

Bob

[HAMEGZ]

If I recall they're totally recessed.

 

No, they extend by just a bit

 

http://i384.photobucket.com/albums/oo288/slutelservices/ss_zps46bb2058.jpg

[M_G]

 

Nice reports here, thanks to all !

 

Just got a tracking update that states that my parcel has passed Frankfurt Airport.

So I hope I will get it the next few days, can't wait to check it out.....

 

[miden]

I have to repeat the question to Aspen (asked MANY pages ago)...

Who is the Australian distributor please?

[Al Coda]

I have to repeat the question to Aspen (asked MANY pages ago)...

Who is the Australian distributor please?

 

I understood you can buy exclusively from Aspen and Sweetwater actually.

No distributors anywhere up to now,- but that might change in future.

 

A.C.

[HAMEGZ]

I have to repeat the question to Aspen (asked MANY pages ago)...

Who is the Australian distributor please?

 

I understood you can buy exclusively from Aspen and Sweetwater actually.

No distributors anywhere up to now,- but that might change in future.

 

A.C.

 

One thing to remember and consider, Aspen is literally a one man operation.

 

Right now he is trying to get the product out amongst juggling his personal life.

 

I was guilty of conversing with him about changes, new products and such, and I had to reflect on what he has done and is doing by himself, and have since tempered my opinions on those issues and am now concentrating on just enjoying what he has produced.

 

If there is a consensus that the SS is a competitor with keyboard reproduction and not a boutique item, I would love to see his sales expand to overseas distributors, much like some of the keyboards from "over there" have a US presence.

[Jazzmammal]

He mentioned yesterday that he didn't have any overseas distros but he is actively looking.

 

Bob

[TWB121234]

I've had my SS for nearly a month. I used it for the first time on a gig last night playing (subbing) with a high end 8-piece wedding reception band. I was primarily using True Keys Ravenscroft and Pianoteq for pianos, Velvet for Rhodes, LL4 for Wurlies (all in Main Stage), and a Hammond SK1 for organ, Clav, and strings. I ran the SK1 and Mac Air with Main Stage into a small Mackie mixer and the mixer main outs into the SS inputs. The sub out on the SS was connected to a direct box that fed the PA. With the level at about 12 o'clock on the SS and the mixer gains at about unity (give or take a little), I had no problem hearing myself and felt that I could have pushed it quite a bit harder without problems. The bass player (who I set up next to) commented on how well he could hear the keys (and how good they sounded). I thought they sounded good as well, particularly the organs, but pianos sounded good too. Also, I thought what I could hear of my keys coming back at me from the mains (especially the pianos) sounded better with the signal coming from the SS sub out than they have in previous turns with this group using the aux out of my Mackie mixer.

 

As a reference, I have been previously using a pair of Mackie DLM8s, QSC K10s, Yamaha Stagepass 500, and Yamaha Stagepass 300 (over the last several years).

 

I was very pleased with the way the SS performed in this setting. Though it doesn't seem like it should be that big of a deal, one box instead of two seemed to make my load in and setup easier, and my keyboard area footprint more compact.

 

I have also used the SS twice playing (in the basement) with an upright bass player playing jazz standards etc. (with Pianoteq for piano sounds). My bass playing friend's comment "Geez, it sounds like it's coming from everywhere." Indeed it does.

 

Having owned the original SS version 1 for about 4 hours - the pianos sounded awful (sorry Aspen) and I returned it the same day I bought it. I am very pleased so far with SS version 3. I'm actually considering buying another one to leave at my bass playing friends house and keep one at home for gigs. And as stated earlier, it does fit great in a QSC K10 bag.

 

 

 

 

[cphollis]

Great feedback, thanks. Mine is on order. I think Aspen has a winner here

[miden]

Thanks Bob, H&E and AC. Pity.Shipping would cost the same as the purchase price.

 

CMI (Korg Mackie Arturia Dean Markley et al) out here is always looking for new gear to import. Maybe he could try them?

[HAMEGZ]

. And as stated earlier, it does fit great in a QSC K10 bag.

 

A little birdy told me there may be a matching bag coming down the pike in the near future...

 

 

[HAMEGZ]

Thanks Bob, H&E and AC. Pity.Shipping would cost the same as the purchase price.

 

CMI (Korg Mackie Arturia Dean Markley et al) out here is always looking for new gear to import. Maybe he could try them?

 

Right now it seems to be costly to be an early adopter outside the US.

 

But maybe IF said distributors heard from their respective countrymen/and women who would translate into sales, they may reach out to Aspen.

[Markay]

Given the market size in Australia we probably rank about 20th on the list of global market opportunities. Going through a distributor like CMI for a boutique item would most likely end up with a product with a retail price 200 to 300 per cent higher than the US. Compare the cost of Mesa Boogie amps here with the retail in the US for an example.

 

Boutique products today would be better served by shipping direct and appointing local service agents for repairs. We make our buying decisions based on user reports on forums like this. If once we get it we don't like it, we sell it and suck up the loss, no returns. But with a local service agent at least we have warranty.

 

Almost all big brands operate the same way here for warranty repairs, including Mesa Boogie who have an exclusive distributor here, avoiding the cost of maintaining their own inhouse service network.