Roland V-Combo VR-09

[AnotherScott]

If the Midi Solutions unit is powered by the midi out from the VR-09, you're also getting note on messages sent out? So you're sending a note on message direct to the intenal sound engine AND out the midi out, via the Midi Soultions pedal unit, and back in to the VR-09, which means the note will double trigger, no?

No. The box lets you select whether or not you want the signal at the IN to be echoed at the OUT.

[Leh173]

Slight OT but what I love about these forums is the things you find out about like this MIDI solutions footswitch box... there have been several times I wished the Fantom G6 had more pedal inputs, and the fact this box can be programmed to toggle between sys-ex commands is brilliant! Great idea.

 

As for the VR-09, sadly as a player of some Roland gear, I'm not surprised they is a "file under dumb" moment... they should fix this OS up... I don't know what happens but they always come up with great ideas and products and then do something silly like this... just odd...

[Craig MacDonald]

If the Midi Solutions unit is powered by the midi out from the VR-09, you're also getting note on messages sent out? So you're sending a note on message direct to the intenal sound engine AND out the midi out, via the Midi Soultions pedal unit, and back in to the VR-09, which means the note will double trigger, no?

No. The box lets you select whether or not you want the signal at the IN to be echoed at the OUT.

 

There are still a few things that would have to be sorted out for me to be comfortable that this would work.. First of all you can't turn off the Expression Pedal.. there is no "off" parameter, but you can change it to control something benign like "song start/stop" with the song empty. Second, despite the expression pedal being changed to something else the VR-09 would have to still send it's expression controller data out on the TxMidi Control Channel (and if it wasn't sending it as expression data you'd have to figure out what midi controller it was sending the data as). Assuming this was the case, you could then use the midi solutions box to direct the expression controller data, to the correct midi channel, and hope that the VR-09 will still respond to external midi expression info, despite the expression pedal being turned off (or changed to something else).

 

There are a bunch of conditions that would have to be satisfied for this to all work.. I don't have a midi solutions box, but I could probably test this by attaching my Kronos to the VR-09 via midi and doing a bit of testing.. I'll see if I have time to do this later today.

 

All that said.. I've picked up this VR-09 as a small, streamline all-in-one gig rig for small gigs.. so dragging around a midi solutions box and extra midi cables was not part of the plan.. Roland needs to fix this!!! This solution may get me by until they do come to their senses..

[Craig MacDonald]

As for the VR-09, sadly as a player of some Roland gear, I'm not surprised they is a "file under dumb" moment... they should fix this OS up... I don't know what happens but they always come up with great ideas and products and then do something silly like this... just odd...

 

Yes I agree, this VR-09 is a really great little product and this is a really silly oversight.

 

Each of the 3 parts; organ, piano, and synth ALL have a separate volume controls on the control panel.. The organ has a drawbar to control volume and the piano/synth sections both have level up/down controls, and I suppose the engineers thought this was adequate, however that's NOT the same as having expression pedal control, especially when playing organ or splits/layers that include organ.

 

I'm going to have to decide very quickly if I can work with this or not.. I REALLY like the VR-09, but this expression pedal thing is going to be a major frustration for me.

 

[AnotherScott]

I just checked the Midi implementation document and it seems that the TXMIDI Channel is for transmission of expression pedal and PC that are stored in registrations.

 

SO, it looks like you can have expression and program changes sent on a separate channel.. If this is correct then perhaps I can fix my expression pedal issue without a midi control box and just set the TxMidi channel to send expression to the channel the organ is on, and route a midi cable from the midi out to the midi in..?

Based on that description, I don't think that would work, because the expression pedal would be "seen" by the entirety of what you're playing (i.e. both parts of a split or layer) before being sent out the TxMIDI channel. The only way I could imagine such a "loop back" MIDI cable routing working is possibly somehow in conjunction with "Local Off" but that doesn't even exist in the VR-09.

