konaboy Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 I'm a bit disgruntled with modern USB-midi controllers. I find the build quality to be rather poor, the playability is not very satisfying and I've heard many stories about unreliability. But I need to get a keyboard for connecting to the computer and playing around with soft-synths. So I have started thinking about getting an old synth from the 80/90's instead and just using it as a midi-controller. For example I've heard people heaping praise on the keybed of the DX7mk2. Or why not an old D50 or M1? Or a K2000 springs to mind. These old beasts had cases of sheet metal and were built like tanks. I'm guessing the cost would be roughly the same as a new plastic-fantastic controller. So what do you think? A good idea? Which synths should I be on the lookout for? hang out with me at woody piano shack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CEB Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Sure, if all you need are keys and a MIDI jack then yeah. "It doesn't have to be difficult to be cool" - Mitch Towne "A great musician can bring tears to your eyes!!! So can a auto Mechanic." - Stokes Hunt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmooremusic Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 That's what I do - using an older synth as a midi controller. I have a Roland JX-305 that I'm using. I do like it much better than some of the newer controllers in terms of feel. Its kind of a pain sometimes though with it losing midi messages. I'm not sure if its my board, or an earlier Roland thing, but if it were me, I'd stay away from Roland just in case - though someone may chime in differently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leh173 Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 I've used my old DX7, Roland D-70 and JP-8000 as controllers and they're all much more satisfying to play than the plastic MIDI controllers. Currently my Fantom G is my main controller. Even a Fantom X would be OK. Never had any trouble with the Roland stuff. Roland Fantom G6, D-70, JP-8000, Juno-106, JV-1080, Moog Minitaur, Korg Volca Keys, Yamaha DX-7. TG33, Logic Pro, NI plugs, Arturia plugs etc etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Coda Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 So what do you think? A good idea? Which synths should I be on the lookout for? Alongside w/ my 2 modern MIDI controller keyboards (Kurzweil PC361 and Roland/Edirol PCR300) I have only old keyboards connected to MIDI (also DAW MIDI via 8x8 MIDI interface). Rhodes MK80, Yamaha KX76, DX7mkIIFD, Oberheim XK, Yamaha KX5. My DAW is PC and there are 2 MIDI interfaces. I used the Midex-8 (USB) until I ditched and sold Cubase last week. I´m using a very old MusicQuest(Opcode)8portSE with the Earthvegaconnections DirectMusic driver 32Bit. It´s dead on,- promised ! Much better, they just released a 64Bit driver. That´s future proof for me because I own 2 of the 8portSE. The 8portSE have LTP connectors,- ouch ... No prob,- buy a cheap PCI or PCIe LTP card and you´re done. Goodbye PC onboard USB MIDI crap. Find 8portSE for peanuts @ebay, buy the driver and a LTP card and use it w/ old keys,- purfect ! Disabling some USB controller on your DAW machine makes it run smoother anyway. The PC3 and PCR300 give me sliders and knobs. Nonetheless, I use the old and now cheap boxes w/ the old keys,- Jim Cooper Masterfader Pro p.ex. which I buyed for 50 bucks. I´m now after a Peavey PC1600X ... A.C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 I'll be using my XP-50 as a MIDI controller as soon as I can spring for the touch-screen monitor for my rack... A bunch of loud, obnoxious music I USED to make with friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mate stubb Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 DX7 has a great action but they do not transmit all the way to 127 on the velocity. Moe --- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Force Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 So what do you think? A good idea? Which synths should I be on the lookout for? Alongside w/ my 2 modern MIDI controller keyboards (Kurzweil PC361 and Roland/Edirol PCR300) I have only old keyboards connected to MIDI (also DAW MIDI via 8x8 MIDI interface). Rhodes MK80, Yamaha KX76, DX7mkIIFD, Oberheim XK, Yamaha KX5. My DAW is PC and there are 2 MIDI interfaces. I used the Midex-8 (USB) until I ditched and sold Cubase last week. I´m using a very old MusicQuest(Opcode)8portSE with the Earthvegaconnections DirectMusic driver 32Bit. It´s dead on,- promised ! Much better, they just released a 64Bit driver. That´s future proof for me because I own 2 of the 8portSE. The 8portSE have LTP connectors,- ouch ... No prob,- buy a cheap PCI or PCIe LTP card and you´re done. Goodbye PC onboard USB MIDI crap. Find 8portSE for peanuts @ebay, buy the driver and a LTP card and use it w/ old keys,- purfect ! Disabling some USB controller on your DAW machine makes it run smoother anyway. The PC3 and