Roland takes another step... backwards

[AnotherScott]

I'm am curious why Roland is being singled out here.

 

+1

Has anyone else practically eliminated customer phone support? That's what prompted the thread...

[Song80s]

Yamaha

 

 

I think most of us know Yamaha is a very large corp with diverse products, motorcycles(recreation), golf clubs, resort property, audio hi fi components, conferencing systems, semiconductors, etc.

 

So financially, they are not a true apples to apples compare. Yamaha is also 4x larger than Roland in sales.

 

Anyway, both co's took a huge extraordinary one time hit with income taxes in 2012. I would take that event out of their Sales/income operating results.

 

Yamaha made $86.1 million in 2012. Roland made $1.6 million.

(EBT, EXCLUDING UNUSUAL ITEMS).

 

Roland still 'lost ' $59 million in cash flow in 2012. They have $177 million left .

I think you can calculate what will happen in 2-3 years if Roland does not solve their loss/operational problems.

 

In comparison for cash, Yamaha lost $30 million. They have $674 million left, which is a good cushion to ride out and solve the challenges in their product areas.

 

[RABid]

It's not just music manufacturers. Most Japanese companies with a manufacturing focus in entertainment are suffering. Sony's been going through really tough times. Companies like this always take a hit during a recession. In addition the Chinese manufacturers that are starting to label their own products are taking a bigger cut every year. The best they can do is ride it out and hope to survive to the next boom cycle.

[Song80s]

It's not just music manufacturers. Most Japanese companies with a manufacturing focus in entertainment are suffering. Sony's been going through really tough times. Companies like this always take a hit during a recession. In addition the Chinese manufacturers that are starting to label their own products are taking a bigger cut every year. The best they can do is ride it out and hope to survive to the next boom cycle.

 

this is true, however some manufacturers are better prepared than others.

 

I worked for Sony for 10 years. Their issues are not simply recession related.

They lost market share to competitors.

 

It would be a poor management decision to simply ' wait for the next economic boom '. Sort of like having a cold, ignoring it, worsens to pneumonia, then permanent bronchitis, etc.

 

Business dynamics can and will change quickly and greatly. Many companies and especially big cos have great difficulty adapting quickly to changing dynamics. Letting several years go by while this takes place is a problem for management.

[RABid]

...

I worked for Sony for 10 years. Their issues are not simply recession related.

They lost market share to competitors.

 

...

 

Which is why I mentioned Chinese companies taking a bigger cut of the market. Of course for Sony, the Korean companies also took a lot of their business.

[HammondDave]

This is a huge economic and political issue... I went boot shopping for my wife at Macys. They had about 50 different styles of boots from different manufacturers. Most from famous fashion brands... And they all had "Made in China" stamped on the inside.

 

Soon all our keyboards will be made there.....

[Song80s]

...

I worked for Sony for 10 years. Their issues are not simply recession related.

They lost market share to competitors.

 

...

 

Which is why I mentioned Chinese companies taking a bigger cut of the market. Of course for Sony, the Korean companies also took a lot of their business.

 

I hear you. Millions of US jobs have been lost to ' globilization '. The seeds were planted/doors were opened to this back in the 80's via ' trade agreements'. It really is an outrage to everyday Americans if we look at the history behind this.

Sorry to get political

[dta3923]

I owned a Roland A90 for several years. It was a stellar keyboard. I only sold it to fund my current main controller: a Yamaha S90ES (another equally killer keyboard).

 

[SteveCoscia]

(IMHO) Among global and domestic competitors, and regardless of where a product is manufactured, the principle rule for product success is: "the best idea wins." And you don't even have to first. For example, the Apple IPOD was late to the game (mass storage mp3 players existed more than a year prior to Apple's release), but the IPOD dominated market share almost immediately because of the innovative design, user interface, white color, aggressive marketing and the iTunes online store. It was a better idea.

 

Most recently, it seems like Casio has been carving out their piece of the pro keyboard market with innovative ideas and this includes product affordability. Price is a factor and during the last few years of economic uncertainty this has played to Casio's favor.