 

The only aspect of what you said there that I think might be helpful is the part about trying to "send expression to the channel the organ is on" -- if there is such a channel, that's what gives you the potential control you want, but you would want to send expression data directly to that channel, not route it through the rest of the VR-09 first. So again, the answer is the MIDI Solutions box. And as I said in msg #2487401, I think the key might be "Mode 2" which is the mode where external MIDI arriving on selected channels (1 through 4, 11, 13, and 16) is routed to the keyboard sound generator. If one of those channels corresponds to the "part" of the keyboard you want to control, setting the MIDI Solutions box to that channel would be the answer.

 

Strange! The VR-760 and VR-700 had decel, mic angle and distance, and treble/rotor balance adjustability.

I guess this is one of the area of compromises.. at least for now. There is nothing stopping them from adding these parameters later in later releases.

Such optimism! ;-) Actually, there may be design decisions preventing it. But either way, I doubt the lack of that ability is impeding sales, so I would be surprised if they put their resources there. And that's a pretty "wonky" request, compared to some of the more widely useful things that have been discussed here.

 

I don't know what happens but they always come up with great ideas and products and then do something silly like this... just odd...

That is their M.O. I compare Roland's designers to Steve Jobs. Alternating flashes of brilliance and "what were they thinking" design decisions, with, apparently, little regard to actual consumer desires. Personally, I have found lots of Roland gear to be very close to the mark but frustratingly crippled by a dumb move or two, and I know I'm not alone in feeling that way.

 

I've picked up this VR-09 as a small, streamline all-in-one gig rig for small gigs.. so dragging around a midi solutions box and extra midi cables was not part of the plan..

You can velcro the MS box directly to the VR. Case and perhaps some short right-angle MIDI cables permitting, you could probably leave it fully connected. So, possibly there's nothing extra to "drag" around or connect at the gig.

 

Roland needs to fix this!!! This solution may get me by until they do come to their senses..

I would not count on their "coming to their senses." Every now and then, they surprise us. The Jupiter seems to be getting some love, the 2.0 upgrade to the 80 was very significant. But usually, what you see is what you get. I would not be surprised if the 80 exception was due to a need to move boxes that were piling up unsold, forcing them to address issues that were preventing sales and loading them up with inventory. But if the VR-09 sales meet their expectations, I wouldn't hold my breath for software enhancements, just based on past history. But I'd love to be surprised!

[Craig MacDonald]

I think we agree on this.. there are a number of issues that could interfere with the midi solutions box working, and also my optimism regarding whether or not this will get fixed may be very naive.

 

It also strikes me as being a bit of a vicious circle regarding what they will or won't change.. if sales are low, they may add more feature/function or do nothing assuming that the market isn't what they expected.. On the other hand if sales are good, they might say "everyone loves this thing so why change the way the way it works". The reality is that this feature (or lack of) could be impacting sales.. will they recognize this and invest the time in it.

 

I really think that there are a few minor changes that they could make to this VR-09 and it would be a killer product. Fix this problem, add some mellotron sounds, improve the midi implementation and controller functions.

 

By the way, the VR-09 supports the PK Pedals, and it has a "pedalbass mode" and I would presume that it supports any midi pedals, but I haven't found any way to control the pedal drawbars..?

 

I'm going to have to connect my PK-5's and see what happens..

[AnotherScott]

BTW, if you happen to come across a Digitech MC2 (sadly not made anymore), that would be the simplest way to go. It's an expression pedal that plugs into a MIDI port, and it has a knob on it that you set for which of the 16 channels you want it to send on. So there's no extra boxes or cabling, and no programming. Just plug it in, set it for the channel you want (you could just flip through them all and find it by trial and error), and you're done. It runs on battery. (Or you can attach an AC adapter, but that's a nuisance.) It also has an additional knob that allows you to select other functions besides expression, very cool little device.

[Ken Beaumont]

I'm not an expert on these things by any means but page 2 of the midi implementation says:

 

If you need to independently control the parts that are layered on the

keyboard part, you must use system exclusive messages for the keyboard part (p.11) [VR-09].

 

Then on page 11 under organ:

 

00 3C | 0aaa aaaa | ORGAN LEVEL (0 - 127)

 

And according to the midi-solutions website the pedal controller can send system exclusive messages Link

 

What am I missing here? Granted it should be in the OS, and its a rather dumb oversight. But I don't think the work around sounds too difficult. The difficulty to me seems to be initially programming the box. Then its velcro strap it to your stand, connect 2 cables and your good to go.