PCR300 give me sliders and knobs. Nonetheless, I use the old and now cheap boxes w/ the old keys,- Jim Cooper Masterfader Pro p.ex. which I buyed for 50 bucks. I´m now after a Peavey PC1600X ... A.C. You ditched and sold Cubase? What are you using now? Steve Force, Durham, North Carolina -------- My Professional Websites Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leh173 Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 DX7 has a great action but they do not transmit all the way to 127 on the velocity. Unless you get them modded Did they fix this with DX7 II? Roland Fantom G6, D-70, JP-8000, Juno-106, JV-1080, Moog Minitaur, Korg Volca Keys, Yamaha DX-7. TG33, Logic Pro, NI plugs, Arturia plugs etc etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zukskywalker Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Yep. Fixed in the DX7 II, and it's a very decent controller with a few goodies. There's the E! card that adds functionality and then there's also the breath controller input. (Got brass?) But speaking of old synths as controller the old Prophecy is also a great controller. Past complaints of it's keyboard "springyness" now translate into great tactile parameter control via aftertouch. Map the ribbon/"log" to other params and you can send some crazy stuff into your software. Not to mention the Prophecy's own internals(especially when clocked), but that's a different story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Coda Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 You ditched and sold Cubase? What are you using now? Presonus Studio One Pro v2.04 and Propellerhead Reason 6. Reaper 4 w/ SWS Extensions by interest. Cantabile Lite. Nuendo/RME hardware (audio card, converter, synchronizer) Creamware/Sonic Core hardware and Scope, actually in a 2nd rackmount PC. Each rackmount PC has a 8portSE 8x8 midi interface connected (outboard MIDI hardware integration) Kurz PC361 controls PSO Pro 2, Edirol PCR300 is for Reason 6,- both using USB2. Want Peavey PC1600X to control Scope mixer volume faders, mute and solo buttons. A.C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zukskywalker Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 BTW, the DX7 II also has TWO volume peddle inputs, sustain pedal intput, footswitch, and midi thru. All mappable of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Coda Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Yep. Fixed in the DX7 II, and it's a very decent controller with a few goodies. There's the E! card that adds functionality and then there's also the breath controller input. (Got brass?) Yamaha never fixed it, same as KX76, KX5 and early KX88 models. Velocity up to ~100. Grey Matter E! cards fixed it for both the DX7 and DX7II. I´m using EES M3 Velocity Transformers for both the DX7mkIIFD and the KX76. These little boxes offer 2 MIDI Outs processed by 5 positive and negative velocity curves, add a MIDI channel split w/ selectable split point and the MIDI Thru port carries the not processed MIDI info, but on a additionally selectable MIDI channel. (Alternately, the Miditemp PMM88E offers that functionality for each MIDI input). I had that Grey Matter E! board in the old DX7 but passed for DX7mkII. The Grey Matter E! for DX7II made the synth behave slow in operation because of it´s featuritis. E! was never a co-processor system,- so all was up to the DX7II internal processor which was at it´s limits. I remember nitemares w/ E! boards under stress conditions while touring because at that time, there were no portable/lightweight power stabilizers and conditioners available and not any at an affordable price. A.C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zukskywalker Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 You're right about the velocity issue on the DX7 II. I had thought it was just a velocity curve issue but that problem was still there. Didn't bug me though since I was just lucky on my E! card experience on the DX7II. I looked at that card as the crazy beginnings of the DAW mindset(then came the M1). Yes it slowed an already slow machine even further but just getting a grip on all the added features was nuts. And you TOURED using hotrodded DX7's? Hats off to you. Seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Coda Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 All mappable of course. Very limited MIDI CC set. No CC #11 Expression ! Manufacturer pre-selection what´s mapable to which controllers: Pedals, switches and the 2 sliders,- for outgoing MIDI. The MIDI receive is a bit different because DX7mkII receives on 2 MIDI channels simultaneously. Doesn´t matter to me, I´m in Dual Mode always, receiving on 1 MIDI channel only. Best config for old Yammi and MIDI transmission is one pedal CC#7, the other CC#4, one switch CC64 sustain and the other CC#65 (?) "soft pedal". One of the sliders keeps CC#6 data entry (you need it for editing) and the other PAN or what else. Especially if working in MIDI Local Off mode,- keep the standard config. because the DX7II wants to see that at it´s MIDI Input then,- or you have to re-program all the internal patches using these controllers. A.C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Coda Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 And you TOURED using hotrodded DX7's? Hats off to you. Seriously. Found a pic from a 1988 tour soundcheck ... http://dl.dropbox.com/u/14473219/Soundcheck%201.JPG Yammi KX88, DX7 w/ E!, pedalboard,- Oberheim Xpander, Korg M1, custom modified Prophet 5 rev3, pedalboard. 