Digital Piano for Jazz gigs

[B3bluesman59]

Yamaha CP 5: $2500.00 55 lbs.

 

Casio PX 3: $650.00 23 lbs.

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IMHO you can't beat the PX 3 for all around performance and value. I have had mine for 2 1/2 years, play approximately 75 gigs a year with it and have had zero problems.

[LX88]

At the time that the Casio PX3 came out I just happened upon a very lightly used Roland RD300GX for 600 dollars,and I think that the PX3 was around 700 at Guitar Center back then, in the fall of 2010.

 

The thing that sold me on the Roland was the Rhodes. I had to live with the Superior Grand AP sample for a while but I have come to appreciate it, because at that time my ear was completely dialed into Yamaha.

 

One of these days I am going to have a Casio. I think that as committed as Mike Martin and his team are, someday they are going to nail it ( I do have a WK3000 by the way for portable lower manual sound on organ ).

 

But I did not bite at the PX3 or the PX 350. I am waiting to hear the PX5S but I don't care how light it is or how many features it has....it has to make me wish that I wouldn't prefer to hear something else.

[loxley11]

It hasn't been mentioned here yet, but how the instrument is amplified may effect your choice. Will it be used in mono or stereo?

 

Not sure yet, though what I have access to at the moment is mono. I was originally hoping the 2K would cover board and amp, but you know how those things turn out...

[ProfD]

I would recommend the Yamaha CP33 if the primary sound is AP. But, the Korg SV-1 is a lot more fun to play especially if the OP finds the APs passable.

[Dave Ferris]

Also, any opinions about the SV-1 since no one has mentioned it?

I have the SV-1 73. I think it's a great instrument, but I wouldn't recommend it for gigs requiring predominantly AP sounds. If you play a lot of Rhodes/Wurli then fine - little better IMO - but for acoustic piano I find that the slightly truncated initial decay becomes off-putting, and the action/sound connection is not the best, although RH3 is not as bad as some people suggest (leaving aside issues such as unexpected note cut-off etc.). The underlying piano tone is, however, very pleasant, full and rounded, and the SV-1 does have easy EQ adjustment.

 

That pretty much nails it. I owned two SV-1s. I re-bought the second after Korg released their "soundpack 2" sounds. It did improve things in regard to a smoother and longer decay on the APs, but ultimately not what I was used to hearing and feeling with the Yamahas.

 

I think it's definitely a great board for an R&B, Funk, Blues, rock player though. But from what I like to get out of these DPs, it's not for an acoustic based jazz player that needs the finesse, nuances and subtleties from the APs that the Yamahas, Rolands, and to a lesser extent, Nords offer.

[AnotherScott]

What I do need:

88 weighted keys with a decent action

...

As light as possible

The above would likely lead you to Casio... the question would be whether the sound works for you. But if it doesn't, within your $2k budget, you can dedicate a laptop computer to it and have pretty much any sound you want.

 

Within the Casio range, the PX-5S will give the most controller functionality, so you can set up its buttons (and other controls) so that it essentially behaves as if the sounds in your laptop were in the piano, so once you set it up. you can basically ignore the presence of the laptop.

[ITGITC]

 

I don't care how light it is or how many features it has....it has to make me wish that I wouldn't prefer to hear something else.

 

Yup

 

...nailed it.

 

 

[resigned]

Also, any opinions about the SV-1 since no one has mentioned it?

I have the SV-1 73. I think it's a great instrument, but I wouldn't recommend it for gigs requiring predominantly AP sounds. If you play a lot of Rhodes/Wurli then fine - little better IMO - but for acoustic piano I find that the slightly truncated initial decay becomes off-putting, and the action/sound connection is not the best, although RH3 is not as bad as some people suggest (leaving aside issues such as unexpected note cut-off etc.). The underlying piano tone is, however, very pleasant, full and rounded, and the SV-1 does have easy EQ adjustment.

 

That pretty much nails it. I owned two SV-1s. I re-bought the second after Korg released their "soundpack 2" sounds. It did improve things in regard to a smoother and longer decay on the APs, but ultimately not what I was used to hearing and feeling with the Yamahas.

 

I think it's definitely a great board for an R&B, Funk, Blues, rock player though. But from what I like to get out of these DPs, it's not for an acoustic based jazz player that needs the finesse, nuances and subtleties from the APs that the Yamahas, Rolands, and to a lesser extent, Nords offer.

 

This is why you neeeed more than one DP! Collect the entire set!

 

[Dave Ferris]

I probably would have multiple DPs if I had the space. This sucker takes up most of the room though. A heck of a predicament to be in, I know.

http://www.divshare.com/download/24060463-ebe

 

 

[voxpops]

I've heard the stretching on those things is really bad - like almost nine feet!

[allan_evett]

 

 

 

 

I probably would have multiple DPs if I had the space. This sucker takes up most of the room though. A heck of a predicament to be in, I know.

http://www.divshare.com/download/24060463-ebe

 

 

Yeah... I feel your pain.

