VR-09 Hints and Tips

[AnotherScott]

Vr09 IPad app ...will it also work on the iPad mini ?

Yes. Any app that runs on the full size iPad also runs on the Mini. The knobs/sliders etc. will be smaller, of course. If you already have the Mini, just download the VR-09 Editor app from the app store and check it out. You don't have to own the VR to be able to load the app.

[rien]

I'll count the drawbar knob falling off your unit as the first defect I've heard of, and I'm not going to count the problems you've encountered when you're f-ing with sysex messages.. ;-)

 

A falling knob is what happens when moving a board without due care (gigbag, flightcase, ...), whatever the price, build quality, or "tankness" of said board. And now my board is unique: the only vr-09 in the world having only 8 drawbars and a metal stud !

 

Indeed, messing up with undocumented features does not count as a defect.

 

That said did you discover anything interesting while you were messing around with sysex messages?

 

Yes, i discovered many undocumented sysex messages, regarding split point position, part muting, spliting/layering... of course i was not able to make those messages work reliably, and that may be the reason why they are not documented. But I am confident there is a way to build a pc based librarian, allowing to save single registration, or even only specific effect settings to be applied at will...

[WesG]

Do you guys find it really hard to play expressive piano parts on this thing? I'm using velocity curve 10 and it still doesn't feel right for that stuff. No issues playing in a rock or blues band, but I'm doing Dixie and swing music today and struggling a bit..

 

One thing I've noticed is that it has organ sized keys, instead of piano sized, so I find myself playing closer to the hinge than I'm used to...should I be trying to pull back toward the key edge, maybe?

[High Diving Act]

Ya.. because of the shallow vertical key depth and organ size keys.. it is definitely more challenging to play expressive. Once I got used to it.. it was better. When I play the tones on my midi controller with piano sized keys and deeper depth.. it is better but still not perfect. The sample depth of the piano patches do limit the expressiveness somewhat also. I will say.. the more I play the piano tones and get acclimatized to the keybed.. the more I like them.. and they seem to cut well.

[To B3]

What about the expressiveness on the EPs, esp on the wurly? Barks too soon? Too noticeable layer changing?

 

When used "dry" (on the left hand of a split for example), with no effects or tone manipulation, does it sound good for blues, funk and classic rock, both as an exposed instrument, on an intro, and comping on the band mix? Or does it lack the grit and natural aspect, coming alive only when you mess with it?

 

Same question for the clav...

[High Diving Act]

What about the expressiveness on the EPs, esp on the wurly? Barks too soon? Too noticeable layer changing?

 

When used "dry" (on the left hand of a split for example), with no effects or tone manipulation, does it sound good for blues, funk and classic rock, both as an exposed instrument, on an intro, and comping on the band mix? Or does it lack the grit and natural aspect, coming alive only when you mess with it?

 

Same question for the clav...

 

Answer would be same as the similar post.. you just have to get used to the keybed sensitivity to manage most expression concerns.. Eps sound good.

[To B3]

What about the expressiveness on the EPs, esp on the wurly? Barks too soon? Too noticeable layer changing?

 

When used "dry" (on the left hand of a split for example), with no effects or tone manipulation, does it sound good for blues, funk and classic rock, both as an exposed instrument, on an intro, and comping on the band mix? Or does it lack the grit and natural aspect, coming alive only when you mess with it?

 

Same question for the clav...

 

Answer would be same as the similar post.. you just have to get used to the keybed sensitivity to manage most expression concerns.. Eps sound good.

 

Question is: sound good in a mix? solo? any poit of comparison with other boards regarding eps and clavs?

[Craig MacDonald]

To B3,

 

I've just decided to use the VR-09 for my gig tomorrow night (I can do this now that the expression pedal issue is fixed), and I'm starting to set up a number of splits and layers that I need for the various songs we're performing..

 

So I'm noticing a couple of things regarding the sounds on the lower half.. I'm creating a number of splits all with the organ on the upper part.. first Acoustic Piano, second Electric Piano, and third Strings, and just out of curiosity I've added a clavinet/organ split too.. The sounds that I put on the lower part are all absolutely clean with no effects (so you can't put the phased EP on the bottom, if you do, you lose the phaser effect).. So the Acoustic piano sounds OK without any effects, and you have your pick of the various different pianos including rock, mono, tack piano and of course the honky tonk piano and this surprised me because I assumed the "honky tonk" sound was accomplished via effects but since there are no effects on the lower sounds this must be a honky tonk "sample". So the AP's work OK on the lower part of a split.

 

On the other hand when I put the EP's on the lower manual the lack of effects are very noticeable, in that you quickly realize that there a only 3 different EP samples.. there's a Rhodes, a wurly, and FM. So in the case of the EP's when you place them on the lower part there is limited variety, and they sound pretty clean.. there is a bite to the EP's if you play with significant velocity but I have to say that they do sound VERY clean. The only effect you can add to the lower manual seems to be reverb, and this affects both upper and lower parts.

