First chair to sixth chair clarinet in one challenge

[JeffLearman]

Thank God I grew up to be a completely normal, functional, well-grounded adult.

... and all this time I thought you were a musician.

[Steve Force]

Thank God I grew up to be a completely normal, functional, well-grounded adult.

... and all this time I thought you were a musician.

 

. and here I thought you were a police officer (with apologies to the Blues Brothers.)

[Joe Muscara]

In racing, the first guy across the line who doesn't cheat get caught cheating is the winner.

Fixed it for you. And, there are exceptions to that, like in NASCAR. There, if you "win" and then in the post-race inspection they find out you (or more likely, your crew chief) cheated, they don't take away your win because "it wouldn't be fair to the fans to find out after they got home from the race that the driver they thought won did not."

 

But hey, I'm so glad to hear about all the competition in music in this thread.

[Chris Link]

I was a trumpet player who never practiced. When I realized there were all these good players in junior high I took up the chance to switch to baritone horn. Played first chair for three of four years in high school while good trumpet players had difficulty making the concert band. Never practiced baritone, either.

[kanker.]

When I played trombone in band in middle school, the band director kept me out of first chair. I'd been playing piano for 7 or 8 years by that point, so I sight read all the chair tests and outplayed all the other guys in my section. The thing is, the band director knew I was sight reading and that the other guys had actually taken their horns home and practiced for the tests. I had the talent, but they did the work so they were justly rewarded.

 

That's exactly what happened to me in band, too. Except I played alto sax. I never got first chair because I never practiced and the band director knew that. But I was much better than everyone else in the section, including the first chair. She even said to me once "I don't know why I'm first chair and you're not. You're so much better than me."

 

Funny shit.

Now I know why you got such a purty mouth

[MuzikTeechur]

I judge the challenges. I do so on musicality, technique, preparation, and dedication to the band. So, it's solely based on who plays the part better.

 

 

Not really, according to what you just said.

 

Oops! I wrote/edited that between my marching practice for our upcoming holiday parades Saturday (two of them!) and after-school rehearsal for our musical (Godspell) which is happening this Friday and Sunday. I'm a little scatter-brained and left out the word "not". My mistake and, had I intended it the way it was written, you'd be correct. However, I meant: it's NOT solely based on who plays the part better. Sorry for being in a mad hurry!

 

[Griffinator]

Now I know why you got such a purty mouth

 

You taken up banjo lessons, Kev?

[Mark Zeger]

I was the first chair trumpet in high school. There were 2 others who could play as well as me most days. When asked by the band director, and to avoid being an asshole, I switched to French horn for orchestra and they split the 1st trumpet parts that were 1 per stand. I stayed 1st for band and jazz ensemble. Scored points with the band director and learned a valuable life lesson.

[Cygnus64]

However, I meant: it's NOT solely based on who plays the part better. Sorry for being in a mad hurry!

Got it.

 

Except I played alto sax. I never got first chair because I never practiced and the band director knew that.

 

And you turned out lousy and did absolutely nothing with music. What I don't understand in a situation like that: why is the teacher punishing themselves and the rest of the band? The football coach would put the best player on first string even if he was selling crack. I guess my lack of understanding is one of the many reasons why I'm a really crappy teacher.

[kanker.]

Now I know why you got such a purty mouth

 

You taken up banjo lessons, Kev?

You should see Jim's mouth in person. It's captivating.

[Griffinator]

TMI, Kev. TMI...

[MAJUSCULE]

Yeah, I solved all my school orch problems by going to a small school where the band teacher was an incompetant, half-pedophilic, unreliable, untimely soprano sax player who could barely even speak the language he was supposed to be teaching in. He also isn't legally a teacher. He is also still teaching. It's also no coincidence that less than ten people take a goddamn music class in the whole high school each year. :facepalm:

 

So yeah, I'm not bitter at all.

[Steve Force]

Now I know why you got such a purty mouth

 

You taken up banjo lessons, Kev?

You should see Jim's mouth in person. It's captivating.

 

Hey! don't pick on Kev--he is a published author!

 

(You know about them "soft" synth book writers... )

 

[MuzikTeechur]

Yeah, I solved all my school orch problems by going to a small school where the band teacher was an incompetant, half-pedophilic, unreliable, untimely soprano sax player who could barely even speak the language he was supposed to be teaching in. He also isn't legally a teacher. He is also still teaching. It's also no coincidence that less than ten people take a goddamn music class in the whole high school each year. :facepalm:

 

 

So yeah, I'm not bitter at all.

