Roland V-Combo VR-09

[Josh Paxton]

It also seems that you can't save unique damper and expression pedal settings in registrations. So I can't have my piano registrations saved with the damper working as a damper and save organ registrations with the damper acting as a leslie speed switch. As it stands these seem to be global settings.

 

Thanks for confirming that. Looks like if I do get one of these, I'll have to factor a MIDI Solutions box into the equation.

[Joe Muscara]

Thanks Craig. My concern about the sound isn't the leslie, it's the top drawbars. I had a VK7 for some years, I never warmed to it but I couldn't afford a CX-3, Hammond-Suzuki has never had a presence here, and the Electro hadn't hit the shelves, so I put up with it. I thought the bottom drawbars are fine, the top drawbars however sounded thin. I'm playing mostly funk, alot of 800000006 and 86000000008, and it didn't really cut it, so that worries me. I guess they'll start showing up in retail stores here shortly, but I'd be interested in your impressions in the meantime. The rest of it sounds very promising.

No wonder you found the top drawbars shrill.

[Craig MacDonald]

Thanks Craig. My concern about the sound isn't the leslie, it's the top drawbars. I had a VK7 for some years, I never warmed to it but I couldn't afford a CX-3, Hammond-Suzuki has never had a presence here, and the Electro hadn't hit the shelves, so I put up with it. I thought the bottom drawbars are fine, the top drawbars however sounded thin. I'm playing mostly funk, alot of 800000006 and 86000000008, and it didn't really cut it, so that worries me. I guess they'll start showing up in retail stores here shortly, but I'd be interested in your impressions in the meantime. The rest of it sounds very promising.

No wonder you found the top drawbars shrill.

 

Niacin, as Joe points out.. your shrillness may be a result of you having 2 higher drawbars than the rest of us...

 

Seriously, with respect to the shrillness.. the VR-09 has several ways to control this.. upper and lower gain, a tone control, two different leslie types (one emphasizing the low to mids) and of course the drawbars themselves.. I don't find the VR-09 to be too shrill, and yet it does scream in the upper octave. To me this is always a balance and it's something that was typical of the Korg CX3.. it didn't scream in the upper octave it skrieked..!! Hence they came out with the Version 2, and all of us CX3 owners still ended up buying tube preamps. I don't see the need for this with the VR-09. Between the internal leslie sim and the tone/gain controls, you can create a very mellow sound, or a very bright sound, and store both as registrations. Being a classic rock guy, I haven't explored the jazz organ yet so I can't say what the difference is between the jazz and the rock organs.. but there may the Jazz organ may be quite a bit mellower (or not) we'll see.

 

So I don't think you need to worry about shrillness on the VR-09.

[Craig MacDonald]

It also seems that you can't save unique damper and expression pedal settings in registrations. So I can't have my piano registrations saved with the damper working as a damper and save organ registrations with the damper acting as a leslie speed switch. As it stands these seem to be global settings.

 

Thanks for confirming that. Looks like if I do get one of these, I'll have to factor a MIDI Solutions box into the equation.

FKS, can you elaborate on how you plan to use this MIDI solutins box to solve this issue..? I am really liking the VR-09, but I really want to be able to separate the expression pedal from one split/layer to another could be a major problem for me. I often layer piano and organ or have a piano organ split, and I want the piano to have a constant volume and I want to be able to layer the organ in and out with the expression pedal. I often play block piano or EP chords with my left hand and organ with my right..

[To B3]

Craig, aren't those leslie specific configs available on the iPad app?

 

Also I'm very curiosus about your impressions/new findings on that split/layer effects and pedal configuration issues, as they are crucial to me too... hope there's a way around it, I'd like my left hand wurly to be unnafected by the exp pedal volume, please

[Craig MacDonald]

Craig, aren't those leslie specific configs available on the iPad app?

 

Also I'm very curiosus about your impressions/new findings on that split/layer effects and pedal configuration issues, as they are crucial to me too... hope there's a way around it, I'd like my left hand wurly to be unnafected by the exp pedal volume, please

ToB3,

 

No those other parameters do not look like they can be accessed using the iPad editor (I have the editor on my iPad but I haven't hooked it up yet because I need to purchase the USB camera adapter). Actually, I don't think there are any parameters that are exclusively editable on the editor... every parameter is available from the keyboard itself.