[Craig MacDonald]

Toano88,

 

Thanks for the suggestion, I hadn't thought about using this pedal controler box rather than the standard midi solutions box that I was familiar with, but this does look like a simple easy solution (although it's a pain in the ass to have to carry another box). Thanks, I may end up doing this (hoping that it's only a temporary thing).

 

 

[Craig MacDonald]

Toano88,

 

I was reading the midi implementation further and what you quoted was from the Volume control, but if you read under the "Expression (controller number 11)" it states that "The volume of individual keyboard parts cannot be controlled independantly" so I'm a little confused.. with organ we're talking "expression" rather than "volume" so I'm not sure which of these two contradictory statements applies here.

[Ken Beaumont]

I took this:

* If received on the Control Channel while MIDI IN Mode 2 is in effect, this changes

the VR-09s overall volume in the same manner as the expression pedal. The volume

of individual keyboard parts cannot be controlled independently [VR-09]

 

As meaning you can't do it in MIDI mode 2 using the expression pedal input CC#11. Again I'm no expert at this. Too bad Sven left us!

[Craig MacDonald]

I flipped a note to my Roland rep to see if he can get an answer for me.. volume is clear but expression is a little fuzzy.. it says that expression messages can be used independently from volume messages but it really doesn't say that "expression" can be controlled independently, on different parts.

 

As soon as I have an answer I will post it.. this could really be quite an easy solution (assuming I can figure out how to program the midi solutions pedal controller)

 

Sven may have left you but not me.. Sven is one of my buddies, we worked together at a music store for a couple years, and he sold me the VR-09!!

[brenner13]

Hmmm...no user bank to store synth patches? Seems an odd omission with the iPad app offering so many controls and hundreds of PCM's.

 

 

...Oh that's what the registrations are for.

[AnotherScott]

Toano88,

 

Thanks for the suggestion, I hadn't thought about using this pedal controler box rather than the standard midi solutions box that I was familiar with

I thought we were all talking about the same box, the one Toano linked to, which you can use regardless of whether you're trying to send a CC or sysex. I don't know what the "standard" box you were thinking of is, but yes, this is the box you would use to add pedal control.

 

(although it's a pain in the ass to have to carry another box).

Don't be afraid of velcro. ;-)

 

if you read under the "Expression (controller number 11)" it states that "The volume of individual keyboard parts cannot be controlled independantly" so I'm a little confused.. with organ we're talking "expression" rather than "volume" so I'm not sure which of these two contradictory statements applies here.

Organ can also be controlled by volume. And it looks like the volume of any part can be controlled via sysex. Part volume should be equally controllable regardless of whether that part has an organ assigned to it, or some other sound.

 

But also, your quote there is incomplete, it is described as being the case "If received on the Control Channel while MIDI IN Mode 2 is in effect." So you would not want to send Expression to the channel you have defined as the Control Channel. But it might work if you sent it to the channel you defined as Upper Part (assuming that's where you have assigned organ). That would be worth trying.

 

Between that and the System Exclusive volume method, I would expect you will be able to find a way to do what you're trying to do.

 

[Josh Paxton]

So to make it work like I would want it to, all I'd need is a MIDI Solutions Pedal Controller for expression/volume, and MIDI Solutions Footswitch Controller for rotary speed, and a MIDI Solutions Merger box to let me plug them both into one input. So about $400 worth of hardware, in the form of three separate clunky little boxes and a small mess of cabling, to complete a $1000 keyboard. Hmmm.

 

In the immortal words of Lando Calrissian, "This deal's gettin' worse all the time."

 

Edited to add: I was wrong about the merge box. Both of the other boxes have MIDI inputs with merge capability. So two boxes and $300. Still not a thrilling prospect, but not as bad as I thought.

[AnotherScott]

I have deleted most of my response because I see you've realized that the merger isn't needed.