 

Wait... " incompetant, half-pedophilic, unreliable, untimely soprano sax player..." Did you have Kenny G. for a music teacher?!!

 

If he doesn't hold the proper teaching certification, I'm guessing it's in a school where, if he goes they'll have a problem getting someone else to replace him, or (more likely) they don't have the money to pay a certified teacher and they're paying him as an Ed. Tech (teacher aide).

 

In most parts of the U.S., Music is a core part of the curriculum (the Arts are state-mandated, credit is required for graduation, etc.) so public school regulations dictate that the music teacher must be certified (i.e. have graduated from a real college or university, with at least a bachelor degree in education, and have passed FBI and State Police background checks, no arrests, and be certified by the state Education Board). If a teacher does not meet that level of certification, he or she must be "working toward" certification and usually there's a maximum amount of time allowed - two years is normal.

Private schools are not required to hire certified teachers. Sometimes this is good, sometimes not-so-good.

 

The situation Majuscule describes is ripe for some kid fresh out of college (young, hip, talented, cheap...) to come in and set the world on fire - low expectations, so nobody breathing down your back, and anything you do better than your predecessor (which would probably be EVERYTHING) is a bonus, so lots of kudos, job security, and flexibility to build a great program!

 

Not everyone has a great HS music experience: in my 4 years of high school I had THREE different band directors. The last one slept with my girlfriend while I was away one summer! Luckily I studied piano and saxophone outside the school, and we had a great chorus teacher and a drama program which really drove the curriculum. With the revolving door on our band director office, if I had based my musical experience just on those jokers I probably would be selling insurance or putting spindles on widgets in some factory.

Through my career, I have met some amazing and dynamic music teachers. I've also met some who had no business teaching music to young people (or anyone else for that matter).

[stepay]

Thank God I grew up to be a completely normal, functional, well-grounded adult.

... and all this time I thought you were a musician.

 

Very nice.

[stepay]

TMI, Kev. TMI...

 

I have never been more in agreement with you Griffinator.

[ELP71]

Seems odd that your daughter would drop to 6th from 1st. Seems like the fair thing would have been to move her to 2nd chair, move the 'winner' to 1st, and slide the rest down...or make them ALL re-audition for chairs and just take it from there.

[Cygnus64]

Seems odd that your daughter would drop to 6th from 1st. Seems like the fair thing would have been to move her to 2nd chair, move the 'winner' to 1st, and slide the rest down...or make them ALL re-audition for chairs and just take it from there.

 

If I was a parent (and I'm not), I would speak to the teacher and have my kid sit #2. Then again, I'd probably be that annoying stage-dad kind of parent so pretty much ignore me.

 

It's not right. In fact, it's deeply wrong. It doesn't matter that it's only the high school band, it's a life lesson here. Getting bumped from #1 to #2= good learning experience. Getting bumped from #1 to #6= Bureaucracy with no thought involved. The teacher could be the nicest person in the world but they aren't thinking. If she got chair #1 she's a strong player, she needs to be on the first part. It's better for her, better for the teacher, better for the quality of the band.

 

On second part, she'll lose interest and ultimately lose respect for the teacher. She got screwed and she probably knows it. Week after week she has to watch at least 4 players who she is assumedly better than sit in front of her and play lead.

 

Stuff like this is important to parents. It's probably important to Stepay since he brought it here. There's pride in having your kid at #1 or #2, they are over-achievers. #6 isn't, so personally I would fight it.

[DanS]

Yeah, I solved all my school orch problems by going to a small school where the band teacher was an incompetant, half-pedophilic,

 

Was the other half narcissistic?

[RABid]

My director in HS never had challenges or tryouts, he just assigned as he saw fit which meant the longer you were in band the higher your chair. This could only be circumvented by political power and lots of sucking up. After senior graduation we had 5 drummers in the section and the other 4 were a year ahead of me. That meant I was destined to be suck on bass drum until my senior year. The two on snare drum were real punks and even a suggestion I might play better than them meant harassment and a beat down. It finally caught up with them. We were playing an outdoor concert at a local fair and they thought it would be funny to disappear and make the band sit there and wait on them. I kept telling the band director that I could cover for them but it was not until the seniors insisted that we do something that he relented. I arranged the field drums into a kit and requested that we play The Horse which has a drum solo in the middle. By the end of the song the two missing drummers came running and tried to claim their drums. It was too late. Their screw up was the chance I needed. It was not all joy that day. When I moved from bass drum to section leader a good friend got stuck on bass drum.

