Bassist bass lines vs. organist/pianist bass lines

[Josh Paxton]

So I've embarked on a mission to get serious about jazz organ, including kicking left-hand bass. I would describe my current left-hand bass skills as "passably decent," but I want to get to the next level (and preferably one or two beyond that).

 

Toward that end, I have a question for those who have been down this road already: to what degree do you recommend checking out bass players versus organists and pianists who walk bass lines?

 

My tentative plan is to check out roughly equal amounts of both, since they each have something different to offer. But if anyone has any particular advice in this area, I'm all ears.

[b3halt]

I recommend transcribing bass lines from Jimmy Smith, Jack McDuff, John Patton, Groove Holmes, Don Paterson, Reuben Wilson, Dr. Lonnie Smith, and Leon Spencer Jr. When I started learning the left hand bass, I transcribed a lot from Tony Monaco's DVD. It was hard because he plays a lot of grace notes, and it was hard to imitate his left hand bass because of it. (By the way, Joey's left hand is very complex as well...)

 

Once you get used to it, you might want to listen to Ray Brown, Andrew Simpkins, Bob Cranshaw, Ron Carter, and other bass players. I did this to make my left hand bass sound more like real bass playing. So now, I prefer not to have a bass player when I play organ.

 

Check this out too. http://organfreak.tripod.com/bass.html

This site helps.

[mate stubb]

Depends on the bass player.

[tompass]

One way to begin exploring playing of LH bass lines is to start playing root and 4th or root and 5th in "two" feeling. Then begin to add passing tones to connect. Time must be very accurate and very little if any crossing over of fingers is required. Fold back on organ also important.

[Sven Golly]

kicking left-hand bass.

 

"Kicking" and "left-hand" bass are two entirely different things.

 

(unless of course you're related to Jerry Lee Lewis:

 

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-G37gpsdCa_c/Tjs_QI0aq3I/AAAAAAAAB3A/pO458QwsiHk/s1600/Jerry+Lee+with+foot+up+on+piano.jpg

[solpincus]

I would also recommend listening to the solo albums of pianist Dave Mc kenna. A lot of us were deeply influenced by his left handed bass lines as well as the Classic Jazz Organists (Smith, Mc Duff, Groove, Mc Griff, etc) I know that Larry goldings used Mc Kenna as a model for left handed bass lines. Mc Kenna's approach to pianistic kicking of the bass is a deceptively simple technique that non-musicians would not notice , at least at first. What he does is, on most tempos, play both the bass line, the melody or his immaculate approach to be-bop 8ths, AND somehow manage to get the inner voice line all in seemingly the same time. His use of grace notes is ingenious in the bass lines. It takes a similiar amount of objective study to understand & implement this technique as it would to master Stride or 'Swing Bass' simply because all of these components are present in Mc Kenna's solo works. Or course, each player has to learn to make his own transition from the Pianistic left hand bass to the Hammond organ approach (with it's attendant fold-back, for instance ) but when originally HEARING IT PLAYED, the discerning or non-discerning listener cannot help but feel a kind of ecstatic rapture when hearing it in conjunction with the melody lines, soloing, & the deft insertion of the needed tri-tones. One also hears simialarities of this feeling in Blue-Grass, Pedal Steel Guitar, & so forth. It's a matter of objective study, & an intuitive FEELING .

[cleomenesII]

Surely you are right, Sven. Kicking means using pedals. This 'kicking left hand bass', especially when referring to a pianist (DM), seems very odd to me - is it a new phrase entering the language, which we will have to accept? (Like the use of 'media' as a singular noun, creeping now even into the BBC).

 

Phil

[Eric Iverson]

A "kicking bass line" is not an uncommon phrase among bass GUITARISTS.... or guitarists! At least in the good old USA....

[Sven Golly]

A "kicking bass line" is not an uncommon phrase among bass GUITARISTS.... or guitarists! At least in the good old USA....

 

Yeah, but you guys are just plain weird...