 

I'm with you ToB3, I think it's extremely important that expression pedal can be set to act differently on the different split/layers. I also think that for this to be effective at playing splits and layers, it needs to allow for these parameters to be saved in a registration.. Some players will want the damper pedal to kick the leslie speed for one registration, and act as a traditional damper in another. Hopefully Roland will figure this out and provide this functionality in a update (and do so quickly).

[To B3]

Hoping for that too! Looks like an easy fix for them that can make a huge difference for a lot of players.

[Craig MacDonald]

Hoping for that too! Looks like an easy fix for them that can make a huge difference for a lot of players.

YES it seems like a simple fix that will provide a LOT of necessary flexibility.. you can have one registration that's your perfect blues organ, with expression pedal working and the damper set to kick the leslie speed, and the next registration can be your rock piano where your damper works as a traditional damper but the expression pedal is off. Next registration can be a split where the damper pedal controls the lower manual piano, and the expression controls only the organ on the upper split.. and so on and so forth... THIS is how a lot of gigging musicians will want to use this.

[Josh Paxton]

FKS, can you elaborate on how you plan to use this MIDI solutins box to solve this issue..? I am really liking the VR-09, but I really want to be able to separate the expression pedal from one split/layer to another could be a major problem for me.

 

Sorry, I was referring to the sustain pedal/Leslie switch issue, not the expression pedal assignment issue. Afraid I don't have a solution for that one.

 

Out of curiosity, how much menu diving is required to go in and change those settings globally? Are we talking closer to, say, 3 keystrokes or 15?

[AnotherScott]

FKS, can you elaborate on how you plan to use this MIDI solutins box to solve this issue..? I am really liking the VR-09, but I really want to be able to separate the expression pedal from one split/layer to another could be a major problem for me.

 

Sorry, I was referring to the sustain pedal/Leslie switch issue, not the expression pedal assignment issue. Afraid I don't have a solution for that one.

If the two halves of a split respond to different MIDI channels, then you should also be able to use a MIDI Solutions Pedal Controller to connect a volume pedal that will affect one half but not the other, by assigning it to adjust volume on only the one MIDI channel.

 

Out of curiosity, how much menu diving is required to go in and change those settings globally? Are we talking closer to, say, 3 keystrokes or 15?

One of the issues I find with any attempt at "live menu diving" is that sometimes it's not even a matter of x number of button presses, but the need to use the scroll wheel to get to a certain menu or value, which is worse than buttons... though I suppose better than having to hit a button 100 times ;-)

[To B3]

But Roland could do that with a simple OS fix too, yes??

[AnotherScott]

But Roland could do that with a simple OS fix too, yes??

They probably could, but if I were a betting man, I would say they probably won't. Roland doesn't exactly have the best track record in this kind of thing.

[To B3]

I'd say they are among the worst on that. If only they had a Mike Martin or Dave Weiser kind of guy around here...

 

But, let's hope that the ease to fix that pedal assignining thing tell us a different story. I certainly hope so...

[niacin]

lol, yeh, but I did write "thin" not "shrill". Shrill I can tame, but if it's weak sauce I'm seeing maybe compression in the effects block but that's about it to get it beefed up, but if you've got it screaming ok I'm pretty hopeful.

 

The expression pedal: if you have a split, the 2 parts are on different channels, yeh? So you set the Midi Solutions (or Anatek) box to send CC#7 or #11 on one of the channels and you're sorted, though you will need to have an external power supply for the midi box because you won't have anything coming in the midi input which also supplies it with power.

 

Thanks Craig. My concern about the sound isn't the leslie, it's the top drawbars. I had a VK7 for some years, I never warmed to it but I couldn't afford a CX-3, Hammond-Suzuki has never had a presence here, and the Electro hadn't hit the shelves, so I put up with it. I thought the bottom drawbars are fine, the top drawbars however sounded thin. I'm playing mostly funk, alot of 800000006 and 86000000008, and it didn't really cut it, so that worries me. I guess they'll start showing up in retail stores here shortly, but I'd be interested in your impressions in the meantime. The rest of it sounds very promising.

No wonder you found the top drawbars shrill.

 

Niacin, as Joe points out.. your shrillness may be a result of you having 2 higher drawbars than the rest of us...