 

When I run into band mates from HS band many of them still bring up what they consider my most infamous day in high school band. No, not the day I went from bass drum to section leader. When I was a runt of a freshman carrying bass drum in a Christmas parade I slipped on a patch and landed flat on my back with the bass drum on top of me. I was like a turtle flipped on its back. Some band members marched around me. A few stopped to look. One kept saying "What do I do? What do I do?" Eventually I flopped the bass drum off of me, crawled off of the patch of ice and managed to stand up again. That was in 1973 and people still bring it up.

[stepay]

Seems odd that your daughter would drop to 6th from 1st. Seems like the fair thing would have been to move her to 2nd chair, move the 'winner' to 1st, and slide the rest down...or make them ALL re-audition for chairs and just take it from there.

 

If I was a parent (and I'm not), I would speak to the teacher and have my kid sit #2. Then again, I'd probably be that annoying stage-dad kind of parent so pretty much ignore me.

 

It's not right. In fact, it's deeply wrong. It doesn't matter that it's only the high school band, it's a life lesson here. Getting bumped from #1 to #2= good learning experience. Getting bumped from #1 to #6= Bureaucracy with no thought involved. The teacher could be the nicest person in the world but they aren't thinking. If she got chair #1 she's a strong player, she needs to be on the first part. It's better for her, better for the teacher, better for the quality of the band.

 

On second part, she'll lose interest and ultimately lose respect for the teacher. She got screwed and she probably knows it. Week after week she has to watch at least 4 players who she is assumedly better than sit in front of her and play lead.

 

Stuff like this is important to parents. It's probably important to Stepay since he brought it here. There's pride in having your kid at #1 or #2, they are over-achievers. #6 isn't, so personally I would fight it.

 

I agree that it's a little odd (and perhaps thoughtless from the band teacher) that she moved from #1 to #6), but that's the way they do it, and I'm not about to argue. She has said the second part is boring and not challenging, so that's not good, but she also said she'd be the best second part clarinet ever, so that's the right attitude.

 

It was only important to me (to bring this subject up) just so I could understand what was going on (that the seating can be done however the teacher wants it...there's no standard way). My daughter is already an over-achiever (and even if she weren't, I don't need her to be 1st or 2nd chair). She gets straight A's (all advanced classes), scores off the charts on standardized tests, she's a great athlete, she is always the kid who never misses a student of the month award every year, she wins extra awards that the other kids don't, etc. To see her fall from #1 chair to #6 isn't something I thought would happen, but I don't even have the slightest pull to go talk to her band teacher about it. My kids have been blessed enough, so a move to 6th chair of 15 is really no big deal...gives some other kids a chance to shine a bit.

 

Band is about third on her list of school-related priorities anyway...grades first, then athletics, then band. It's a humbling experience for her, and overall a good thing I think.

[stepay]

Seems odd that your daughter would drop to 6th from 1st. Seems like the fair thing would have been to move her to 2nd chair, move the 'winner' to 1st, and slide the rest down...or make them ALL re-audition for chairs and just take it from there.

 

Yeah...that's what I thought, but not everything in life is fair. Good lesson to learn here. It's a HUGE band, so could just be time consuming to do challenges for all of them. Does seem weird that the #2 chair can just hold onto it because no one challenged her.

[Steve Force]

It's not right. In fact, it's deeply wrong. It doesn't matter that it's only the high school band, it's a life lesson here. Getting bumped from #1 to #2= good learning experience. Getting bumped from #1 to #6= Bureaucracy with no thought involved. The teacher could be the nicest person in the world but they aren't thinking. If she got chair #1 she's a strong player, she needs to be on the first part. It's better for her, better for the teacher, better for the quality of the band.

 

On second part, she'll lose interest and ultimately lose respect for the teacher. She got screwed and she probably knows it. Week after week she has to watch at least 4 players who she is assumedly better than sit in front of her and play lead.

 

Stuff like this is important to parents. It's probably important to Stepay since he brought it here. There's pride in having your kid at #1 or #2, they are over-achievers. #6 isn't, so personally I would fight it.

 

Word.

[Cygnus64]

Yeah...that's what I thought, but not everything in life is fair.

Not everything is fair, but get getting screwed over is a completely different deal.

