VR-09 Hints and Tips

[brenner13]

I've always lugged at least two boards where ever I play, but due to heavy rain and 50 yard walk to the practice shed, I chose to only use the VR09. I am quite pleased how good it sounded, and how fast and easy it is to switch sounds mid song. I've poo-poo'd the AC piano excessively before, but was shocked to get compliments from the bass player how well it cut through the mix without being harsh.

I wanted to have hands available for other things, so tried using the expression pedal again for expression. I seem to remember having some small range of swell with my M-Audio EXP before the update...now it is strictly on/off and won't adjust all the way off. It's been discussed before, but does anyone have success with expression swells? What brand/model pedal do you use?

 

Oh, the VR is usually on top, slightly angled down and never had problems with it sliding around...on the bottom flat tier, the thing is rather squirrelly.

[agitato]

Does the vr09 have the exact same virtual tone wheel engine as bk9,vk8m, and vr700?

[raffkey]

Hey agitato,

 

I own both the VR700 and the VR09..to answer you question: to my ears-no. I may be wrong, but the VR700 seems to be a bit more full without being as harsh in the high registers as the VR09. Probably not noticable to 99% of any audience, but to me I hear a difference.

 

Question for Craig or others:

 

I use a Vent with my 09 and when I hit fast speed, my 09 seems like the internal leslie is on, although I have it 'off' and no indicator light(s) are on..Is this possible? I use the exact same settings, etc on my 700 without hearing that extra warble I'm hearing on the 09. No chorus, no vibrato, etc..Any ideas as to why?

[WesG]

I had the opportunity to try a VR-09 back-to-back with a VR-700 last night. The VR-09 is harsher in the higher registers and needs the top EQ rolled off on the board. I found playing AWSOP with the usual registration quite painful when I glissed up for the bit where the Leslie kicks on.

 

The VR-700 also has a much better overdrive. But I think the Leslie sim in the VR-09 is marginally better. It may have been how the two were set up. The VR-09 has transistor organ settings, which the VR-700 lacks. This is useful for covering Vox, Farfisa, etc parts (Doors, Animals, etc).

[WesG]

mbrenner, I am not having any problems with my M-Audio pedal, other than I don't like the range. I have used it before and after the update and did not find a difference. There is a switch on the bottom, in one position it is really finicky.

[Craig MacDonald]

Agitato/Raffkey,

 

So right off the top I'm going to state that I'm not an expert on the VK engine.. I've never owned a Roland organ before, although I've played the various iterations pretty extensively. That said, I don't think that the VR700 is the same engine as the VR-09, for a couple of reasons. It sounds very close and it's definitely not a ground up rewrite of the VK engine (and it still has that "rolandish" sound), but I think it's different, for a couple of reasons.

 

1. The VR-09 is the first to be referred to as "supernatural"

2. I don't believe that the previous versions of the VK engine had the problem with the Percussion going through the C/V (someone correct me if I'm wrong)

3. My Roland rep told me that the VR-09 engine was based on the VK7 engine (because the developers felt it was grittier sounding), whereas I think the VR700 is based on the VK8..

 

So while there is no question that the VR-09 engine is based on the same Roland VK engine there are some subtle and not so subtle differences. Maybe there is someone with more knowledge of the VK engine that could provide some additional insight here..?

 

I have one of the new Burn pedals from GSI on order, and I'm going to be testing it with the VR-09 and my Kronos (CX3 engine) as well as with my Mojo, and if I have time I will try to do some side by side testing as well. I haven't noticed any "warble" in the with the Vent/VR-09 combination, although I find the C3 chorus setting a little excessive and I'm backing off to C1 or C2, but that's not the same problem as you're describing Raffkey.

 

The question is however, have you tweaked your organ, and if so have you done anything that might be contributing..? Do you have this effect when you're using the default organ, or just on a specific organ registration that you've created??

 

Raffkey go check out my soundcloud page and listen to the VR-09 + Vent

 

 

Do you hear any of the effect that you're referring to here in this clip?

