clone bashing

[CEB]

The Vox and Farfisa emulations on the Nords kick butt! That tranistor combo organ sound works great on the right tunes.

[mate stubb]

The Vox and Farfisa emulations on the Nords kick butt! That tranistor combo organ sound works great on the right tunes.

 

Yet my opinion is that the Farfisa lacks the Treble Booster stops that were the signature sound of the Farfisa. :idk

[richwhite9]

Killer McGriff track. The thing to keep in mind about McGriff's sound is that his B3 was heavily modified (by himself). He did modifications to increase the key click and percussion and also modifications to his Leslies. The other thing to keep in mind is that is a RECORDING. The tone of that sound relies as heavily on the microphones, preamps, EQ, compression, the sound of the room, and the delivery format (in that case, vinyl) as it does on the sound of the instrument.

 

In fact, it sounds like that recording is using a combination of mic'ing the Leslie (or Leslies) and mixing that behind a track of the organ either direct (and heavily EQ'd) or the organ through a stationary cabinet. The tone is very "clicky", the kind of tone that comes straight off the preamp.

 

But certainly within the range of what should be reproduceable in this generation's and coming generation's clonewheels. Even the slightly fat tape saturation effect , the lower reverb, various cabinet mixes, and the percussion attack.

 

Don't let the engineers off too easy .

 

My point would be that may not be the music they are listening too and maybe they need 10 or 20 classic era recordings to consider emulating.

 

God forbid they listen to Nords too much! Then they will never get it right :

[CEB]

Yet my opinion is that the Farfisa lacks the Treble Booster stops that were the signature sound of the Farfisa. :idk

 

That is true. Is there a better Farfisa emulation on a clone?

 

My JV-5050 comes closer to it than my Hammond. The TX81-Z comes closer to the Farfisa sound than a Hammond Suzuki clone. The Farcheeza patch is epic.

[mate stubb]

I think you have to go to software to best the Nord emulation - which brings us back to the Mojo.

 

If you can run your preferred combo organ emulation (ComboSister for instance or my fave, Combo Model V) on the organ's computer, that's a whole 'nother level of customization available for your instrument.

[HammondDave]

Its really just one person bashing the Sk1, and he is sort of known for bashing everything until he discovers it.

 

Rigghhht Tony...

 

 

Dave we've been forum acquaintances for years, and if I were really compelled, I could compile a list of the items you've dumped on, some which you recanted on, most of which you never changed your mind on, but automatically pooh-poohed because it wasnt this or that. Im not really any different. You tend to squat on stuff before you even put your own hands and ears on ithistorically. But I acknowledge that while I consider myself an expert on what I like, my expertise doesnt really cover everyone elses likes, and that ultimately, theres more than one way to skin a cat, and in the right hands, just about all of this stuff sounds pretty frkn happening.

Yeah, even the Nords. (I mention Nord because of the drawBUTTONS, not the perfect organ interface, but definitely quite workable.) Even when it comes do having choices like Nord, B4, Vb3, I still go through the effort of taking the XK1 because it feels great, sounds great, and puts me in the vibe.and Ill take every bit of assistance I can get in that regard!

And again, the right hands, this is all moot. Can anyone argue that Garth Hudson rocked the crap out of the Lowrey?

 

Tony... You are right. I must hate the Nords as well... must be those drawbuttons and that strange user interface...

 

Call me opinionated... Guilty as charged...

 

But my opinions come from what I see, hear, and feel. As I have said in my other posts, I can only formulate opinions on the information given to me. As I have not actually played and SK1/2 yet, I can only go by what I see and hear. And what I have seen and heard leads me to my opinions.

 

Take my opinions for what they are worth. But do not accuse me of unfairly dumping on a product before I 'Discover" it. Do you see me playing a Nord? I bought a Ventilator for a great price, tried it for a while, then sold it. Not because I did not think it was worthy(it is), but because it no longer served my requirements.

 

The Sk1/2 seems to fit an interesting niche (similar to the Nord Electro 3).. and now the new Crumar clone (which sounds great with the VB3 engine). My comments have to do with the sound engine (what is described as the same engine as the XK3c and from what I heard from the numerous clips), and the interface (from what I see).