 

I'm passionate about it because I'm probably the only person here who has to deal with a very similar situation as an adult. Orchestra auditions are chock-ful of absurdity and blatant unfairness. The big difference is that one pays their own travel for an audition, so one might fly across the country, spend three days in a hotel, get taxis etc all for a job that doesn't EXIST. Happens all the time.

 

Somewhat OT but: in orchestras, "first chair" is a significant pay increase. It can be double, so if the section players are making 100K you can make 200K. second chair can make 10-30% more than the section. Both can also take time off with pay. At one job I had I was "second chair": I got a reserved parking space about 12 steps from the stage door while the others parked 2 blocks away and paid to park there. I was also lent an instrument worth a few million, and I made 50% more than the guy that was 3rd. I know Stepay's daughter isn't interested in a career in music, but I'm sure other jobs have similar situations where being higher up on the food chain can yield enormous rewards.

[JeffLearman]

The software engineer in me objects to the teacher's challenge method. I see the advantage that when a challenge happens, it only affects those involved, and that's a good thing.

 

But if we want the challenge system to actually produce the correct results, MORE challenges are required to achieve them. Better results would be obtained by bumping everyone down whenever a challenger wins.

 

Let's say that the order is basically correct, except that a very talented newcomer improves quickly and while in 6th chair, actually belongs in 1st chair. With Stepay's daughter's teacher's method, after the first challenge, the order is out of whack, and it'll take AT LEAST 5 more challenges before it's correct. (More if the challengers don't pick the optimal challenges.)

 

The challenge system is essentially a bubble sort. Bubble sorts are inefficient, but simple. They behave pretty reasonably when the list is already sorted and we're adding a new member, especially if we have a good guess where the new member belongs -- but ONLY if the new member squeezes between who she beat and the next higher chair, NOT if the two exchange places.

 

The bubble sort is the worst performer of all the classic algorithms. It's a "classic" because it's so easy to implement and understand and takes very little code. On average, it takes on the order of N-squared challenges to sort N items. But, using "exchange" rather than "bump" makes it even worse.

 

So, the teacher here fails from the standpoint of efficiency: achieving the correct order with the fewest challenges.

 

Wouldn't the goal to be to try to reach the correct order as quickly as possible, and for it to work best when the order is already correct? The teacher's method fails on both counts.

 

Its only virtue is that those uninvolved in a challenge are unaffected, regardless who wins.

[mate stubb]

Or make challenges so that you can only challenge the person directly above you.

[JeffLearman]

Or make challenges so that you can only challenge the person directly above you.

Right -- that preserves good results with the advantage of swapping, though it doesn't work best when adding a new member who has a good guess where he or she belongs. (This also applies to newly inspired old members.)

[Chris Link]

My director in HS never had challenges or tryouts, he just assigned as he saw fit which meant the longer you were in band the higher your chair. This could only be circumvented by political power and lots of sucking up. After senior graduation we had 5 drummers in the section and the other 4 were a year ahead of me. That meant I was destined to be suck on bass drum until my senior year. The two on snare drum were real punks and even a suggestion I might play better than them meant harassment and a beat down. It finally caught up with them. We were playing an outdoor concert at a local fair and they thought it would be funny to disappear and make the band sit there and wait on them. I kept telling the band director that I could cover for them but it was not until the seniors insisted that we do something that he relented. I arranged the field drums into a kit and requested that we play The Horse which has a drum solo in the middle. By the end of the song the two missing drummers came running and tried to claim their drums. It was too late. Their screw up was the chance I needed. It was not all joy that day. When I moved from bass drum to section leader a good friend got stuck on bass drum.

 

When I run into band mates from HS band many of them still bring up what they consider my most infamous day in high school band. No, not the day I went from bass drum to section leader. When I was a runt of a freshman carrying bass drum in a Christmas parade I slipped on a patch and landed flat on my back with the bass drum on top of me. I was like a turtle flipped on its back. Some band members marched around me. A few stopped to look. One kept saying "What do I do? What do I do?" Eventually I flopped the bass drum off of me, crawled off of the patch of ice and managed to stand up again. That was in 1973 and people still bring it up.

 

Two great "band" stories.

 

Although I was part of the bunch that played in both concert and jazz band and was sort of a leader, my friends and I were pretty poorly behaved. The bandstand in the fieldhouse was on the second floor at one end (we used to schlep a suitcase Rhodes up the equivalent of three and a half flights from the band room) and had big windows that opened onto the flat roof of an equipment room. It always was hotter than hell up there and the director didn't mind us slipping outside to cool off. Of course, we would sneak beers in our cases and sit outside having a cold one. Hard to believe Mr. H wasn't on to us.