 

 

[Craig MacDonald]

For those of you who might be interested in the VR-09 and how it sounds compared to other current model clones, I'm cross posting this clip of KRK playing a SK2/VR-09/MOJO/Hammond C3 through the same "burn" leslie sim..

 

Listening to this will serve a couple of purposes.. first, because they're all going through the same leslie sim you can get a pretty good idea as to exactly how good the raw VR-09's raw organ tone is (without the Leslie sim) and how much real difference there is between the $999 VR-09 and other clones costing significantly more, and also vs the real thing. It also is gives us a bit of an example of the Burn pedal as well.

 

 

The raw tone of the VR-09 (minus leslie sim) is surprisingly good and it holds up very well against the other clones.. that said, the VR-09 doesn't sound quite as good as this, because the built in overdrive isn't quite as good as what you get from the burn pedal. The VR-09 leslie sim itself is pretty good though!!

[AnotherScott]

1. The VR-09 is the first to be referred to as "supernatural"

That is the application of a new nomenclature, but doesn't mean anything new in this case in terms of the approach to the organ engine. At some point, Roland came up with that term to describe instruments whose sounds were partially or completely modeled. The VK engine was always modeled (the tones are not based on samples; the behavior of the amp/rotary simulations are modeled implementations of the real things). They just didn't have the "SuperNATURAL" name for that approach back then. Starting when they put their tonewheel emulation into the Jupiter 80, I believe, they started calling it SN. Though in fact, at least some of the more recent engines, although still modeled, are not as sophisticated as some of the earlier models, as they have used scaled down implementations of what they had done in the VK. The Jupiters and the VR don't have all the amp modeling that is in the BK-8/8M, for example. And I think the Jupiters also don't model the actual tonewheel C/V.

 

[raffkey]

Hey Craig, thanks for the response. I'm not hearing the 'warble' or double leslie effect on your playing that I heard this weekend during a gig with my 09.

 

I'm leaving town for a few days, but when I come back I'm going to set up gear up and give a fresh listen..Maybe the warble was all in my head-a lot of room in there for something!

 

Thanks again..

[Craig MacDonald]

1. The VR-09 is the first to be referred to as "supernatural"

That is the application of a new nomenclature, but doesn't mean anything new in this case in terms of the approach to the organ engine. At some point, Roland came up with that term to describe instruments whose sounds were partially or completely modeled. The VK engine was always modeled (the tones are not based on samples; the behavior of the amp/rotary simulations are modeled implementations of the real things). They just didn't have the "SuperNATURAL" name for that approach back then. Starting when they put their tonewheel emulation into the Jupiter 80, I believe, they started calling it SN. Though in fact, at least some of the more recent engines, although still modeled, are not as sophisticated as some of the earlier models, as they have used scaled down implementations of what they had done in the VK. The Jupiters and the VR don't have all the amp modeling that is in the BK-8/8M, for example. And I think the Jupiters also don't model the actual tonewheel C/V.

AnotherScott, I made this very same argument before I learned about points 2 and 3.. I argued that ALL of the VK engines could/should be considered "supernatural" because they were all basically modelled instruments (modelling percussion and/or C/V etc)... However, once I found out that the percussion went through the C/V (which is a mistake) and my Roland rep told me that the VR-09 was based on the VK7 engine NOT the VK8, as one might expect, I concluded that this VR-09 engine was something new different (definitely different from the VR700 which is based on the VK8 I believe). This is why I'm suggesting that the VR700 and the VR-09 are different animals.. (but obviously from the same family). The assignment of Supernatural makes it different (although only Roland knows exactly how different it is). Obviously they're not THAT different, but different enough to sound a bit different, which I think was the initial question.

