Live Sound Advice

[NoahZark]

I need a little advice from my KC friends....

 

For most of the gigs that my current band plays, we run our own sound and I control it from the stage. For our next gig, we're playing a bar with a FOH guy. There's the obvious advantage of being able to leave all my PA gear at home, but it's left me with a little dilemma about how best to run my keyboard rig (especially since I prefer to run stereo, but I strongly suspect that the sound guy will prefer a mono feed).

 

I have a pair of K10s that I recently picked up to use as stage monitors for the band, and I'm planning to use them for my keyboard monitors at this upcoming gig. I also have a Mackie 802 VLZ3 small format mixer that typically stays in my home music room but may come out for this gig. My inclination is to use both of the K10s and the Mackie mixer. I can run my keyboards (S90ES and NE3) into the mixer (in stereo), feed the main outs from the mixer to the K10s, and then send a separate mono feed from the mixer to front of house.

 

My questions are this:

 

-- Am I making a mistake by trying to sub-mix my keyboard rig on stage (which won't allow the FOH guy to balance the mix between the two boards).

 

-- Should I ditch the Mackie mixer and use the mixing features of the K10s themselves (run keyboards directly into the K10s and feed the FOH from the K10s)?

 

-- Do you think I could get away with one K10 instead of two? We're a decently loud rock band, but we don't really scream. (And yes, I realize that one speaker kills my stereo plan.)

 

-- Thoughts on positioning of the K10s on stage? Do you guys prefer them "monitor style" on the floor or elevated and positioned vertically behind (or to the side) you?

 

Also, because I don't want to derail my own thread with the never-ending stereo/mono debate, assume for the moment that running stereo for my own monitoring purposes on stage is pretty much non-negotiable (unless I go with the single K10 idea). I may give up on that idea, but I'd like to get your thoughts as if that's the plan.

 

I know many of you guys run very similar rigs, so I welcome your advice/thoughts on how you would do it.

 

Many thanks.

 

Noah

[DanL]

-- Am I making a mistake by trying to sub-mix my keyboard rig on stage (which won't allow the FOH guy to balance the mix between the two boards).

 

No- unless he's perfectly in tune with you and paying attention, you are better sending him 1 line as a blended signal.

 

-- Should I ditch the Mackie mixer and use the mixing features of the K10s themselves (run keyboards directly into the K10s and feed the FOH from the K10s)?

I'd use the mixer and give him 1 feed from it. If you run stereo and use the outputs on the K10's, then you need 2 lines to FOH or he's only getting one side of your signal.

 

-- Do you think I could get away with one K10 instead of two? We're a decently loud rock band, but we don't really scream. (And yes, I realize that one speaker kills my stereo plan.)

One K10 is perfectly adequate as a personal/stage monitor.

 

-- Thoughts on positioning of the K10s on stage? Do you guys prefer them "monitor style" on the floor or elevated and positioned vertically behind (or to the side) you?

I have mine standing up on my rack so it's about ear height, not directly behind me, but a little off to the side, as in this picture. The K10 has a wide dispersment angle and everyone says they can hear me fine.

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj60/dan88z/DSCN1698.jpg

 

 

[MoodyBluesKeys]

I run a similar setup (PC3 instead of the S90, but with NE3 if I carry both boards), one or two K10's, and a small Tapco mixer.

 

If I have FOH sound, I also carry one other piece of gear: a Radial stereo DI. I have used the K10 as a DI before, but it does not do ground lift, and the Radial does.

 

I would use the mixer for two reasons, first one is that I set it up on the floor right next to me, so if I need to change something midstream, it is easier to do so. Second is that I prefer giving the FOH sound person ONE feed, I like to do my own balancing between the keyboards. I would also give them a mono feed unless they specifically want stereo (not probable, in my experience).

 

Set the K10's up so that you are at the focus of their sound, and that the sound is aimed at you, not the audience or rest of band (assuming that FOH includes stage monitors). If you place them right, you won't need a lot of volume from them - in fact, I like to still be able to hear a bit of the house mix in situations where that is possible. If you want stereo, do it - carry them both. But if you do, be very sure that you also make some checks to see that the mono feed sounds good - that is what your audience is going to hear. I've gotten to where I usually only carry one K10 unless I need more volume because I'd rather hear very close to what the audience hears.