 

So again, take what I post with as much salt as you wish...

[keyClicker]

I dont know much about Farfs...

 

But talking B3 sound now, I agree with B3-er... things like Eq, Ambience, Mic'ing, input methods, they all come together when we are looking for some 'special' organ sound.

People's taste and goals are really different.

Just to give you an example... I was reading somewhere on the Sk2 thread and someone mentioned that would be great if the lower manual had weighted keys... I read that and I almost threw up.

I mean, he was seriously asking for a weighted keys on a doubled-manual clonewheel. Dude!!! We are waiting for a light double-manual waterfall clone like this for years! Don't take that away from us!...

 

So you see, imagine what would happen if everyone (or every company) did everything that we mentioned here to be right/wrong.

 

 

And, just some other detail that I did not understand:

 

What's the reason for the recent bashing of h/s's vase3 tone generator as in xk3 and sk1? Thought it's supposed to be more authentic than the nord e3, in both the tone wheel and the extra voices.

 

When you say that the Xks are supposed to be more authentic than the NE3. The tonewheel thing is ok, but I didn't get the extra-voices part.

VaseIII is just the tonewheel generation, right?

 

See ya!

[agitato]

According to h/s's specs, the extra voices are also produced by the vase3 system.

[mate stubb]

Nobody, including Hammond, has ever successfully explained to me what Vase is and what it does.

 

So in the absence of any contrary evidence, I'm going to just call it a marketing term.

[Baldwin Funster]

VASEIII means 3 times the Hammondy goodness in every box.

[dazzjazz]

Is the "Hammond" brand really just a "Hammond" in name only?

Seeing as the company has been sold a few times etc - think it was owned by an Aussie at one stage...

 

 

[Gary75]

Is the "Hammond" brand really just a "Hammond" in name only?

Seeing as the company has been sold a few times etc - think it was owned by an Aussie at one stage...

 

 

Should we be looking for a hidden aboriginal soundbank in one of the older clones then?

[keyClicker]

According to h/s's specs, the extra voices are also produced by the vase3 system.

 

Okay!... Did not know that.

I often forget that the Xk-1 has extra sounds... which is actually a good thing.

[CEB]

Nobody, including Hammond, has ever successfully explained to me what Vase is and what it does.

 

So in the absence of any contrary evidence, I'm going to just call it a marketing term.

 

Vase is one of these.

http://www.okokchina.com/Files/uppic16/Wicker%20Flower%20Vase101.jpg

[keyClicker]

Put 3 of these in a row... done! now you know what japanese engineers do for a living.

 

Seriously, I think this VASEIII technology is simply the name of the algorithm used to generate the tonewheel sound inside boards like Xk-1, Xk-3, Xk3c, Sk-1, Sk-2 and even the NewB3.

When I say algorithm that generates tonewheel sound I do mean only the tonewheel sound.

 

Scott, please correct me if I'm wrong... But this is somewhat different than having, for example, the VB3 inside a Hamichord or inside a Mojo.

VB3 is a software that contains many algorithms to solve the whole B3 sound (one algorithm to solve tonewheel, one to solve c/v, one for keyclick, one or more for the rotary sim, etc).

 

So, the VaseIII is probably not the whole brain because if it was, there would be no differences at all between these models listed above. Take for example the leslie sim on the Xk-3 and the leslie sim on the Xk1, or Xk3c. It was improved, but they still call it VaseIII on both boards. So, they claim that all these organs uses VaseIII technology, but we all know they improved some details in the sound generation from one model to another.

 

That's why I thought it was so weird when you mentioned the extra-sounds being part of this VaseIII technology.

 

If this is not the case... Since the Xk-3 has no extra-sounds and the Xk-1 "kinda does" ... they should at least call it VaseIV then.

 

[Jim Alfredson]

The XK3 does have extra sounds in it. They are just hidden.