 

http://www.nme.com/images/gallery/TedNugentScreamDream600Gb090511.jpg

 

(not that I'd ever argue wit'cha... )

 

http://www.marfdrat.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/nugent-with-bow.png

 

[cleomenesII]

Well yes, but there it is (I think) being used as an adjective, just as you might talk about a'kicking party' (in the sense of a good one, rather than one where people get kicked). I had better shut up - or at least delete 'Oxford' from my location.... not for me to tell people how to write/speak!

 

Phil

[16251]

I have a question about left-hand bass. I had to play bass for a quartet gig, which became a trio since the getting a sub was not taken care of. Walking was ok but when we played a funky cantaloupe island, I just couldn't find a bass line which gave me freedom to improvise. What does a player do?

[Jim Alfredson]

Practice. Work on your independence.

[solpincus]

Latin & Afro-cuban bass lines are somewhat similar in their syncopation to bass lines in Rock or funk. The syncopation itself is often based on root & 5th, as has been been noted . It can be written out , but it is really a FEELING type of thing. As noted above, you can practise just the left hand alone (which would be a good idea) before adding the right hand for melody & changes, or 8th note type improv. If you listen to latin & rock base lines, try to isolate the bass line from whatever else is goin on in the TREBLE. Listen to the drummer, though. If neccessary, CLAP the ryhtmatics 1st, identify the notes . It's a matter of LOTS of woodshedding. Many player can't FEEL the thing, though. The ones who learn it all intellectually (in the head, alone) are easy to identify : they sound like they took the night off from their BRIDGE club to 'play'. One good example of synchopated bass lines is Chester Thompson. Also, Jimmy Smith's album THE BOSS features him doing it quite distinctly on the tune THIS GUY'S IN LOVE WITH YOU.

[Jim Alfredson]

It has to become second nature. If you're thinking about it, then more practice is needed. Work on repeating a simple but syncopated bass line with the left hand and then playing a single note in different subdivisions over that with your right until its rhythmically solid.

[Bobadohshe]

Latin & Afro-cuban bass lines are somewhat similar in their syncopation to bass lines in Rock or funk.

 

I have to disagree with this. A tumbao is nothing like a rock bass line.

[Josh Paxton]

Thanks y'all for the input. That's why I love this board! To reply to a few points

 

I recommend transcribing bass lines from

[...]

Check this out too. http://organfreak.tripod.com/bass.html

 

Thanks for the list and the links. There were some names there I wouldn't have thought of.

 

One way to begin exploring playing of LH bass lines is to start playing root and 4th or root and 5th in "two" feeling.

 

That much I'm totally comfortable with. In fact I'm generally comfortable with walking a line while comping and/or soloing over it, at least with tunes I know well. My goal is to get better at the independence (which, as B3-er so aptly put, comes down to practice), and to start playing more musical and interesting lines than the same old 1-3-5-b5-4-zzzzzzz patterns I always unthinkingly fall into.

 

Fold back on organ also important.

 

That I'd be interested in learning more about. That is, I know what it is and where it happens, but does it affect your choice of what to play?

 

"Kicking" and "left-hand" bass are two entirely different things.

 

Surely you are right, Sven. Kicking means using pedals. This 'kicking left hand bass', especially when referring to a pianist (DM), seems very odd to me - is it a new phrase entering the language, which we will have to accept? (Like the use of 'media' as a singular noun, creeping now even into the BBC).

 

Apologies if my terminology has offended. In the circles I've traveled in, "kicking bass" has always been an accepted nonspecific term for using the pedals and/or the left hand. Even the serious jazz organ guys I know use it that way. But I accept that this may be a regional thing, and may not be the best terminology to use in the wider world of internet forums fora. I will henceforth adjust my vocabulary accordingly.

 

I would also recommend listening to the solo albums of pianist Dave Mc kenna.

 

Another name I wouldn't have thought of on my own, but after your description, now I'm curious to check him out. Thanks!