 

The pro keyboard market is ripe for the next quantum leap of affordable and innovative ideas.

[JeffLearman]

I'd say Ensoniq handled more technical issues than any of its counterparts due to early design flaws and quality issues. That being said, we also worked diligently to serve customers even during the 1989 VFX factory recall. The result was that most customers stuck with us because they sensed that we cared.

I wish we could have stuck with you even longer!

 

My MR76 is still my main keyboard, with an Electro above. They make great pair, each being strong where the other is weak. I'm having a hard time finding a board I like as much to replace it (that's also considerably lighter and no bigger, without busting the bank). I keep putting it off because the MR76 still works, albeit with a couple dodgy keys. Money well spent, about $1700 back in 1997, IIRC.

[Franz Schiller]

To me, Ensoniq was a giant synth tragedy.

 

Absolutely genius products and innovations. Juxtaposed with shocking unreliability.

 

My VFX-SD is one of my fave synths ever. Sounds so unique, and cool, and interesting. The sequencer invites you to experiment. The sound engine is logical, and inspiring and flexible, and transwaves are the best thing going. However, it has broken on me numerous times, and every time I play it, another key stops working.

 

I had an MR61 for a long time. For sequencing, it had one of the most interesting interfaces ever, and the workflow was brilliantly layed out...in concept. Unfortunately, it was about 1 generation under developed. It COULD have become absolutely amazing with a bit more horsepower, and a bit more software development.

 

The inability to really edit sounds from the board was terribly stifling, and serves as an example why NOT to do that. How am I supposed to find an old computer that will run old software?

 

Again, an awful shame considering that the MR61 sounds fat and rich and beautiful.

 

 

[jerrythek]

You could get an MR-Rack to retain those sounds in a much smaller package. Yes, the ideas were brilliant but the product was never fully developed as it was even originally envisioned. Sad.

[allan_evett]

.....Most recently, it seems like Casio has been carving out their piece of the pro keyboard market with innovative ideas and this includes product affordability. Price is a factor and during the last few years of economic uncertainty this has played to Casio's favor.

 

The pro keyboard market is ripe for the next quantum leap of affordable and innovative ideas.

 

Yeah, Casio had pulled some interesting things out of their hat over the past couple years. The XW-P1 that I use on a church gig continues to surprise me with its smorgasbord. Definitely a 'Don't know where that sound come from, but it works great' experience, time and again. Some of the sound combinations - both factory and self programmed - just don't sound like anything else.

[Mike Martin]

.....Most recently, it seems like Casio has been carving out their piece of the pro keyboard market with innovative ideas and this includes product affordability. Price is a factor and during the last few years of economic uncertainty this has played to Casio's favor.

 

The pro keyboard market is ripe for the next quantum leap of affordable and innovative ideas.

 

Yeah, Casio had pulled some interesting things out of their hat over the past couple years. The XW-P1 that I use on a church gig continues to surprise me with its smorgasbord. Definitely a 'Don't know where that sound come from, but it works great' experience, time and again. Some of the sound combinations - both factory and self programmed - just don't sound like anything else.

 

Thanks guys, we sincerely appreciate the kind words. The engineers at Casio have done some great work and the XW-P1 is just one of those products that continues to surprise me all the time.

[HSS]

I agree about Ensoniq products being top notch for their time. I bought a MR76 in 1997 which I finally sold about a year ago.

 

IMHO the MR's APs, synths, and strings were very good, even by today's standards. The onboard drum machine was excellent, the interface was intuitive, and the sequencer was very easy to use. Even though the M76 was a heavy beast, which I stopped gigging with in 2001-2002, I now have some regrets about selling it last year.

[SteveCoscia]

To me, Ensoniq was a giant synth tragedy.

 

My VFX-SD is one of my fave synths ever. However, it has broken on me numerous times, and every time I play it, another key stops working.

The tragedy is multi-faceted - lots of reasons.