 

Seriously, with respect to the shrillness.. the VR-09 has several ways to control this.. upper and lower gain, a tone control, two different leslie types (one emphasizing the low to mids) and of course the drawbars themselves.. I don't find the VR-09 to be too shrill, and yet it does scream in the upper octave. To me this is always a balance and it's something that was typical of the Korg CX3.. it didn't scream in the upper octave it skrieked..!! Hence they came out with the Version 2, and all of us CX3 owners still ended up buying tube preamps. I don't see the need for this with the VR-09. Between the internal leslie sim and the tone/gain controls, you can create a very mellow sound, or a very bright sound, and store both as registrations. Being a classic rock guy, I haven't explored the jazz organ yet so I can't say what the difference is between the jazz and the rock organs.. but there may the Jazz organ may be quite a bit mellower (or not) we'll see.

 

So I don't think you need to worry about shrillness on the VR-09.

[AnotherScott]

you will need to have an external power supply for the midi box because you won't have anything coming in the midi input which also supplies it with power.

In most cases, you can just run a cable from the MIDI Out of the board into the MIDI In of the box, and it will supply the necessary power.

[Craig MacDonald]

I have provided feedback to Roland Canada on this, and the rep has told me that it's going straight back to the engineers.. so I am hopeful that they will listen to this feeback. Worst case, and at a minimium the expression pedal needs the same parameters as the damper pedal (all/upper/lower) in global mode.. You could easily work with this.. Ideally damper/expression settings should be stored with the registration.

 

I am not really sure if the external midi box will solve this issue.. The VR-09 has limited midi parameters, basically transmit channels and one of 3 input modes (one for an external keyboard, and two for accessing the GM2 sound generator).. there are basically no other parameters.. Unless I'm missing something you have little control over what is sent or what can be turned off or filtered out or ignored.. However, I'm going to keep poking around on this.

 

I am reasonably optimistic that something will be done about this.. it's seems to me that it's a minor SW change that could provide important functionality.. why would they not listen and do this (go ahead tell me I'm dreaming).. ;-)

[To B3]

If they fix that pedal assigning thing it would be great... As long as we're dreaming of Roland listening to us and doing things (fingers crossed), they could make effects independently selectable to the lower side of the split too, huh? I know that takes more than a little SW change like the pedal assigning thing, but that (and the possibility to assign effect control to the exp pedal) would make an even bigger no-brainer... I know, 999 bucks keyboard, but...

[AnotherScott]

I have provided feedback to Roland Canada on this, and the rep has told me that it's going straight back to the engineers.. so I am hopeful that they will listen to this feeback.

If you could pass one other thing along, the ability to store registrations where the two split or layered sounds could be hard-panned to one side or the other would address another big issue some of us have with it. That would provide another solution to your problem, too. If you wanted organ to have a volume pedal but your second sound not to respond to it, if the organ were panned to one side, you could put a guitar-style volume pedal on that output. So many split/layer issues can be addressed by just being able to externally access the two sounds separately. (Even if the trade-off had to be that the sounds had to have their effect disabled when doing this.)

 

I am not really sure if the external midi box will solve this issue.. The VR-09 has limited midi parameters, basically transmit channels and one of 3 input modes (one for an external keyboard, and two for accessing the GM2 sound generator).. there are basically no other parameters.. Unless I'm missing something you have little control over what is sent or what can be turned off or filtered out or ignored.. However, I'm going to keep poking around on this.

Yeah, it's a little odd and vague. The description for Mode 2 says "Channels 5 through 10 and channels 12, 14, and 15 will be sent to the SMF playback sound generator (GM2/GS sound generator); the other channels will be sent to the keyboard sound generator." So the question is, exactly where are each of the other channels routed? If they are routed to different places (say, 1 to Upper keyboard and 2 to Lower keyboard), then once you determine which channel is associated with the sound you want to place the expression pedal on, the MIDI Solutions box should work.

 

On another topic, I am curious about something that maybe you can answer. I saw in the manual that a registration can store MIDI Program Change to call up a sound on an external device. What is not clear to me is what channel(s) that MIDI Program Change is sent out on. I assume it is just sent on (and only on) the channel you specify as "TxMIDI Channel Control" in that registration, can you confirm that?

 

[Craig MacDonald]

AnotherScott..