 

A related anecdote to throw out there. Back in grad school I attended a master class by Marcus Roberts, and asked him about his approach to walking a bass line with the left hand while soloing with the right, like he had done on his solo piano recording of "Cherokee." His response was both flippant and informative. He said, "Well first of all you have to learn to walk a bass line." Then he started walking a left-hand bass line for an uptempo blues -- and all by itself, it was bad-ass. Then, while continuing to play the bass line as though it were as effortless as breathing, he elaborated: "And I don't mean 'piano player' bass lines, I mean real bass lines. Listen to players like Ron Carter to learn how to do it for real. Then once you've got that down, just practice until you can do this over top of it" And he proceeded to play a few choruses of the most amazing uptempo walking-bass solo piano swing blues I've ever heard. That has been an inspiration to me ever since.

[Analogaddict]

just practice until you can do this

 

That's about it I guess...

[cleomenesII]

Fora

 

Kicking bass:

 

I didn't mean to be so prescriptive - I will add the phrase to my vocabulary!

[ProfD]

FunkKeyStuff, I hope James Jamerson, Chuck Rainey, Larry Graham, George Porter, Jr., Jaco Pastorius and Verdine White are on your short list of bass players to check out.

[Sven Golly]

"Kicking" and "left-hand" bass are two entirely different things.

Apologies if my terminology has offended.

 

No offense here; I just wanted to take advantage of an opportunity to post a pic of The Killer.

[TrapperJack]

A good bass line is a good bass line. Listen to and look at everything in the right register.

It is the groove that matters most.

Have a look here: http://www.organforum.com/forums/showthread.php?24682-Left-Hand-Bass-Comping-Grooves-and-Soloing

 

[ksoper]

Don't miss Neal Evans.

[I-missRichardTee]

Would you be interested in being specific about this? If so, we can talk about choosing ( from a pool of tunes you might mention here ) a specific tune, and specific notes in a specifc part of that tune. Would be fun.

Study Ron Carter... he made many recordings away from Miles Davis ( which is a bit too advanced ), Mr Carter completely gets it. Ron and also James Jamerson. Just study those two!!!

 

[lightbg]

I guess I've mucked this up totally.........

 

 

You'll notice that the bass has almost all the treble rolled off, simply because I am trying to emulate a Hammond bass sound: not muddy, but fills the band. I started this when keyboards didn't split, and kept it going ever since.

 

When people ask how it's done, I reply that they're the same notes, just a different technique. I've never even thought about proper string bass vs. keyboard bass: Just Play.

 

 

[WesG]

Wow, that's really a unique take on "left-hand bass"!

[Mitch Towne]

You can't go wrong with Tony Monaco's Bass/Comp DVD set. (Scroll down on the page.)

 

http://www.b3monaco.com/video.htm

 

 

[marino]

I guess that much depends on the different physical configuration and the different sound of the two instruments.

 

For jazz walking bass lines, I have achieved a certain proficency, and I like to think that I can lay down a decent double bass-like comping. Only thing, the 'sound' of a piano, or even a sampled bass, is never the same than the same line played by a good bassist.

 

For rock, funk, or latin, there's an additional difficulty: The electric bass can easily play repeated notes. On a keyboard, however, even a couple of repeated notes don't come so natural. I mean, they *can* be played, but to my ear, they never seem to groove like on an electric bass.

 

I also seem to particularly dislike Hammond bass lines; left hand or pedal, and even if played great, I always prefer the noisy attack of a real bass.

 

The moral: Playing keyboard bass is always a fun challenge. But whenever possible, give me a good bass player!

 

 

[I-missRichardTee]

Jimmy Smith Joey D and company, did alright 0_0 edit Ever hear Chester Thompson... you think a bass player would "help him"? check out this Live set from about 1 min 30 sec

. The bass is not as LOUD as you may be used to. but that music is burning.. and few basses could improve on that, my friend.

Left hand bass is an art. Often the string bass sound is most difficult because none sound like or feel like a good string bass player. The most accurate and easiest to acquire is by Roland... they have string basses by John Patitucci that are quite good... better really than average Joe bass player.