[AnotherScott]

AnotherScott, I made this very same argument before I learned about points 2 and 3.. I argued that ALL of the VK engines could/should be considered "supernatural" because they were all basically modelled instruments (modelling percussion and/or C/V etc)... However, once I found out that the percussion went through the C/V (which is a mistake) and my Roland rep told me that the VR-09 was based on the VK7 engine NOT the VK8, as one might expect, I concluded that this VR-09 engine was something new different (definitely different from the VR700 which is based on the VK8 I believe). This is why I'm suggesting that the VR700 and the VR-09 are different animals.. (but obviously from the same family). The assignment of Supernatural makes it different (although only Roland knows exactly how different it is).

I'm not following your reasoning. I agree that the VR700 and VR-09 are probably different animals, but I don't think the "assignment of Supernatural" matters at all. That is, they could call them both SN and yet still have them be different from each other; they could call one SN and the other not and still have them be the same as each other. The marketing decision of what to call it and the engineering decision about how to implement it do not have to be in sync. They didn't call the VK-7 SN, yet from what you say, the SN VR-09 is base on it... OTOH, the Jupiter 50 IS called SN and is not the same as the VR-09. Afar as I can tell, the SN name provides no indication either way as to whether two of their organ implementations are or are not the same. As I see it, it simply means it employs modeling.

 

Related to this, there are multiple SN pianos, and they are not all identical to each other. As discussed on another forum, one of the SN piano sounds in the FP-7F seemed to be the same as one in the RD-700NX even though it had a different name; while another SN piano sound in the RD-700NX doesn't exist at all in the FP-7F. So Roland naming doesn't always tell you as much about a sound as you might expect! Roland piano is a little different from organ, though, in that prior to their SN pianos, none of their pianos were modeled (unless you go back to the MKS-20 era), whereas prior to their SN organs (Jupiter), they did have modeled organs, they just hadn't come up with that marketing jargon yet. So they would be perfectly within their rights to put the exact VK-7 engine into the VR-09 and call it SN if that's what they wanted to do, or have two different organ engines both called SN and yet not have them be identical, as appears to be the case between the Jupiters and the VR-09.

[brenner13]

mbrenner, I am not having any problems with my M-Audio pedal, other than I don't like the range. I have used it before and after the update and did not find a difference. There is a switch on the bottom, in one position it is really finicky.

 

Aw, that darn switch! Gets me every time.

Yay, it works again. Thanks WesG.

[Craig MacDonald]

AnotherScott, I agree that the supernatural designation may be nothing more than marketing hype.. HOWEVER, based on feedback from my Roland Rep and what we know are the differences between the VR-09 and other organs based on the VK engine, the VR-09 is quite different. The interface, and editable parameters are quite different, the perc goes through the C/V (mistake of course), improved leslie sims (two different types), multiple organs including jazz/rock/new transistor, tone controls, lack of amp modelling etc.. I think that in this case the supernatural designation means more than you realize. This is just my opinion of course, but Anotherscott, do you own one? If you do own one you'll recognize that there's a lot of differences between the VR-700+VK based engines and this VR-09, much of it to do with a different/streamlined interface. These differences I associate with the "supernatural" designation. So to me it means something.

 

 

[AnotherScott]

based on feedback from my Roland Rep and what we know are the differences between the VR-09 and other organs based on the VK engine, the VR-09 is quite different.

I'm not doubting that it's different.

 

there's a lot of differences between the VR-700+VK based engines and this VR-09, much of it to do with a different/streamlined interface. These differences I associate with the "supernatural" designation.

Honestly, I think your association is fictional. The Jupiter 50 organ has the "supernatural" designation too, and (AFAIK) it doesn't even have a C1/C2/C3/V1/V2/V3 implementation, which both the older "non-SN' VKs and the SN VR-09 do. If the VK-09 is in some ways closer in implementation to a non-SN VK-7 than it is to a SN Jupiter, then how is the SN designation helping you determine what's closer to what? That's why I say, they're all employing modeling, they're all eligible to be called SN (except the phrase didn't exist until recently), but the SN designation does not, in itself, tell you how similar or different it is to any previous organ engines, whether they had the SN designation or not. The VR-09 is not identical to either Roland's previous SN-designated organ engines, nor their previous non-designated models, nor are the SN-monikered products identical to each other, nor are the non-SN-designated models, so I don't think the term provides any relevance to the discussion.