 

Clavinets are kind of the same as the AP's in that there are more different samples than the EP's.. so you have what sounds like 3-4 different pickup variations and than a couple of other synth clav options that give you more variety as well.

 

So my initial impressions are that when you create splits, the lack of effects on the lower part, reduces the number of variations of the AP/EP/Clav sounds that are available, AND they are very clear and not as dirty as you might like.

 

This clarity of these lower parts might actually be a bit of an advantage for me when I'm playing an EP on the bottom and a big fat organ chords on the top.. I think it will help it cut through the mix.. I use this EP on the bottom organ on the top configuration quite a lot for Santana tunes, and some of our 11STEPS originals. So we'll see how this sounds tomorrow night..

 

I did want to caution you that if you're looking for real dirty EP's and Clavs on the lower parts, you may not be thrilled by what the VR-09 can deliver given it's lack of effects on the lower part.

 

As I carry on and create other splits this evening if I have any more revelations, I will share them.

 

 

[To B3]

That's exactly what I wanted to know, albeit not good news... As my b3 sounds are always dirty too, the solution I guess is a tube pre or amp sim pedal... thanks craig, looking forward if you have new discoveries...

 

Or... Roland could make the effects available on the lower part too independently from the upper on the next update... maybe the experts on the roland blog might know if the architecture permits that and if it was out "by choice" when the Vr was lauched?

[Craig MacDonald]

To B3,

 

I think that the lack of effects on the lower part is a resuylt of the limitations of the processing power available on this low budget keyboard. I'm not sure the VR-09 has the capacity to do that.. maybe, but I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for this to appear in the next update.. but if it did that would be very cool..

 

Maybe the external tube preamp is the answer, if you really want more grit. I have a speakeasy vintage preamp sitting here and maybe I'll give it a try.. if you're playing mostly clav/EP/Hammond a bit of tube grit might help all of them.. I expect you'd have to turn it off for the acoustic piano.. ;-)

[HammondDave]

As much as I loved the Speakeasy stuff (and I owned several models), unless you have it chained before the Leslie (as I had with mine), the distortion does not fit in well post rotary effect...

 

But for EP's and other non Leslie sounds, that may just be the ticket! I loved the sound of my EP's through the Speakeasy. But again, another piece of expensive gear to lug around....

 

I am really digging performing with my Motif XS and VB3.... But now I lug a Macbook Pro and a mixer with me... Will it ever end?

[Craig MacDonald]

As much as I loved the Speakeasy stuff (and I owned several models), unless you have it chained before the Leslie (as I had with mine), the distortion does not fit in well post rotary effect...

 

But for EP's and other non Leslie sounds, that may just be the ticket! I loved the sound of my EP's through the Speakeasy. But again, another piece of expensive gear to lug around....

 

I am really digging performing with my Motif XS and VB3.... But now I lug a Macbook Pro and a mixer with me... Will it ever end?

 

The problem is that where I would really want the preamp is on an EP organ split where the EP on the lower part of he split has no effects whatsoever.. And given that ther are no separate outputs for the upper/lower parts you can't apply the preamp to the EP only..

 

I played using just my VR-09 last night and I will post my thoughts a bit later..

[HammondDave]

I think the best sounding Clonewheel rig I played was when I had my XK3c going through a Speakeasy AMA then into a Leslie 2101... Now that was the bomb!

 

I just gave my friend a hard time about searching for the holy grail for his live Leslie rig. I just advised him to give it up and buy a Ventilator...

 

So Craig.. Are you running your VR-09 through your Vent?

[Craig MacDonald]

HD, not last night I thought I would give it a try on it's own last night.. Previously, when I used the VR-09 JUST as a drawbar organ with my Kronos, I put the VR through the Ventilator and it sounded pretty good (doesn't everything through the vent)..

 

Last night it was the VR-09 all by itself.. I'll comment on it in a separate post..

[HammondDave]

Even though I was skeptical at first, I must agree that the Ventilator does indeed make any clone sound better...

[WesG]

I agree, I tried the VR09 through a vent couple of weeks ago, and it sounds better, especially if you like close miking or overdrive.

 

Tried to do Organ + Sax split on Friday night, I play both parts for Mustang Sally. Couldn't figure out in the heat of the moment how to get sax without Leslie. Maybe I should have put sax on the bottom?

[Craig MacDonald]

OK so last night was my first gig with the VR-09 all by itself, and here are my thoughts..

 

First of all, why when I have all this great gear (Mojo + Kronos) would I choose to go with the VR-09 last night.. Well it's a very small venue, we basically play in the front window of a very small bar.. AND because I'm in a baseball tournament I really didn't have time to finish my last game and travel to the gig and set up my regular rig.. VR-09 + X stand + QSC (what a simple rig).. So how did it go?