3 15HU racks and speakers below riser w/ grill cutouts. I helped debugging E! boards for former german distributor, still have eproms w/ different firmware versions in the house,- but the old DX7 is gone. A.C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zukskywalker Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Wow! And you still have/use the DX7II? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashville.Guru Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 To the OP - I'm one among many who started out looking for the ideal new controller for softsynths. Thanks to the wisdom of this forum (:grin:) and personal experience, I've come to the same conclusion: to get the job done, the keyboard I'm using need not be a textbook "controller". I can totally relate. Coming to your question - it doesn't matter all that much, at least on the software side of things. Great action, build quality, plenty of knobs/sliders/buttons/wheels (which transmit Midi CCs!!), and you're good to go (Surprised the Roland A-90 hasn't been mentioned yet, even if it isn't a 'synth'). But here's a question - why do you need all of this to be in one physical board? That seriously narrows your choices. Why not have great action/build quality in one board, and knobbage/other paraphernalia on a smaller board that sits on top? Best of both worlds, no? BTW, you haven't mentioned whether it's for live/studio... This is really what MIDI was originally about encouraging cooperation between companies that make the world a more creative place." - Dave Smith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CEB Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Just buy a secondary controller surface to supplement the DX7 D50 M1 CZ1 SQ1 ect...... A Korg Nanokontrol starts at $59.99. I want to use one of the manuals of the XK3c to control Arturia Analog Factory plus a control control surface to give me the real parameter control I want. I just cant find one with the features I want yet shallow enough to fit on top of the XK3c. I want to avoid going 3 tier and keep my clonewheel in the rig. But I would think a control surface would be ideal for an old synth to become a make shift controller. "It doesn't have to be difficult to be cool" - Mitch Towne "A great musician can bring tears to your eyes!!! So can a auto Mechanic." - Stokes Hunt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Coda Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Wow! And you still have/use the DX7II? Yes,- DX7mkIIFD, without E! board. It has a original display replacement meanwhile and gets all tact switches and the battery replaced as soon all parts being ordered from Mouser for several pieces of gear arrive here. I replaced the KX88 on the pic w/ a KX76. You see that rig in my avatar which is Rhodes MK80 w/ KX76 ontop and DX7mkIIFD to the right. You don´t see the Oberheim Xpander below the DX7II, but it´s there and there´s also a Roland D550 w/ Musitronic expansions and a M1Rex in a 4HU rack. That was my rig in the mid 90th, but I still have all the instruments. The DX7II is a nice keyboard instrument,- very reliable and it never failed. Same ruled and rules for the KX88 and KX76 as also the MK80 and the modules. With old gear like that, there´s wearout after a quarter of a century, but the fixes are very cheap and when done, there´s no reason not to keep that stuff for years again. Every modern piece of gear I own doesn´t have this build quality and reliability anymore. Nonetheless, there will be an all new rig within this year and even I´ll keep several pieces of the old gear in my studio. It´s all about portability and less cables and there will be one small rack only. A.C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Force Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 And you TOURED using hotrodded DX7's? Hats off to you. Seriously. Found a pic from a 1988 tour soundcheck ... http://dl.dropbox.com/u/14473219/Soundcheck%201.JPG Yammi KX88, DX7 w/ E!, pedalboard,- Oberheim Xpander, Korg M1, custom modified Prophet 5 rev3, pedalboard. 