 

So I'll just leave this part. Based on Sweetwater prices, okay, it's still $250 worth of add-ons to make it do what most organ players would want a splittable/layerable keyboard to be able to do. But look at it this way... if the VR-09 included those functions and had a retail price of $1249, it would still be a pretty good deal.

[Craig MacDonald]

The midi solutions pedal controller is $149 so were does this $3-400 come from.. that's crazy talk!!! If I understand this correctly you simply plug your expression pedal into the pedal controller (assuming it's programed correctly) and you take the midi out to the VR-09 and you're done.

 

BTW, this is ONLY a problem if you want separate control of the expression pedal over the organ when you're splitting and layering.. some people don't care about that, some might prefer it to work in such a way that the expression pedal controls the volume of both sounds..

 

Also remember that you have independent control over the volumes of the organ/piano/synth via dedicated controls on the control panel. I think this is a problem (although it's not a showstopper for me) but many people will not give a shit about this.. Let's not make this a bigger deal than it is.. and it may well be fixed in an update the comes out tomorrow.. who knows.

[AnotherScott]

The midi solutions pedal controller is $149 so were does this $3-400 come from.. that's crazy talk!!! If I understand this correctly you simply plug your expression pedal into the pedal controller (assuming it's programed correctly) and you take the midi out to the VR-09 and you're done.

We're talking about the combined cost of two things that have been discussed in this thread: The MIDI Solutions Pedal Controller to solve your expression/voume pedal issue; and the MIDI Solutions Footswitch Controller discussed earlier so that you can have a dedicated footswitch for rotary speed toggle while leaving the standard pedal assigned to sustain, since the behavior of the standard footswitch cannot be altered for different parts or on a registration-by-registration basis. But as you say, not everyone will need an organ-specific volume pedal, and likewise, not everyone will need a footswitch for rotary control. But for many organ players who are used to these things, both boxes would be needed to achieve the desired functionality.

[Josh Paxton]

The midi solutions pedal controller is $149 so were does this $3-400 come from.. that's crazy talk!!!

 

$149 for the pedal controller, and another $149 for the footswitch controller. To get the kind of flexibility I want, I would need both. Originally I erroneously added in another $80 for a merger, which it turns out wouldn't be needed. Apparently Sweetwater sells them cheaper than the MIDI Solutions site, so as Scott pointed out, it would be about $250, which isn't all that bad.

 

Still, I'm starting to think my needs might be better served by an MX61, which has comparable sounds in every area except organ. But unlike the VR, it lets you pan different parts to different sides, thus allowing the use of a Ventilator, which I already have. And it lets you save the volume and sustain pedal assignments as part of each preset.

 

Naturally I'm not suddenly knocking the VR or anyone who uses one. It's just turning out not to be the best available solution for my particular situation. I'd prefer to go with something I know will work, rather than rely on fiddly band-aid solutions that should probably work in theory, or wait for software updates that may or may not ever come.

 

Edited to add: Ninja'd by Scott yet again!

[Craig MacDonald]

Sorry I don't understand why you need the foot switch controller to solve this problem..a regular expression pedal plugs into the pedal controller correct?

 

What additional function do you get from this footswitch controller..

 

sorry the question question answered.. didn't see the other post about the footswitch controller.. personally I don't see the need for that.. my point was that it's only $149 plus a midi cable to fix THIS problem with the expression pedal, and I think that's correct.

[Craig MacDonald]

BTW this is a whole lot of effort to fix two problems that could EASILY be fixed with a couple of minor OS changes..

 

1. Store controller (damper/expression) parameters with registrations

2. Allow expression pedal to work separately on different parts of split/layers (same all/upper/lower functionality as the damper pedal would be sufficient)

 

And these may well be solved in an OS update.. (I still naively hope they will)

[brenner13]

Much easier for the masses (myself included) to understand with a hopeful Roland OS update.

[To B3]

C'mon Roland. It's not so hard.

[Jazzmammal]

Riiight. Check out the now basically dead Roland Clan Sonic Cell forum. The SC does a lot of cool stuff but has a couple of absolute roll your eyes Duh things in it that has everybody going "What were they thinking?" There was never an OS update and now it's discontinued. Only $800 new, I paid $400 for mine two years ago, it's a good sound module for that price but regarding some of the other heavily advertised functions not so much.