 

I did a lot of stuff I would wring my kids' neck for doing.

[MAJUSCULE]

Yeah, I solved all my school orch problems by going to a small school where the band teacher was an incompetant, half-pedophilic, unreliable, untimely soprano sax player who could barely even speak the language he was supposed to be teaching in. He also isn't legally a teacher. He is also still teaching. It's also no coincidence that less than ten people take a goddamn music class in the whole high school each year. :facepalm:

 

 

So yeah, I'm not bitter at all.

 

Wait... " incompetant, half-pedophilic, unreliable, untimely soprano sax player..." Did you have Kenny G. for a music teacher?!!

 

If he doesn't hold the proper teaching certification, I'm guessing it's in a school where, if he goes they'll have a problem getting someone else to replace him, or (more likely) they don't have the money to pay a certified teacher and they're paying him as an Ed. Tech (teacher aide).

 

In most parts of the U.S., Music is a core part of the curriculum (the Arts are state-mandated, credit is required for graduation, etc.) so public school regulations dictate that the music teacher must be certified (i.e. have graduated from a real college or university, with at least a bachelor degree in education, and have passed FBI and State Police background checks, no arrests, and be certified by the state Education Board). If a teacher does not meet that level of certification, he or she must be "working toward" certification and usually there's a maximum amount of time allowed - two years is normal.

Private schools are not required to hire certified teachers. Sometimes this is good, sometimes not-so-good.

 

The situation Majuscule describes is ripe for some kid fresh out of college (young, hip, talented, cheap...) to come in and set the world on fire - low expectations, so nobody breathing down your back, and anything you do better than your predecessor (which would probably be EVERYTHING) is a bonus, so lots of kudos, job security, and flexibility to build a great program!

 

Not everyone has a great HS music experience: in my 4 years of high school I had THREE different band directors. The last one slept with my girlfriend while I was away one summer! Luckily I studied piano and saxophone outside the school, and we had a great chorus teacher and a drama program which really drove the curriculum. With the revolving door on our band director office, if I had based my musical experience just on those jokers I probably would be selling insurance or putting spindles on widgets in some factory.

Through my career, I have met some amazing and dynamic music teachers. I've also met some who had no business teaching music to young people (or anyone else for that matter).

 

More like, the school administration didn't want to put the time and effort into searching for a proper teacher. See, I went to a french school. Obviously, there aren't that many french teachers around here. However, when it comes to math or sciences, they've had no problem looking to Québec or even Europe for a suitable candidate. Not about to happen for music. He's been around for the better part of ten years, in fact. Band, which was around 30 people (Big deal for us) when he came in, literally doesn't exist anymore. Music class is an afterthought for students and other teachers. Thank god we had an after school rock band program and a solid choir through an independent organisation.

 

I've actually thought of training as a music teacher, if only to give other kids a chance. Christ, when I went to jazz camp and saw that other schools in the city had some top-drawer cats with Masters and Doctorates from Rutgers, New England, etc. etc., it quite honestly broke my heart. I was unbelievably jealous. Still am, to be honest. Ah well. At least I graduated in french. HON-HON-HON!

[stepay]

I agree that your deal is WAAAAAY different than my daughter's high school situation. I don't care all that much that she's now at 6th chair. She was upset initially, but she's handling it like a champ, and it might actually make some people see her as human (not some robot that wins at everything), so that's a good thing.

 

Yeah...that's what I thought, but not everything in life is fair.

Not everything is fair, but get getting screwed over is a completely different deal.

 

I'm passionate about it because I'm probably the only person here who has to deal with a very similar situation as an adult. Orchestra auditions are chock-ful of absurdity and blatant unfairness. The big difference is that one pays their own travel for an audition, so one might fly across the country, spend three days in a hotel, get taxis etc all for a job that doesn't EXIST. Happens all the time.

 

Somewhat OT but: in orchestras, "first chair" is a significant pay increase. It can be double, so if the section players are making 100K you can make 200K. second chair can make 10-30% more than the section. Both can also take time off with pay. At one job I had I was "second chair": I got a reserved parking space about 12 steps from the stage door while the others parked 2 blocks away and paid to park there. I was also lent an instrument worth a few million, and I made 50% more than the guy that was 3rd. I know Stepay's daughter isn't interested in a career in music, but I'm sure other jobs have similar situations where being higher up on the food chain can yield enormous rewards.