 

I provided the feedback about hard panning sounds to the Roland Rep a month ago when he demo'd the VR-09... and I told him how important it was for us to be able to treat organ and other sounds differently..

 

As far as the TxMIDI Channel Control... I'm not sure what it is, but if I had to guess.. based on the fact that there is a TX channel for upper/lower/pedal/drum, I would guess that "control' is for control of the looper or maybe syncing to an external synth, start stop a sequencer, or something like that, although it could be program changes as you suggest.. or maybe both.. I expect it's just a separate channel for non-note information.. Maybe if I have a closer look at the midi spec it will start to make some sense..

[Craig MacDonald]

AnotherScott,

 

I just checked the Midi implementation document and it seems that the TXMIDI Channel is for transmission of expression pedal and PC that are stored in registrations.

 

SO, it looks like you can have expression and program changes sent on a separate channel.. If this is correct then perhaps I can fix my expression pedal issue without a midi control box and just set the TxMidi channel to send expression to the channel the organ is on, and route a midi cable from the midi out to the midi in..?

 

 

[To B3]

Or.... Roland could just fix the OS

 

Ok, I stop now.

[Craig MacDonald]

Someone on another forum asked me whether you the VR-09 had stop/chorale/tremolo settings or just slow/fast, and I thought I would mention this here as well. The VR-09 only seems to have two leslie switch settings slow/fast, however you can dial the slow speed of the rotor and the horn down to zero, and the leslie is then "stopped" so you effectively have a stop/tremolo setting option. Furthermore, I tried setting the rotor fast speed to zero and leaving the horn spinning chorale/tremelo, and this works to simulate that "memphis" sound where the rotor motor is unplugged. As you would expect these rotary settings are stored by registration so you can have a jazz organ with stop/tremolo, a standard rock organ with regular chorale/tremolo, and you can have a "memphis" organ all stored in different registrations.

[LX88]

I hope this is not one of those scenarios where the leslie stops somewhere out of phase.

 

I always prefer a bypass setting and use chorus vibrato if I have to play in mono, rather than using chorale in mono that was intended for stereo.

 

I am still curious if the VR 09 has good chorus vibrato,or if they have given us a compromise in that department.

[Craig MacDonald]

Lx88, I think the C/V is the same VK C/V that you've heard before, I don't think there are any compromises in this area.. And from my perspective it sounds good. When the Leslie stops it seems to stop facing forward, and I don't hear any phasing issues.

 

You're really going to have to find a good demo or listen to it yourself to be absolutely sure.

[AnotherScott]

I hope this is not one of those scenarios where the leslie stops somewhere out of phase.

I'm not sure how that would be possible. Out of phase with what? Of course a real Leslie speaker can "brake" at any point in its travel, and so the sound can differ, but it's never "out of phase."

 

(edit... well, I guess there could be an issue between the horn and woofer near the crossover point... but people have used leslie brake forever without worrying about this kind of thing...)

[garnermike]

Strange! The VR-760 and VR-700 had decel, mic angle and distance, and treble/rotor balance adjustability.

[Craig MacDonald]

Strange! The VR-760 and VR-700 had decel, mic angle and distance, and treble/rotor balance adjustability.

I guess this is one of the area of compromises.. at least for now. There is nothing stopping them from adding these parameters later in later releases.

[LX88]

A lot of sims that stop in random positions sound out of phase to me.Technically that may or may not be happening but that is what it sounds like.

[Adan]

you can't control the volume of one part independantly from the other using the expression pedal.

 

That's what I thought I gleaned from reading the manual. Major blunder, that. It boggles the mind how this could have passed muster in the design review.

[niacin]

AnotherScott,

 

I just checked the Midi implementation document and it seems that the TXMIDI Channel is for transmission of expression pedal and PC that are stored in registrations.

 

SO, it looks like you can have expression and program changes sent on a separate channel.. If this is correct then perhaps I can fix my expression pedal issue without a midi control box and just set the TxMidi channel to send expression to the channel the organ is on, and route a midi cable from the midi out to the midi in..?

 

 

If the Midi Solutions unit is powered by the midi out from the VR-09, you're also getting note on messages sent out? So you're sending a note on message direct to the intenal sound engine AND out the midi out, via the Midi Soultions pedal unit, and back in to the VR-09, which means the note will double trigger, no?