 

BTW, my favorite monitor for this sort of thing is my tiny Roland CM-30, with a 6.5" speaker. It fits on a mic stand, so I can put it up at ear level a few feet away. I want to hear just enough of ME to be sure that I'm playing right, otherwise; I'd rather hear how my mix is with the band. The K10 is too big to fit on that sort of stand.

 

It's the same principle as the guitarist that sets their HiWatt amp on the floor, where their knees get the full blast, and their ears don't hear it until it is insanely loud. For monitors, aim to sound to the ears.

 

I know there are a lot of "if's," "maybe's," and variables above. You won't really know exactly what you need until you get there - remember the old BS motto: "Be prepared."

 

[Mr. Nightime]

As far as I'm concerned, it is Never a mistake to sub mix your boards yourself. It sounds like you'll be using a FOH guy that may not be fully familiar with your band, and as such will not know the mix that you're shooting for with the boards. Plus, they usually only have one channel earmarked for keys.

 

I'm using the single K-10, and I'll put it on a tripod stand with me as the focal point. I havn't been using FOH, so it has to supply all the sound. No problem there.

 

Set up in such a way where you're getting the best sound to yourself that you can. It helps with the inspiration.

 

[mate stubb]

You'll be lucky if the FOH guy has the overall level of the keys audible in the mix, much less ask him to mix the relative levels.

[NoahZark]

Thanks, gents. Sounds like my initial instincts on setup were right.

 

And, Moe, I hear ya: In my various experiences with FOH engineers (both as a player -- albeit many years ago -- and as an audience member), I'm more surprised when I can actually hear the keyboards in the mix than not. They must all be ex-guitarists or something....

 

Noah

 

 

[DanL]

...and drummers.

[allan_evett]

Most FOH engineers are relieved when told that I'll be sending them a sub mixed signal, and are even happier - for the most part - when that is sent in mono. I have a couple of different line mixers (one will be part of my current 'rack in progress'), but lately have been using an Edirol M10-MX: a little tabletop that sits well on most keyboards. Its' 1/8" headphone out works great for personal monitoring, connecting perfectly into my K10's dual RCA inputs using an 1/8" to RCA splitter. The Mackie 802 should work great for your situation; I used a 1202, similarly, on a church gig for many years.

 

A single K10 works fine for me, though I don't have a basis for comparison - as I only have one K10. I suspect two K10's, positioned well, would provide excellent stereo monitoring onstage; but it is extra gear to schlep. The single K10 has power to spare, and sounds great. Whatever sounds best for you onstage is what you should go with.

 

BTW: I Like the S90ES / Electro combinations described/pictured. That's a potent dual keyboard combination.

[Bridog6996]

+1 to both Sven and Allan's posts. With the set-up that I'm using the most often right now (three keyboards and various other toys), the sound guys usually look a little apprehensive when they see me unpacking all my gear. When they ask me how many lines I need and I say "only one" and point to my mixer, there's usually a noticeable look of relief.

 

Most sound guys I've encountered over the years tend to bury the keys in the mix to begin with, so relying on them to mix your levels for multiple keyboards in addition to that is kinda useless.

[kanker.]

Nothing makes a sound man your friend quicker than sending him only one line....

 

 

I'll say it again - stereo is for amateurs.

[Griffinator]

Thanks, gents. Sounds like my initial instincts on setup were right.

 

And, Moe, I hear ya: In my various experiences with FOH engineers (both as a player -- albeit many years ago -- and as an audience member), I'm more surprised when I can actually hear the keyboards in the mix than not. They must all be ex-guitarists or something....

 

Noah

 

 

*raises hand*

 

Well, not an ex-guitarist, at least not yet...

 

But then, I mix to the vocals, then balance everything else out. I figure any guitarist worth his salt has a booster for when he plays a solo, so there's no reason to make him louder than the keys. By the same token, I kinda expect the keys man to turn up a bit on his solo as well...

[stillplaying]

Nothing makes a sound man your friend quicker than sending him only one line....

 

 

To help keep him awake?

[NoahZark]

I'll say it again - stereo is for amateurs.