 

Well, because the VR-09 can only make 2 sounds simultaneously I had to put together a set list that didn't require more than two sounds at once.. so songs like the Beatles "the end" medley where I play piano, strings, brass and organ, I just can't pull it off.. I also had to pull "Frankenstein" and a number of other covers we do.. so it was a streamlined set list.

 

The VR-09 did very well. I play primarily organ and the leslie sim sounded great at volume through my QSC K10's (it's a very good leslie sim)... the VR-09 organ is a little thin on the top end, and I like most clones the Overdrive isn't that great, but it has a very interesting character to it, that seemed to work quite well for some of the Deep Purple stuff and other tunes we play with an overdriven organ sound.. so is it perfectly realistic sounding.. no, but it sounds good!

 

I had some issues with relative volume across a few registrations.. Unfortunately you really can't judge this perfectly until you're playing at volume with your band.. some sounds just cut better than others.. So I had one EP patch that I created for the song "Black Friday" and the bottom end was way over the top volume wise, and the strings I had set up on the lower part of an organ patch didn't cut as well as I thought they would.. and there were a few other things that I need to tweak.. There were some songs we played last night that never sounded better.. We played "love me two times" by the Doors and I used one of the Harpsichord patches with some chorus on it and it sounded great..

 

So overall, I would say that the VR-09 worked well.

 

Now a couple things I don't like.

 

1. I don't like the fact that whatever sound you put on the bottom part of a split has no effects.. the EP's sound very dead on the bottom.. I always have a nice chorus or some other effect on my EP's and while it worked, it was less than ideal. However it's not just the lack of effects on the bottom but the lack of EQ tone control (which only seems to act on the upper sound, I have to look into this more)..

 

2. It's a real pain in the ass to organize registrations.. there is NO way to insert or delete, or move individual registrations around.. how the F!@# are you supposed to organize registrations into set lists for a gig..? This wouldn't be so bad if there was an easier way to move through registrations.. you can use the dial, but it's a bit flakey, and again there is no up/down button.. and since there are only 4 registration buttons and 25 banks, I find the whole registration scheme cumbersome. It works, but it's a bit cumbersome.. When they come out with the ability to load/save registrations I hope this includes the ability to organize registrations within the VR-09 as well.. This keyboard is supposed to be for "live" gigging and I appreciate the cool "on the fly" style of interface, but gigging musicians need the ability to easily organize sets.. and that's a pain in the ass on this machine.

 

So there I've vented a bit, on these two issues, however, I still think that this keyboard really is amazing for all that it does and all that is jammed into this 12 pounds.. It does work for me in a pinch as an all-in-one (for certain situations), and it is also a great backup for both my Kronos and my Mojo.. I can also see it being a great starter board, and I'm sure Roland will sell a ton of these to younger musicians.

 

Bottom line, we played this tiny club last night and the crowd loved us, we may have gone over even better than we did last time when I used my full "A" rig, and no one said "hmm the keys don't sound as good tonight".. no one noticed the difference, except my band mates of course who much prefer me to play with my Mojo and also prefer to play the more complicated songs (that I couldn't play with just two sounds).

 

So, I have to say that the VR-09 worked quite well, perfect, no, but very workable.

[Craig MacDonald]

WesG,

 

I agree.. and personally love the close mic sound.. and the vents OD is second to none.

 

Yes if you put the non-organ sound on the bottom of a split you doesn't go through the leslie sim, but if you put it on the non-organ sound on the top and you turn the leslie sim on both parts go through the leslie.. another quirk.. Because the VR-09 has a dedicated leslie on/off and speed control buttons you would think it would be easy to have it act ONLY on the organ sound whether it was on the top or the bottom..

 

You'll probably find that you can work around most things.. it can be a bit inconvenient however..

[AnotherScott]

It's a real pain in the ass to organize registrations.. there is NO way to insert or delete, or move individual registrations around.. how the F!@# are you supposed to organize registrations into set lists for a gig..? This wouldn't be so bad if there was an easier way to move through registrations.. you can use the dial, but it's a bit flakey, and again there is no up/down button.. and since there are only 4 registration buttons and 25 banks, I find the whole registration scheme cumbersome. It works, but it's a bit cumbersome.. When they come out with the ability to load/save registrations I hope this includes the ability to organize registrations within the VR-09 as well.. This keyboard is supposed to be for "live" gigging and I appreciate the cool "on the fly" style of interface, but gigging musicians need the ability to easily organize sets.. and that's a pain in the ass on this machine.

As I've mentioned before, I find those scroll wheels terrible for live use. So I would only use the 16 registrations that I could get to with direct button access, and I would try to find a way to cover the repertoire through a combination of 16 registrations and live front panel control.