[area51recording]

Sux to be you Dave!

 

Seriously, it's gotta KILL you to play that beauty at home and then have to settle for any kind of DP at a gig.....

[humannoyed]

Alright guys that's getting a little too much visually braggadocious.... do you want us to break one of the 10 commandments? :smile:

 

CP33 user here, and like the OP I have an ES8 parked at the house. Just too bulky to gig with, so I got a used ES rack. I really only use the basses and EPs when I gig with it. The AP in the CP33 is definitely a level above the APs in the ES. The Rhodes sound in the CP33 is usable, but too "smooth" and "tame" compared to nice ones in

in the ES. The bass sounds are also not as good in the CP, but I will still use them on a short gig where I don't want to bother with the rack. I play LH bass in a trio.

 

As much as I would like to try the CP5, I almost don't want to right now. As they say - ignorance is bliss.

 

[Dave Ferris]

Sux to be you Dave!

 

Seriously, it's gotta KILL you to play that beauty at home and then have to settle for any kind of DP at a gig.....

 

That's part of the reason I'm semi-retired.... Seriously, I wish I could afford to be. I could just be happy practicing the rest of my life without having to mess with all the bs of gigging I would miss playing with a few select friends that I feel a musical bond with, other then that...later for the whole mess.

 

I'd say 75% of the time I'm out on a gig my feelings are-would I rather be up here playing with these people, for these people, or sitting in my studio playing Chopin or working on my jazz ? What's the title of that song ?..."Alone Together"..

 

But yes, the initial shock at a gig of turning a DP on and first hearing the keyboard is usually a mental image of... After the the first 15 minutes or so when my ears and hands get used to it and I settle in, I'm usually ok with it.

 

Always felt good playing the CP5 though. Very few times if any I'd felt...man this ain't happenin'.

 

Yeah LX88 made an excellent point (pertaining to any DP) with

I don't care how light it is or how many features it has....it has to make me wish that I wouldn't prefer to hear something else.

[LX88]

Wow... thanks for the support in what I am trying to say guys....

 

Last year I got pretty beat up by some clonewheelers by giving an honest impression of a very popular board that I thought was suspect, sound quality wise.

 

And I do not want to create enemies by being disrespectful of other people's choice of gear. We all hear things differently. Some need to cut through a mix . Others want to hear warmth from a DP, others want clarity.

 

Plus, I really like it when I see participation from the reps and designers that participate on this forum. It shows that they really listen to us and respect our needs.

 

At the same time , there was a very good quote I saw from organ tech Bob Schleicher that he used at the top of his website.

 

" When good enough......isn't"

 

 

[Chris Link]

Great thread. I'm in the market to replace my old S90. I'd love to find a lightweight DP. An Electro 2 and PC3LE7 work great for country, blues and rock gigs, but I need a good AP sound and feel for solo jazz and the piano/vocal duo.

 

The S90 sounds fine, but with its hard case is a bitch to schlep around. I know, I know... It's nothing compared to moving a Hammond, Rhodes or CP70, but I do this stuff for fun and mental health maintenance and am not as young as I used to be.

[kanker.]

Wow... thanks for the support in what I am trying to say guys....

 

Last year I got pretty beat up by some clonewheelers by giving an honest impression of a very popular board that I thought was suspect, sound quality wise.

 

And I do not want to create enemies by being disrespectful of other people's choice of gear. We all hear things differently. Some need to cut through a mix . Others want to hear warmth from a DP, others want clarity.

If you're making enemies because of an opinion about a piece of gear, it ain't your fault. Strong disagreements are normal. People taking their ball and going home is pathetic. It just ain't that deep. Keep on keepin on man.

[Ekewaka]

I sometimes get compliments of a bass guitar that sounds good, a $170 Squier VM modified that I got used for $190 as a beater bass. All this talk about how good something sounds is so subjective. And me thinks the fingers and brains has more to do it than the technology.

[Chris Link]

Picked up an open box Yamaha P105 today at Guitar Center for $522. Liked the piano sounds (and acoustic piano is all I need it for) and the internal speakers much better than the Casio PX 350.

[Dave Ferris]

I'm very curious to play the P105 now. Maybe tomorrow at the Pasadena GC.

[Ekewaka]

For a plain piano sound, P105 is really nice. If you want even more digital piano sounds and huge amount of extensibility to pull off just any kind of gig, PX-5S is suddenly really nice.

[loxley11]

So I've given some consideration to the suggestion of having onboard speakers, and am starting to lean in that direction now. My thinking is this: I think it would definitely help with monitoring, but also I think it might allow me to get away with a simpler main speaker. On its own, a speakerless board needs a nice hi-powered, clean (read: expensive) amp and decent sized speaker (or several smaller speakers) to really do the sound justice. At the moment I have access to a JBL eon 10" (8"?) powered speaker, and my hypothesis is by combining this with the onboard speakers, what I would consider a less-than-satisfactory single speaker may be passable with the added spatial dimension and depth the onboard speakers will contribute.