3 15HU racks and speakers below riser w/ grill cutouts. I helped debugging E! boards for former german distributor, still have eproms w/ different firmware versions in the house,- but the old DX7 is gone. A.C. Wow!! Here is Al Coda's pic. http://dl.dropbox.com/u/14473219/Soundcheck%201.JPG Your band, or..?? Steve Force, Durham, North Carolina -------- My Professional Websites Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Coda Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Wow!! Here is Al Coda's pic. How did you get that working ? If I copy a link to a file in my dropbox and paste it here in a post,- for me, the link only works if copied and pasted into my browser again. But,- my avatars work, even I did it the same way. It drives me nuts, because I tried for several times yesterday and when the link was pasted into the post, I couldn´t type anything any more and had to delete my post before I was able to log out. Very weird. Your band, or..?? No, that´s old pics from 80th/90th ... I´m still busy finding and scanning pics from the past 3 decades, found a lot of cool ones and unfortunately miss a lot more, most all done by people I have no contact anymore. It´s all from times working as a freelancer, hired for studio and touring only. Funny,- these were already shrinked rigs, leaving the Rhodes, Clav, Moogs, organ and string machine at home. It´s very hard to get the earlier pics showing the big gig rig incl. everything above and Moog Taurus 1,- supporting Dylan, Baez and Santana outdoor and there must be shots supporting Madonna. I´ve found pics from Albert Hall London w/ DX7 E!, Minimoog D, Prophet 5, Obie-8 and racked gear incl. TX816, MKS20, QX-1. Cannot post these because copyright is on a well known gear manufacturer. I´m careful posting shots needing permission because these show artist I worked for,- there were the contracts, you know... If I post links, they will not be permanent. Since fighting hip joint arthrosis for years now, I´m working from home only and need my webspace. A.C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Force Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Wow!! Here is Al Coda's pic. How did you get that working ? Make sure you are in full reply mode, and then click on the 4th button from the right ("Enter an Image".) Paste the URL link and you are all set. Steve Force, Durham, North Carolina -------- My Professional Websites Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Coda Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Make sure you are in full reply mode, and then click on the 4th button from the right ("Enter an Image".) Paste the URL link and you are all set. Cool, thx,- that´s what I needed. A.C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Force Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Steve Force, Durham, North Carolina -------- My Professional Websites Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Synthoid Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Make sure you are in full reply mode, and then click on the 4th button from the right ("Enter an Image".) Paste the URL link and you are all set. Or do it yourself w/HTML code: Link%20to%20picture If you ever want to find out how someone includes a picture, video, etc. just click the QUOTE button at the bottom of their post. You can view what HTML code was used there... great learning tool. When an eel hits your eye like a big pizza pie, that's a Moray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Muscara Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Let me be super-geeky and say that the [ ] code isn't HTML code. I've seen it referred to as "BBCode" (such as on flickr.com) where BB stands for Bulletin Board. "I'm so crazy, I don't know this is impossible! Hoo hoo!" - Daffy Duck "The good news is that once you start piano you never have to worry about getting laid again. More time to practice!" - MOI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Let me be super-geeky and say that the [ ] code isn't HTML code. I've seen it referred to as "BBCode" (such as on flickr.com) where BB stands for Bulletin Board. [video:youtube] A bunch of loud, obnoxious music I USED to make with friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Muscara Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 "I'm so crazy, I don't know this is impossible! Hoo hoo!" - Daffy Duck "The good news is that once you start piano you never have to worry about getting laid again. More time to practice!" - MOI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iconoclast Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 This is a great thread. I'm kind of in the same boat. Used a DX9 as a midi-controller for some of the sounds on my S90 for a while but the DX9 transmits so little info and only on ch1 so it was becoming a pain to work. Tried to replace it with Mainstage and a Axiom61 but I found the keys on the Axiom61 to be absolute crap so I returned it after a couple of weeks. Demo'ed an Axiom pro and found the keyboard to play much better but wasn't totally sold on the idea because I'm not convinced I want a 3 keyboard setup. This Korg nano-controller together with an XK3C idea seems pretty interesting though...hmmm. You want me to start this song too slow or too fast? Forte7, Nord Stage 3, XK3c, OB-6, Arturia Collection, Mainstage, MotionSound KBR3D. A bunch of MusicMan Guitars, Line6 stuff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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