 

Another reason why I buy everything used so I know exactly what I'm getting because I've already read all about it on various forums. The VR looks interesting to me but I won't even consider it for at least a year.

 

Bob

[Adan]

It should be fixable in an OS change, but will Roland pay any attention? If this was a smaller company like Nord or Hammond, I have no doubt they'd fix it. But they also wouldn't have made the mistake in the first place because they would have consulted with real keyboard players who say "of course you want organ swell to work independently of other instrument volumes, duh."

 

Just reading about midi box solutions makes my head hurt. If this keyboard isn't a true grab-n-go, then it's not worth the compromises I'd have to accept with it.

[Sam Mullins]

It should be fixable in an OS change, but will Roland pay any attention? If this was a smaller company like Nord or Hammond, I have no doubt they'd fix it. But they also wouldn't have made the mistake in the first place because they would have consulted with real keyboard players who say "of course you want organ swell to work independently of other instrument volumes, duh."

 

Not trying to defend Roland on this issue....but Nord is similarly guilty of some fairly basic omissions. For example, on the Stage 2 ( which costs 4 x the vr -09), you can't change the pitch bend range or pan voices. Pretty basic stuff that most under 1k synths can do.

[AnotherScott]

Nord is similarly guilty of some fairly basic omissions. For example, on the Stage 2 ( which costs 4 x the vr -09), you can't change the pitch bend range or pan voices.

Nord does sometimes do some quirky things of their own, but you can pan voices on the Stage 2. Take the sound you want to pan, assign it to the auto-pan effect, set the rate to zero (makes it static), and use the amount knob to place the sound where you want. At least that's what the manual says. Also, you can assign instruments to different outputs (and the inability to do that on the Roland is what makes the absence of pan more notable). I would be curious to know, though, why the pitch bend range is limited to a whole step on the NS2. My guess is that it has something to do with how the organ or piano is implemented that would prevent large pitch bends from working. But that's just a guess.

 

 

[stoken6]

you can pan voices on the Stage 2.

 

Scott's beating me to it now!

 

I would be curious to know, though, why the pitch bend range is limited to a whole step on the NS2.

 

I'd like fully-assignable split points on the NS2 (even if it means a bit of menu diving).

 

Cheers, Mike.

[Craig MacDonald]

Nord does sometimes do some quirky things of their own

 

Remember they're the company who had the balls to come out with a bright red line of keyboards!! YES, they can be quirky

 

No company is perfect and especially in the case of the VR-09 where they're trying to reach a target market with a low cost keyboard, there will be some compromises.. not all of which will be appreciated by everyone.. I would have liked to see a leslie mic distance parameter to get that close miced sound.. others might have liked mic angle to get a certain sound.. but in a budget instrument you can't have it all.. and the bottom line is that it sounds great.

 

I'm not sure why Roland left out the ability to store expression and damper pedal in registrations or why they decided not to allow the expression pedal to treat parts different, but some users may not give a crap about this. Roland may have thought that having a panel volume control drawbar for the organ part, might be adequate for most applications.

 

We can pick apart any instrument (as we all know very well), but I don't think it's fair to be too hard on this $999 drawbar organ with excellent pianos, EPs, Clavs, and built in VA synth.

It's still exceptional value, in my opinon! I really like this VR-09, despite being very fussy about my Hammond sound, I actually like the VK engine in this thing, and I've got a pretty ballsy hammond dialed up now. The other voices are great, and I can't wait to play with the iPad synth editor as soon as I pick up the Apple camera kit.

 

I predict that as soon as a couple of other list members get their VR-09's your going to see a bunch more positive comments about it.

[Leh173]

Good post, Craig, it is about the sound after all! If Roland made a module of this I would by it instantly, would solve two of my issues with the Fantom G, the organ and lack of VA, like they should have put out as ARX cards.

 

Still the pedal assignments thing is silly. Their system for doing this in the Fantom G is excellent. Surely a smaller version of this for the VR09 couldn't have been that hard?