[JMcS]

It is my understanding that VASE III is the process by which the original Tonewheel sounds are developed in the lab. The software in the instruments is not VASE III software. The OS in the instrument runs/uses the product of the VASE III process. The XK-3 and XK-3c both use VASE III created digital tonewheels but the '3c has a newer more powerful "sound engine" to run them.

 

 

 

 

[kanker.]

The XK3 does have extra sounds in it. They are just hidden.

For that, the world is grateful....

[CEB]

I take it that it isn't worth me figuring out how to get to them. No killer acoustic piano I can trigger from the MP5.

[JMcS]

The access procedure and other info regarding the EV's in the XK-3 and '3c are in the XK-3 Yahoo group's files section:

 

http://tinyurl.com/XK-3YahooGroup

 

Some of the voices sound better than others (not every one agrees on which ones and some don't think any sound good). The velocity data makes a big difference in the way they sound and the XK-3 and '3c velocity is hard to get high enough to bring out the initial attack harmonics and other sounds so they tend to sound a little dull. I run my lower manual through a computer first so I can bump the velocity data up some and that improves them (IMO). Also, it is possible to have the pedal tones sound somewhat piano-ish (Synth-2) by adjusting decay and other parameters and layer them with the EV by having the computer also send the note data on channel three.

 

As always, IMO, YMMV, Yada Yada Yada.

[keyClicker]

The XK3 does have extra sounds in it. They are just hidden.

 

what do I know?

[CEB]

The access procedure and other info regarding the EV's in the XK-3 and '3c are in the XK-3 Yahoo group's files section:

 

http://tinyurl.com/XK-3YahooGroup

 

...

 

Thanks a lot!

[LX88]

As far as I can recall there were comments on the Numa not having proper "layout".

 

I LIKE THE NUMA LAYOUT. I really like where the percussion switches are for one. They are closer to my playing range than even a B-3.

 

And since I hooked a footswitch to the Numa leslie sim, I haven't touched the "improperly" located half moon.

 

The bass control is also right near the percussion swithches and with it I can adjust more or less bass, which is about the only thing I ever did with the second set of drawbars on a B-3.

 

I don't use the Numa presets much . To be honest I don't care for non locking ones. I often just turn them off.

 

I can't believe I have something like THIS that weighs 22 lbs. I sure hope the SK-1 has a leslie sim that is at this level. I do not need a leslie. This thing sounds friggin' OUTRAGEOUS in STEREO. I would miss having that in a real leslie.

 

We are into a new age of clone realism. I think that Key B/ VB3 / NUMA has raised the bar, and I really hope the other companies follow suit.

[keyClicker]

I've heard good things and bad things from the Numa... (pretty much like every clone we talk about here).

I played one once. I thought it was pretty good. Some say it does not sound that well on headphones and have Eq issues. Did not notice anything back then.

 

The Vb3 is great, and I would like to hear and play a KeyB just out of curiosity.

[richwhite9]

It was billed this way once to note the xtra voices

 

PCM Vase-II & DRB Vase-II Digital Technology

 

NEW SAMPLING TECHNOLOGY : Now the all-new VASE-II + DRB sampling technology captures the sound and feel of the incomparable Hammond B3. The idea of sampling a B3 has been around for a long time. So has the notion of making a Drawbar Module. But just sampling and having Drawbars was not enough. Hammond has also recreated those idiosyncrasies of the tone-wheel generator that thave eluded all previous digital systems.

 

 

What if they remove the tube preamp? Would the organ engine be the same? Would the sky still be blue? Please use my favorite nomenclature!

 

 

[Dglavko]

Yes it does "Start and End" with Hammond. We invented it.

 

I love Hammond, and am a proud Hammond-Suzuki product owner. I also love what Nord, Ventilator, Motion Sound, Speakeasy etc. and the others have done in keeping the tradition alive, and then some. (Where would H-S and clonewheelers everywhere be today without a decade plus of Electros?)

 

But I'm not (yet) convinced Hammond-Suzuki = Hammond of the glory days.

 

If, on the other hand, Hammond - Suzuki employed service techs able to supply parts, service and maintain my vintage A100, then I might feel otherwise. Maybe they do, I really don't know, and throw that question out there for debate as perhaps the true objective "we are Hammond" test.

