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clone bashing


agitato

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What's the reason for the recent bashing of h/s's vase3 tone generator as in xk3 and sk1?

Think I must have missed that one..... where, & who, has done the "recent bashing" ?

 

I've only read (very) good reviews of the VASE III organ tone - I bought an XK-1 because it sounds SOOOOOO good.

 

 

John.

 

some stuff on myspace

 

Nord: StageEX-88, Electro2-73, Hammond: XK-1, Yamaha: XS7

Korg: M3-73 EXpanded, M50-88, X50, Roland: Juno D, Kurzweil: K2000vp.

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I think the OP is talking about the thread regarding the Crumar Mojo, which uses VB3.

"I'm so crazy, I don't know this is impossible! Hoo hoo!" - Daffy Duck

 

"The good news is that once you start piano you never have to worry about getting laid again. More time to practice!" - MOI

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I know what you're talking about.

 

Sometimes I read some posts here that makes me wonder if this whole forum thing is benefic at the end of the day.

 

I've read that the chorus/vib on the XK series (Xk-1, Xk-3) hurts someone's ears.

And also heard that some people do not like their Leslie sim.

 

It's pretty weird... I know lots of people that live this 'organ jazz' environment everyday, and they keep saying both Xk-1 and Xk-3 sound great. And, I've played lots of tonewheels before and from what I've heard and played, these 'vaseIII' boards sound furiously awesome!

 

But man... I come here and read the most disturbing things.

One week, the Numa is the best thing ever and beats the crap out of any other clone... next week someone is saying that the Numa sounds thin out of their headphones... and only sounds cool if its connected to some expensive speaker.

After that, there's someone mentioning that the C2 is the most faithful thing and it sounds just like their cheap A100. But some two or three posts bellow there's someone saying that the keyclick on the C2 is too artificial along with the percussion.

 

So, I don't know...

It's cool to come here and read the discussions, we learn a lot from some users.

But other than that, these betterclone/worseclone stuff is just... :blah:

 

I know what I want to sound like, but I just trust my own ears and my own fingers.

 

 

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Its really just one person bashing the Sk1, and he is sort of known for bashing everything until he discovers it.

 

Rigghhht Tony...

 

The only product that you could even come close to making this case is in regards to my views on the Ventilator. And I still don't think its worth $500 (which was my only real issue with it)!

 

Regarding "discovering" instruments, I gigged with an XK3 and XK3c system for over four years. I think I know how it sounds compared to a VB3 or KeyB.

 

But even saying that, its all just my opinion...

 

 

'55 and '59 B3's, Leslies 147, 122, 21H, Motif XS7, Mellotrons M300 and M400, Wurlitzer 200, Gibson G101, Vox Continental, Mojo
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What's the reason for the recent bashing of h/s's vase3 tone generator as in xk3 and sk1? Thought it's supposed to be more authentic than the nord e3, in both the tone wheel and the extra voices.

 

If you expect us all to link arms and sing kumbaya as we anoint one particular product as the be-all Hammond emulator, get a grip.

 

Next to acoustic piano (another subject endlessly debated), the Hammond organ sound has been popular in a wide variety of music genres the longest.

 

Since no 2 Hammonds sound alike, since we play a wide range of musical styles, since we all have our own idea of what Hammond sound we like - we are going to have our own ideas of which clones are the best.

 

As for bashing - we are relatively genteel about it compared to most web fora.

 

Oh, and BTW, I hate the sound of Roland clones. :D

Moe

---

"I keep wanting to like it's sound, but every demo seems to demonstrate that it has the earth-shaking punch and peerless sonics of the Roland Gaia. " - Tusker

http://www.hotrodmotm.com

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If you expect us all to link arms and sing kumbaya as we anoint one particular product as the be-all Hammond emulator, get a grip.

And just as Steinway isn't the last word on pianos, Hammond isn't the last word on organs.

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If you expect us all to link arms and sing kumbaya as we anoint one particular product as the be-all Hammond emulator, get a grip.