[Phil UK]

Sorry if this has already been covered (I'm new here!) but does anyone have any recommended settings for a good Hammond organ sound? Start off with the jazz setting and start from there maybe?

[AnotherScott]

Sorry if this has already been covered (I'm new here!) but does anyone have any recommended settings for a good Hammond organ sound? Start off with the jazz setting and start from there maybe?

Starting off from the jazz setting, every setting of each of the 9 drawbars is an emulation of some Hammond organ sound (including the jazz setting itself). So the question would be whether there is some particular Hammond sound you're looking for. But the whole point of a drawbar based organ is that each drawbar setting is a facsimile of the same sound as you would create on a Hammond with its own drawbars. The other variables are whether you enable chorus, vibrato, percussion... the sound is neither more or less authentic as a result, it's just a matter of whether the particular Hammond sound you're trying to emulate had those functions enabled or not. (Then there are the rotary and overdrive settings, which actually don't emulate the Hammond organ, but rather the Leslie speaker and amp that the Hammond was most typically played through.)

[Phil UK]

Thanks! I guess the Hammond sound I'm after is the 'full on' Hammond-y sound, if that makes any sense... So with the fast rotary effect etc

[AnotherScott]

If everything works as I expect it would, one big advantage of the Burn over the Ventilator for the VR-09 is that you could set all your Registrations to send MIDI to the Burn to either enable or disable its effect. So without having to worry about having to remember to change its settings or manually bypass it, you would automatically have the Burn rotary effect enabled on your organ patches, and disabled on your non-organ patches. The only downside there remains that you can't pan organ to one side and your second split or layered sound to the other, so you can't put your organ through the Burn while playing another sound without rotary effect. You're still stuck with both sounds going through the rotary effect.

[Craig MacDonald]

Sorry if this has already been covered (I'm new here!) but does anyone have any recommended settings for a good Hammond organ sound? Start off with the jazz setting and start from there maybe?

 

Phil,

 

You really didn't specify what kind of Hammond sound you're looking for, but since you suggested starting with the jazz setting I will assume you're into jazz.

 

Personally I don't play jazz and I'm not so sure that I would choose the jazz organ as a starting point even if I did play jazz. I would suggest that you start with the rock organ, because it just has more balls and character.. then turn the tone control almost all the way to the left and then turn your compression up to about 1-3 o'clock and listen to your VR-09 start to scream a bit. Then go in and edit the various parameters (high/low boost, leakage, keyclick etc) until you've got what you've got a sound that you like.

Then don't forget to save it as a registration!

 

I'd love to hear how others have gotten the sound that they liked too!!

[HammondDave]

Its all Supernatural to me....

[Phil UK]

Thanks Craig - you're right I didn't specify. There's a UK indie/rock band called The Charlatans who have the sound I'm after. One of their such song as 'Weirdo' for example. Obviously very hard to put into words!

[Craig MacDonald]

based on feedback from my Roland Rep and what we know are the differences between the VR-09 and other organs based on the VK engine, the VR-09 is quite different.

I'm not doubting that it's different.

 

there's a lot of differences between the VR-700+VK based engines and this VR-09, much of it to do with a different/streamlined interface. These differences I associate with the "supernatural" designation.

Honestly, I think your association is fictional. The Jupiter 50 organ has the "supernatural" designation too, and (AFAIK) it doesn't even have a C1/C2/C3/V1/V2/V3 implementation, which both the older "non-SN' VKs and the SN VR-09 do. If the VK-09 is in some ways closer in implementation to a non-SN VK-7 than it is to a SN Jupiter, then how is the SN designation helping you determine what's closer to what? That's why I say, they're all employing modeling, they're all eligible to be called SN (except the phrase didn't exist until recently), but the SN designation does not, in itself, tell you how similar or different it is to any previous organ engines, whether they had the SN designation or not. The VR-09 is not identical to either Roland's previous SN-designated organ engines, nor their previous non-designated models, nor are the SN-monikered products identical to each other, nor are the non-SN-designated models, so I don't think the term provides any relevance to the discussion.