 

I haven't tested this out yet, so what do you guys think? I was thinking primarily of the P155/P105 or the Kawai ES4. If this worked, it'd save me the cost of a whole new sound system. I'm not sure if the JBL is big enough to get a satisfactory low end, but maybe I could pick up a something like a used Hartke 12" bass amp for not too much?

 

Then there's the EQ issue, which is even more important since the JBL has no tone control of its own. Naturally there are very few boards (is anyone surprised?) that have onboard speakers and a dedicated EQ (along with other nice controls found on more expensive boards). This is probably what contributed to my association of onboard speakers with low-end boards. The one exception I can think of is the CP300, and it weighs as much as the Motif, so that's not really an option. The P155 has a "bright/mellow" control which I doubt would be of much practical use for a live room, and the P105/Kawais don't seem to have anything (at least not easily accessible). I'm wondering if there's a tabletop parametric EQ that would work and would not be too noisy. Anyone know of anything like this? I remember ART making a lot of products with that small, stand-alone functionality, but they don't seem to have as much of a presence as I remember.

 

Then there's the original plan, which would be coupling something like a CP50 or 300GX with a ~$500 keyboard amp. More expensive, but maybe a simpler solution after all.

 

Thoughts? Opinions? Insults? Send 'em my way

[loxley11]

To respond to Kenekahuna's last post, I just need a piano sound. For other gigs with B3/EPs and some piano, I use a V-combo which, say what you will about it, has proved to be a very useful and versatile board. That's why I've zeroed in on the simpler "piano only" type boards for this setting. The P105 is indeed an enticing board for the price.

[Ekewaka]

You could indeed save money and also get a nice self-powered 10" speaker. I'm getting an RCF 310A next week so then I could write a review of that one, you could get those below $500. I personally would not trust a built-in speaker for gigs, especially for loud people eating while you play :-).

[Jazz+]

A mono sound system? Isn't the digital piano recorded with a stereo (2 mic) sound?

[Ekewaka]

I think it has mentioned multiple times but the audience seldom if ever hears stereo. It's mostly the keyboard player that desires it. Even worse, based on the placement there could be phase cancellations and different sound experiences for the end users.

 

Or think this way, a real piano is pretty much in the center and the little stereo you hear is very close the unit, not spread across the whole stage. Unless it's a really wide piano, of course, one for the Guinness record book.

[loxley11]

@ Jazz+: Are you saying your recommendation is a keyboard with onboard speakers plus a stereo main speaker? I was kind of hoping the onboard speakers plus the mono main would provide something similar to a stereo effect, due to the spreading out of the sound sources, like a real piano. I am in partial agreement with kenekahuna in that I think just onboard speakers aren't sufficiently loud for a gig, but I do think they will be heard as part of the overall sound, especially lower volume jazz gigs.

 

My guess is that the "stereo" piano sample captures what the player would hear i.e. more low frequencies in the left channel and higher frequencies in the right channel. Is this correct? If so, it doesn't seem like this would be a very useful stereo image for an audience. That said, how much of a problem would playing in mono cause? Are there phase problems/cancellations? I imagine it can't be that bad, only because lots of people have to run their keyboards in mono out of necessity. (Rarely do I ever get to run my v-combo in stereo for those gigs, unless I whine to the sound guy that the leslie sounds better in stereo).

[AnotherScott]

I like internal speakers for two reasons: the sense of vibrations under your fingers as you play (adds some realism to the experience), and for low-volume uses, it may be all you need, making set-up faster and simpler. By low-volume uses, I mean things like a cocktail hour solo gig, a living room unplugged/vocal rehearsal, etc. If you need substantial volume for a full band gig, you'll need a separate amp/speaker, and I think the presence of the internal speakers will usually be inconsequential from the audience's perspective (i.e. it won't really let you get a lesser sound system). Still, you don't have to get anything particularly big or pricey. As mentioned many times, an EV ZXa1 goes a long way.

[Dave Ferris]

I'm very curious to play the P105 now. Maybe tomorrow at the Pasadena GC.

 

Did get to check this out and sorry to say, I don't think it would work for me. Didn't care at all for the action, plus the sound seemed thin, more harsh then I expected, and had less sustain in comparison to, again, the P155 which was an arm's length away for quick comparison.

 

Listening to a few different yt videos, it sounded pretty nice when recorded, but was disappointing when playing and listening through its internal speakers and headphones.

[LarsHarner]

For anyone considering a P105; why not a SP280? Well aware NH is not up there with GH- but the newer NH is comprable to GHS. Personally, the speakers are fantastic. To me it sounds more natural than Casio's sample. I don't care if they brag about 16,000 velocity levels. The Korg sounds more natural but thats only my opinion. The board probably weighs 38 pounds- almost as much as a P155.