 

Failing that, I think that they (Hammond-Suzuki, Nord, Num, Key-B, Korg, Roland, Kurweil) are all just clones.

 

But that's just my opinion.

[HammondDave]

I doubt that there is any support from Hammond/Suzuki for classic Hammond organs. I am fortunate to live in the LA area and Bill Axman is my tech for my organs. This is what he does full time. There are only a relatively few Hammond techs left.

 

Hammond was purchased by Suzuki to make money. Period. I am sure that some in the company (like Scott) take a great deal of pride in the Hammond name. But I certainly don't expect a company like this to honor its past by committing to service the thousands of classic Hammond tonewheel organs still out there.

 

They are interested in new organs and synths... and how much money they can make on them.

[JMcS]

This is the company profile information from the Hammond US website:

 

Company Profile

 

"In 1991, Japans Suzuki Corporation, manufacturer of a wide range of high-quality musical instruments, purchased Hammond Organ. Mr. Manji Suzuki, President and Chairman of the Board of Suzuki Corporation, always enjoyed listening to the fabulous sounds created by the Hammond organs. When Mr. Suzuki first learned that Hammond Organ was for sale, he immediately took all the necessary steps to purchase the company.

 

Hammond Suzuki USA, Inc. initially began operations as the distributor of Hammond organs and Leslie speakers in the U.S. From these modest beginnings, Hammond Suzuki soon diversified its operations by adding manufacturing capabilities. Located in Addison, Illinois, Hammond Suzuki USA, together with its extensive manufacturing facilities in Hamamatsu, Japan, continues to proudly build some of the finest musical instruments in the world. Hammond Suzuki USAs operations, headquartered in suburban Chicago, include manufacturing and warehousing of the world-famous Hammond organs and Leslie speakers. Its extensive facilities provide its strong, dedicated management and marketing team accommodations for distribution, technical support, and state-of-the-art product design capabilities.

 

It is our companys mission to produce the most innovative, best-sounding musical instruments at the lowest price possible. Today we are just as committed to building the best organ and Leslie products as we were the first day our company was founded. Even more, we are committed to preserving the sound of Hammond organs and Leslie speakers for generations to come."

 

 

While Mr. Suzuki may intend for the Hammond division to generate a profit I think he has given more to the world of Hammond than he gets credit for.

 

 

Hammond US doesn't have a national branch network with service techs. They depend on a long list of authorized Hammond dealers which have their own techs. Hammond US still provides a fair number of parts for the old tonewheel organs and most dealers have a collection of old instruments from which needed rare parts can be scavenged. My local dealer gave me a tour of their warehouse and shop a few years ago and it was a sight like the warehouse in the Raiders of the Lost Arc movie.

[Michelle ggurl]

We can spend months arguing the minutiae of each clone. I'd rather spend that time making music.

 

 

Amen to that. I don't play organ sounds at all in my current endeavors, but I feel the very same way about digital pianos. To me, the sound of pianos out there these days are all decent, but not the same as a real piano ... so then it comes down to personal preference in terms of how the sound connects to the keys and the action. To a degree I imagine it's the same with organ clones?

[Jim Alfredson]

I doubt that there is any support from Hammond/Suzuki for classic Hammond organs. I am fortunate to live in the LA area and Bill Axman is my tech for my organs. This is what he does full time. There are only a relatively few Hammond techs left.

 

Hammond was purchased by Suzuki to make money. Period. I am sure that some in the company (like Scott) take a great deal of pride in the Hammond name. But I certainly don't expect a company like this to honor its past by committing to service the thousands of classic Hammond tonewheel organs still out there.

 

They are interested in new organs and synths... and how much money they can make on them.

 

Does Yamaha still support the 70's CS line?

 

Does Baldwin still support pianos they made in the 1920s under the Howard name or even their own name?

 

No, you have to rely on techs for that. I don't see how that is somehow indicative of Hammond-Suzuki being some sort of un-real incarnation of Hammond. Time moves on.