 

AnotherScott I don't really want to argue with you about this, but I want to point out that the Roland Jupiter 50 does NOT identify it's organ as supernatural.. here's the description cut and pasted from the specs..

 

✓SuperNATURAL acoustic instruments include Roland's famous SuperNATURAL piano and electric pianos, as well as organs derived from Roland's VK organ sound engine

 

the supernatural reference in the above description applies only to the piano and EP's in this sentence, not to the organs (which are simply derived from the VK engine). However, I can see how this could be misunderstood.

 

Again there are significant differences between the VK7/8 engines, and the engine in the VR-09 (including the interface and editable parameterse etc. etc). I have no idea what additional technological differences exist under the hood, if any, but I think that all the differences on the surface are enough to suggest to me that the "supernatural" designation is a meaningful one in this instance, and the fact remains that the VR-09 is the first of Rolands drawbar organs to be released with the "supernatural" designation. Again, you might be right there may be very little difference that warrants the new SN moniker but there may also be more differences than you think.

[Craig MacDonald]

Thanks Craig - you're right I didn't specify. There's a UK indie/rock band called The Charlatans who have the sound I'm after. One of their such song as 'Weirdo' for example. Obviously very hard to put into words!

 

Phil,

 

Just giving these Charlatans a listen.. cool stuff.. what a gritty Hammond sound.. you're definitely going to want to start with the Rock organ!!! It would be fun to see how close I could get to this sound from my VR-09.. definitely want lot's of keyclick, leakage and overdrive.. I would start with the rock organ do what I suggested earlier, tone control all the way to the left, bump up the compression (a lot), and then add OD and reverb.. and tweak away..

[AnotherScott]

AnotherScott I don't really want to argue with you about this, but I want to point out that the Roland Jupiter 50 does NOT identify it's organ as supernatural.. here's the description cut and pasted from the specs..

 

✓SuperNATURAL acoustic instruments include Roland's famous SuperNATURAL piano and electric pianos, as well as organs derived from Roland's VK organ sound engine

 

the supernatural reference in the above description applies only to the piano and EP's in this sentence, not to the organs (which are simply derived from the VK engine). However, I can see how this could be misunderstood.

FYI, regardless of how you read the description you quoted, the Jupiter manuals do refer to the TW (tonewheel) organ as among their SuperNatural sounds.

 

BTW, AFAIK, the Jupiter 50, Jupiter 80, and Integra-7 all have the identical organ, though the fx architectures are different. And in the other thread, KRK said that the Integra and VR-09 organs are the same. So I think it's a safe bet that they are all the same "SN" organ engine, except that they did not specifically model the C/V for the SN versions in the J50/J80/I7 (unfortunately). And it is a bit of a shame that the VR-09 doesn't include all the amp/overdrive modeling of the VK-8/8M. But... $999. ;-)

[Phil UK]

Cheers Craig, that's great!

[WesG]

So, ah, where does one get replacement drawbar knobs?

[SK]

So, ah, where does one get replacement drawbar knobs?

Generally, close to where you were last standing... on the floor. At least that's where I found three of mine after setup last night.

[Mike Kent]

So, ah, where does one get replacement drawbar knobs?

 

Contact Roland, they will have parts available, although parts for new products might be delayed a few months after initial products ship.

[Craig MacDonald]

KRK has been nice enough to do some recordings of his various clones with his new GSI Burn leslie sim.. here's a link to the Roland Supernatural engine (From the Jupiter organ, basically same as the VR-09).. FYI

 

http://www.divshare.com/download/24546784-f86

[HammondDave]

So, ah, where does one get replacement drawbar knobs?

Generally, close to where you were last standing... on the floor. At least that's where I found three of mine after setup last night.

 

I am biting my tongue.......