And just as Steinway isn't the last word on pianos, Hammond isn't the last word on organs.

 

 

I guess it all depends on the organ.

'55 and '59 B3's, Leslies 147, 122, 21H, Motif XS7, Mellotrons M300 and M400, Wurlitzer 200, Gibson G101, Vox Continental, Mojo
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I guess it all depends on the organ.

You say "Hammond," I say "I'll use whatever I damn well please."

 

D-Bon's rig spotted recently on stage:

 

http://organpron.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/70s-wurlitzer-funmaker.jpg

 

;)

Moe

---

"I keep wanting to like it's sound, but every demo seems to demonstrate that it has the earth-shaking punch and peerless sonics of the Roland Gaia. " - Tusker

http://www.hotrodmotm.com

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D-Bon's rig spotted recently on stage:

 

http://organpron.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/70s-wurlitzer-funmaker.jpg

 

;)

Come on, Moe, you know I endorse Baldwin.

 

http://www.magnetmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/organ440.jpg

 

;)

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Since no 2 Hammonds sound alike, since we play a wide range of musical styles, since we all have our own idea of what Hammond sound we like - we are going to have our own ideas of which clones are the best.

 

And that's a good thing. Things 'round here would be awfully boring if we all agreed all the time.

Custom Music, Audio Post Production, Location Audio

www.gmma.biz

https://www.facebook.com/gmmamusic/

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It is good to have somewhere to bitch about what you don't like and to trumpet the things you do like. The problem comes when people react to your opinions on an instrument as if they are an opinion about them.
Endorsing Artist/Ambassador for MAG Organs and Motion Sound Amplifiers
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D-Bon: Yes it does "Start and End" with Hammond. We invented it. None of the imitators have added to the "Canon". The instruments that the imitators make may respond better to YOUR playing style and taste. It may hit YOUR ears better. Go and buy one. That is your prerogative. I won't denigrate the imitators, but that's what they are, and there is no logical argument against it. If you're talking about "clones" you're talking about companies that make direct copies of our products in sound, operation, and look (to varying degrees). The Hammond products are not "clones" because we are Hammond itself. The B-3 is still in production. If you think that if the Hammond company was still in the ownership of the Hammond family, that we would still be making electro-mechanical tonewheel organs, then think again. Ford doesn't make Model T's any longer, do they? EVERY person who buys a clone, is buying a "Hammond" in their mind. There is no "Nord" or "Numa" sound. This isn't an insult, it's a fact. The clone's websites and promotional materials even describe their organs using OUR terminology. All I ask is that folks have respect for the original item, and the company that continues to build it (and has for 77 years or so..)
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D-Bon: Yes it does "Start and End" with Hammond. We invented it. None of the imitators have added to the "Canon".

Either you've missed my point or your sense of entitlement is clouding your judgment. I'm not talking dedicated Hammond clones. I'm simply saying Hammond isn't the be all and end all. There are many other worthy organs out there. You may not agree with me, but my statement is not disrespecting Hammond. :rolleyes:

 

There is no "Nord" or "Numa" sound.

But there's a Vox sound and a Farfisa sound and Lowrey sound... See what I'm getting at here? Chillax, dude.

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You can't buy a truly bad current production Hammond clonewheel today. That's the real problem :)

 

 

But, as always, you can buy the wrong instrument for you.

 

When people are obsessing over the C/V instead of the Overdrive, Keyclick, Percussion, Leslie and Drawbars it's a progression I think.

 

The C/V thing would go over better with more demos (I don't mean the Ventilator C/V thing.

 

I'm simple. I'm prrety sure the programmers at Hammond are simple too.

 

GIGO.

 

If someone drops 3 classic 50s or early 60s era tracks and said "I can't get this sound" and it's really well presented people will either rise to the challenge and prove it's possible or it becomes a pretty good thread with noted examples for Hammond to listen too.

 

Feedback is a two-way thing. Duh.

 

If this is the sound you are trying to nail then just say so.