You have to ( luck aside ) spend a lot of time searching for the right sounds, and amp combinations. For Acoustic bass on softer more polite gigs: I found my old PC88 ac bass with the G2 Eon 15 WHEN properly set up, sounds pretty darned good. I would rather play that set up with yours truly ( I played some elec bass sessions with Richard Tee on B3 ages ago ! ) on the PC88, in split mode than with the majority of bass players. That's the truth. You have wonderful opportunities to reharmonize and make up ensemble parts on the fly. Much to recommend it, IF you have that bass mojo in your heart.

I also like the Roland ac bass sounds very much... I use a Fantom G6 on top of an acoustic piano with some success. Only thing I miss with a real piano is I can't ever play a tenth with my left thumb above the split point - hitting a keyboard sound ( AP or EP ) - that tenth in left hand obviously creates much fatness, esp when amplified .

[TrapperJack]

I have the Tony Monaco DVD. I have about four of his CDs, too, and I thoroughly admire his playing. But I am disappointed with the Bass/Comp DVD. He spends a lot of time talking "around the point", gives a few examples, the best of which he doesn't explain, and that one he plays with "curious" fingering.

I know we could talk fingering all night long and not agree, but I suggest we can all be more methodical with our fingering of left hand bass than it would appear some (very good) players are. And for people starting out, that is important, isn't it?

How would you instruct your best student in the craft of left hand bass on keys?

[I-missRichardTee]

I have the Tony Monaco DVD. I have about four of his CDs, too, and I thoroughly admire his playing. But I am disappointed with the Bass/Comp DVD. He spends a lot of time talking "around the point", gives a few examples, the best of which he doesn't explain, and that one he plays with "curious" fingering.

I know we could talk fingering all night long and not agree, but I suggest we can all be more methodical with our fingering of left hand bass than it would appear some (very good) players are. And for people starting out, that is important, isn't it?

How would you instruct your best student in the craft of left hand bass on keys?

 

I think I am quite poor with regard to fingering.. But have a high aptitude for bass. So a mixed bag. I play fingerings by the seat of my pants method. I keep meaning to get going with fingering/ scales/ but I always give into more immediate gratification of playing music- rhythms, harmony- melody. In my defense, I play other families of instruments... and just never could deal with that much discipline. Too much to learn about music itself... where to me fingerings play a relatively small part. BUT fingering holds me back in terms of faster playing.

I spent many years listening to bass lines. Jamerson, Ron Carter Ray Brown, Chuck Rainey, Willie Weeks, later Jaco, marcus Miller. a few Latin bad boys, and then the bass lines in Classical music from Bach to Wagner/ Schoenberg earlier music. I guess balance is needed in development, eh! Even fingering and scales ( sorry of I have offended half the cats here ! ) there is so much to learn in music, it is impossible to do it all. So I gave up on technique.

 

If you "guys" want to have some educational fun, let's see if we can pick some tunes, narrow them down to one tune. Then get very specific about good, better , note choices for bass!!

 

I have sympathy for anyone including Tony Monaco to try to teach bass. The best way I can, is the way I am proposing.. Forgive this self talk really I am tempted to delete this.. but i want to make a point so.. I am a natural bass player.. I was playing piano by ear as kid, took up sax, fell in love with it.. found out how much i didn't like loud rock gigs on sax, by happy accident switched to elec bass.. in 2 weeks time. This offer was made to me: A band leader bought me a cheap elec bass and tiny amp, and I was gigging 3 or 4 nights a week, in 2 weeks from time he bought me bass. Just non rock music of that time ( mid sixties ). I was never a Jaco, or a marcus, but I did sessions work in a very short time in NYC scene t till I moved in 1991. . Sorry for that.. I am a natural with bass is my point...not a great teacher- very few are btw. . Anyone who wants to choose a tune with me and discuss note choices, I am up for it. i think it would be profitable.