 

But assuming that you can call up all 100 registrations with MIDI Program Change commands, the solution to needing quick access to all 100 is to use an iPad program like Set List Maker, which, coincidentally, also solves your other issue of being able to re-order registrations on demand, placing them in whatever order you need for the set list for a particular gig. And lots of VR owners are likely to have iPads, not just because of how common they are in general, but also because of the VR-specific iPad apps that Roland has released. Also, though, SLM will even run on an iPhone or an iPod Touch. But if you have none of those things, there are some other devices you can get, which can be less expensive, that simply send MIDI Program Changes. You should be able to get your "up/down" button with a Tech 21 MIDI Mouse, or 10-button direct selection with a foot pedal like a Rolls MP-128 or Rocktron MIDI Mate, or tabletop unit like the ones at http://www.ebay.com/itm/251327407105 (though at its price, I'd say it's only for the people who are truly i-device averse) or http://www.midi-hardware.com/index.php?section=prod_info&product=PCkpad (currently unavailable, though).

[Craig MacDonald]

AnotherScott thanks for the suggestions.. good info.. For me using this just as a back up (or a board for small gigs) I'll just put up with the issues and hope that it's resolved with the ability to store/save individual registrations.. here keeping my fingers crossed that it happens soon.

[HammondDave]

Interesting review, Craig... Can you imagine if Yamaha came out with a light weight Motif like keyboard that had a great Hammond/Leslie sim? Master Mode would be a great solution to the issues that you ran into last night. Maybe Roland can learn from Yamaha on that.

[agitato]

Craig, how do the registrations of the vr09 compare with those of the sk1? Might the sk1 be easier to deal with in those regards? Just asking.

[High Diving Act]

As I've mentioned before, I find those scroll wheels terrible for live use. So I would only use the 16 registrations that I could get to with direct button access, and I would try to find a way to cover the repertoire through a combination of 16 registrations and live front panel control. [/quote

 

+1

 

I use all my upper registrations as "go to" templates.. not for live set list senarios. As Scott mentioned.. the first 4 banks are great for live purposes. Anything I require beyond that is handled one bank at a time... as I would never use the scroll wheel to try and locate sounds live within a song. I personally never exceed more then 4 patches per song. Between songs.. scrolling to the required banks is a breeze. The ipad/set list maker is also a great solution to manage patch lists if indeed a viable option.

 

Craig mentioned there is no up or down button.. but I would consider the "next" button an up button. Does bite that they put a next but no previous... very strange.

[niacin]

I've now used the VR-09 for a handful of gigs, typically a tiny stage for an 8-piece funk band on a shared bill with 10 minutes set-up and soundcheck. Maybe 80% B3. It's perfect for this sort of thing. Like Craig, it's the effects limitations that I'm struggling with. On one tune I'm playing with crossed arms because I've got rhodes on the top and a synth lead on the bottom so that I can have the effects on the rhodes (Yeh I know I should learn to play lead with my left hand, lol). I'd have been happy to pay more for a second effects block, but the ability to designate which part is run through the effects would get me some of the way there.

 

I'm pretty happy now with the wurli patch I'm using, but I can't get a good rhodes. It sounds very thin. Has anyone got a decent rhodes sound happening?

[AnotherScott]

Craig, how do the registrations of the vr09 compare with those of the sk1? Might the sk1 be easier to deal with in those regards? Just asking.

I would give the SK1 the edge. If I understand correctly, you can access any patch directly with its 10-key keypad, or if you prefer, you can assign 10 patches to single-button recall.

[Craig MacDonald]

AnotherScott, I didn't keep my sk1 long enough to go through the motions of creating and saving patches/presets or trying to organize them into set lists.. So i cant really provide any insight on this. However I have to think that it's easier than the VR-09.

 

The 25 banks X 4 registrations (and only 4 buttons) is less than ideal, basically giving you only 4 buttons and 4 registrations that you can access easily.

[To B3]

For me, at least, 16 registrations is enough even for those gigs where the VR is the only keyboard.

 

Craig, can you record some sound examples of Wurly/b3, rhodes/b3 and clavs/b3 splits, going through your tube pre with a litle crunch/saturation?

[Craig MacDonald]

To B3 if I have time I'll try to do this for you, but it won't be today sorry...

[Craig MacDonald]

I just realized that I forgot to mention one thing in my gig report (and I was reminded of it by something in the XK-1c thread).. I almost accidentally pushed my VR-09 off the X-stand on Saturday night with a vigorous palm slide up the keyboard during a solo.

 

I think that as these keyboards get lighter this is going to become a bigger problem.. but it's probably pretty easily fixed with some velcro but I thought it was worth mentioning here.

[To B3]

Okay Craig, when you have the time

 

And about the light weight, that's a problem I like to have.