 

[video:youtube]

 

 

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There is no "Nord" or "Numa" sound.

But there's a Vox sound and a Farfisa sound and Lowrey sound... See what I'm getting at here? Chillax, dude.

 

How many dedicated Vox and Farfisa clones are there on the market right now?

 

;)

 

When people think organ in rock, jazz, blues, or gospel, they think Hammond.

 

Not to say other organs aren't viable, but they don't have the legacy that the Hammond sound does. I love the Yamaha combo organs, for instance. They have a really cool, unique sound.

 

As for which clone is the best and the ever shifting tide of opinion, I've said it many times on this forum: Play what you have and enjoy it. I still use the XK3. I played my XK3 through a Leslie 2101 this weekend in Los Angeles. After the show at least a dozen people from the audience came up to me and not one of them said "You should be playing a "real" Hammond" or even mentioned the XK3 at all. They just expressed their appreciate of the music.

 

The only person who said anything about the XK3 was another fellow keyboardist who plays organ at the Kibbitz Room every Tuesday in LA. And he said it sounded killer.

 

We can spend months arguing the minutiae of each clone. I'd rather spend that time making music.

 

 

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Killer McGriff track. The thing to keep in mind about McGriff's sound is that his B3 was heavily modified (by himself). He did modifications to increase the key click and percussion and also modifications to his Leslies. The other thing to keep in mind is that is a RECORDING. The tone of that sound relies as heavily on the microphones, preamps, EQ, compression, the sound of the room, and the delivery format (in that case, vinyl) as it does on the sound of the instrument.

 

In fact, it sounds like that recording is using a combination of mic'ing the Leslie (or Leslies) and mixing that behind a track of the organ either direct (and heavily EQ'd) or the organ through a stationary cabinet. The tone is very "clicky", the kind of tone that comes straight off the preamp.

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What I want to know is why is it when I needed a XB-2 replacement black key a couple of years ago I had to order one from BB Organ (no problem whatsoever very good vendor but I used to get my stuff at Addison)

 

The key weighs nothing and cost less than $10 but it cost me over $20 to have the part shipped to my house from Addison. Heck I could have driven over to Addison and picked it up. When the vendor told me shipping was going to cost over twice the cost of the part I thought it was coming from Asia. :D

 

PS - I am going to have to buy 3 black keys more before I can sell my XB-2. The little plastic teeth at the top of the keys that hold the keys in place worn or broken on the 3 top black keys.

"It doesn't have to be difficult to be cool" - Mitch Towne

 

"A great musician can bring tears to your eyes!!!

So can a auto Mechanic." - Stokes Hunt

 

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Not to say other organs aren't viable, but they don't have the legacy that the Hammond sound does.

No one is doubting Hammond's legacy, so I'm mystified as to why certain people seem to be taking comments so personally. It's not an affront to prefer another make of organ over Hammond.

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Its really just one person bashing the Sk1, and he is sort of known for bashing everything until he discovers it.

 

Rigghhht Tony...

 

:wave:

 

Dave we've been forum acquaintances for years, and if I were really compelled, I could compile a list of the items you've dumped on, some which you recanted on, most of which you never changed your mind on, but automatically pooh-poohed because it wasnt this or that. Im not really any different. You tend to squat on stuff before you even put your own hands and ears on ithistorically. But I acknowledge that while I consider myself an expert on what I like, my expertise doesnt really cover everyone elses likes, and that ultimately, theres more than one way to skin a cat, and in the right hands, just about all of this stuff sounds pretty frkn happening.

Yeah, even the Nords. (I mention Nord because of the drawBUTTONS, not the perfect organ interface, but definitely quite workable.) Even when it comes do having choices like Nord, B4, Vb3, I still go through the effort of taking the XK1 because it feels great, sounds great, and puts me in the vibe.and Ill take every bit of assistance I can get in that regard!

And again, the right hands, this is all moot. Can anyone argue that Garth Hudson rocked the crap out of the Lowrey?

 

Hitting "Play" does NOT constitute live performance. -Me.
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