 

Regarding the VFX-SD, the primary keyboard problem was intermittent continuity across a MOLEX connector in the Polypressure keybed. Most were fixed by hard-wiring the connector pins. BTW - The VFX and some of the EPS Samplers had a similar MOLEX problem.

 

If any of you guys and gals need spare ENSONIQ parts, try this website: http://thesoniq.com/

 

The guy at THESONIQ was our bench tech and he is real good. He still has a few spare parts.

 

I still have some ENSONIQ schematics (not all, just some) if anyone needs them.

[Jazzmammal]

Since there are several real industry pros in this thread I hesitate to make blanket statements but I think a large part of the problem is live music itself. I don't have anything other than my own observations here in LA but it seems to me that you don't need expensive keyboards when you're DJ'ing a hip hop/euro dance party.

 

Back in 1972 or so my father loaned me $1,700 to buy a used B3. Care to guess what that is in today's money? At the height of my touring career up to about 1982 I had the B3, a Leslie, a Rhodes and an Arp. Plus a 3 year old nice van to carry it all. Carry that forward to today's money. I was making enough money to pay for all that plus a van payment and insurance traveling all over the US with a Vegas style show group. Nobody's doing that now. Those gigs demanded top level pro gear. Now in Vegas even in the nice lounges everybody's playing tracks with a few live players thrown in. Now, don't jump on me guys I'm sure there's exceptions but generally that's the scene today. Anybody here who lives in Vegas please correct me because I really hope I'm wrong but I don't think so. I was there for a business seminar last May and before I left I Googled some live music jazz or blues clubs in Vegas and found nothing but a place called the Cellar Lounge. I drove over there and there's a good guitar blues trio playing and I talked to the guys about gigs in Vegas and was told unless you're one of the few playing the Strip there's squat happening there.

 

Is live music dead? No, not yet but I'll bet the overall market for the type of gigs that requires high level keyboards has shrunk 50-75%. Most of what I've done in the last 10-15 years has been duo and trio stuff which is why I bought a used Korg Pa1xPro arranger to handle backing tracks. Since I'm old school and I do get some full band gigs I also have a PC3.

 

All this plus the general economy translates into much less demand for pro stage equipment. The live gig scene has been moving in the hip hop DJ direction for years and it's only getting bigger. No big workstations there. It's all guys using small controllers playing Abelton Live. No money there for the Yamaha's or Roland's of the world. The market gets down to the point that a company like Roland can't order the number of proprietary chips they need for new product at a good price any more. It takes an order for millions of them to be able to produce chips at a good price. If all you need are, I don't know, 100,000 chips maybe, the price goes up to where it's not feasible any more.

 

This is the same thing the car industry went through. The profit is in big, heavy pickups and luxury cars. Not so much in little econoboxes. It takes the Asians with $20/day labor costs and no bene's or whatever it is to produce a small car at a profit. Japan has been priced out of that market for years just not as early as us.

 

Bob

[Jaime Chimuelo]

I bought an expensive German built Solaris synth, love it, but once I opened it up I saw nothing but Made in China mainboard and daughter card, so many things are cheap in China and the myth of low qaulity is diminishing more every year, especially the electronics end.

What we will see is Chinese manufacturing pricing out Japanese and Korean manufacturing which just makes everyone more competitive.

 

I welcome it. If it wasn't for AMD, we'd all be suffereing. I remember paying 1000 USD for a Coppermine 1GHz CPU in 1999, I sure don't miss those days.

[Jason Stanfield]

This is a huge economic and political issue... I went boot shopping for my wife at Macys. They had about 50 different styles of boots from different manufacturers. Most from famous fashion brands... And they all had "Made in China" stamped on the inside.

 

Soon all our keyboards will be made there.....

I hope not.

 

Too many manufacturers get pressured into offering cheaper and cheaper products by big box retailers with huge purchasing power, and I've seen firsthand the quality of guitars and drums deliberately scuttled in favor of aggressively lower price points.

 

It's not about making quality products any more; it's about chasing that quarter-million-dollar purchase order by offering disposable guitar packs for $49 wholesale.

[allan_evett]

This is a huge economic and political issue... I went boot shopping for my wife at Macys. They had about 50 different styles of boots from different manufacturers. Most from famous fashion brands... And they all had "Made in China" stamped on the inside.

 

Soon all our keyboards will be made there.....

I hope not.

 

Too many manufacturers get pressured into offering cheaper and cheaper products by big box retailers with huge purchasing power, and I've seen firsthand the quality of guitars and drums deliberately scuttled in favor of aggressively lower price points.

 

It's not about making quality products any more; it's about chasing that quarter-million-dollar purchase order by offering disposable guitar packs for $49 wholesale.

 

I'd read once that the 'race to the bottom' will end with a whimper. But it will more likely be the anguished cry of a keyboardist watching his generic, big box brand piano implode.

[burningbusch]

From Roland's "structural reform" document.

 

"From the end of the fiscal year ending March 31, 2013, the Company will continue to transfer production operations to its production bases in China and Southeast Asia, raising the percentage of overseas production from the current of roughly 70% to 90%, as an effort to enhance its competitiveness in the market. In conjunction with this effort, it will consolidate domestic production in Japan, as well as restructure digital piano production in Europe and the United States by transferring the management to a contract manufacturer in Indonesia so as to increase efficiency."

 

Busch.

[The Real MC]

I haven't bought a Roland product in twenty years

[Ekewaka]

I haven't bought a Roland product in twenty years

I wanted to buy the Jupiter expecting it to be an analog or at least a VA synth, not a workstation...

[Michael Wright]

I haven't bought a Roland product in twenty years

At least that for me too!

[allan_evett]

I haven't bought a Roland product in twenty years

I wanted to buy the Jupiter expecting it to be an analog or at least a VA synth, not a workstation...

 

KHX - Correct me if I've misunderstood the instrument to which you're referring. The new Jupiter keyboards aren't workstations. However, some players here do like the SuperNatural modeling technology upon which the instruments are based.

For VA, I like the engines in the Kronos, Stage 2, and Kurz PC3. Roland also produced a monster, hybrid instrument called the V-Synth; definitely worth checking out examples on YouTube.

RA is a bit too specialized for what I do presently; so it's not cost effective. But, it would be fun to see Roland introduce a current analog synth. Also hoping that the 'King Korg' rumors are true

 

And... Welcome to the forum !

[Ekewaka]

For me a Jupiter was always an analog synth with lots of direct tweaking - I owned a Jupiter-6, maybe one of the first set manufactured.

 

The new Jupiters are not that. I'm not that fond of spending my days inside an LCD display.

[allan_evett]

The Jupiter 6 was a great synth. I recall playing a new one back in 1983; was blown-away by it. I had an OB-Xa at the time, so the Jupiter wasn't on my radar (nor in my budget). I did pick up a used Super Jupiter, and programmer (MKS-80 / MPG-80) in 1989. That was an awesome rack of RA goodness.

 

I have a Jupiter-50, and it's extremely good for what it does. But I would've given it a new, and different name....

[Ekewaka]

I actually looked at a Jupiter-50 for a totally different purpose, as something similar to Nords, real stage keyboard. But it's very pricey. And has lots of features I won't ever need. Plus wrong name, they should have reserved Jupiters for any kind of keyboard with a direct manipulation of values via sliders and knobs. It was indeed a bad marketing decision. Bad rep from old Jupiter fans and confusion for the rest.

 

If they drop down in place below $1400 I might reconsider.

[AnotherScott]

I actually looked at a Jupiter-50 for a totally different purpose, as something similar to Nords, real stage keyboard. But it's very pricey.

Not compared to Nords. ;-)

[Ekewaka]

I actually looked at a Jupiter-50 for a totally different purpose, as something similar to Nords, real stage keyboard. But it's very pricey.

Not compared to Nords. ;-)

 

Well, Electro 3s have very reasonable pricing just now.