 

You've said it before? :grin:

[kanker.]

I'll say it again - stereo is for amateurs.

 

You've said it before? :grin:

I'm good at pontificatin'

[Sam Mullins]

Nothing makes a sound man your friend quicker than sending him only one line....

 

 

To help keep him awake?

 

At a gig many years ago we finished our set and I went back to talk to the club's sound guy about the monitor level....and he was asleep under the sound board. I kid you not.

 

[NoahZark]

Okay, folks. Now that I have feedback on my earlier questions, let's take a different approach to the stereo/mono question:

 

Let's assume that I want to run in mono instead of stereo, is there anything I need to think about with either of my boards besides just plugging a single cord into the L output instead of two cords into L and R? For example, do I need to activate the "Mono" mode on the Electro 3? Should I use the mono piano on the S90ES instead of the "Natural S" piano that is my mainstay AP sound? Any other advice as I try to graduate from my "amateur" status?

 

I'm still not really looking to debate the merits of stereo vs. mono here (that's obviously been done plenty 'round these parts). I'd just like your thoughts on how best to "go mono" if that's the choice I make.

 

Thanks!

 

Noah

[Griffinator]

Definitely avoid "stereo" patches - they tend to, well, SUCK when folded to mono.

[NoahZark]

Definitely avoid "stereo" patches - they tend to, well, SUCK when folded to mono.

 

Precisely what I'm worried about.

[mate stubb]

Yes, you need to activate mono mode on the Nord. It sums mono a lot (LOT) better than the phasey results you can get doing it in a mixer.

 

That only affects the acoustic piano patches though.

[mynameisdanno]

The only answer on that is to play around with the various options available to you. Preferably at a leisurely soundcheck in a venue you're familiar with, or if you can't swing that, at home, with that pair of K10's set on the other side of the room and some distance apart to simulate a typical PA setup, but being fed the same mono signal.

 

If a specially recorded mono sound is provided, it may be your best bet. But with some patches, using one side or the other of a stereo patch will yield good results, and if the patches were recorded with collapsing to mono in mind, the straight summing done by the keyboard's "R/Mono" (or whatever) output can do just fine. The Yamaha CP300 provides a mono patch, but it just doesn't sound as good to me as using the right side only of the Grand Piano 1 or Mellow Piano 1 patch, at least when playing with a full band.

 

I have no idea what the "mono mode" does on the newer Nord stuff.

 

See also: The Great Mono Piano Shootout

[mate stubb]

Mono mode on a Nord is their specific response to complaints from users about out of phase and hollow tone problems they had with running the stereo nord pianos in mono.

 

I'm tellin ya, push ze button!

[J. Dan]

+1 on sending a sub mixed mono signal to FOH

+1 on bringing a Radial DI

Whatever monitor setup you use, if you also do vocals, maximize your ability to hear the monitor while minimizing others hearing your monitor and Bowen through the vocal mic (yours and others).

[NoahZark]

Yes, you need to activate mono mode on the Nord. It sums mono a lot (LOT) better than the phasey results you can get doing it in a mixer.

 

That only affects the acoustic piano patches though.

 

Moe: If the last part of what you say is true, then mono mode won't do anything for me, since I don't use any acoustic piano patches on my NE3 at gigs. All my APs come from the S90ES.

 

 

 

[NoahZark]

For anyone running mono with an S90ES, what has worked best for you?

 

Noah

[Al Coda]

Nothing makes a sound man your friend quicker than sending him only one line....

 

 

To help keep him awake?

 

With ONE only ? :-)

 

What´s more worse than none ?

ONE !

 

A.C.

[DanL]

For anyone running mono with an S90ES, what has worked best for you?

 

Noah

 

I use the output labelled mono. Can't remember if it's the left or right, but it says mono for sure. Never noticed any phasing or other sonic issues running that way.

[kanker.]

For anyone running mono with an S90ES, what has worked best for you?

 

Noah

 

I use the output labelled mono. Can't remember if it's the left or right, but it says mono for sure. Never noticed any phasing or other sonic issues running that way.

 

If that's really what's up, then good on Yamaha for making their stuff collapse to mono effectively.

[_Maximus_]

-- Am I making a mistake by trying to sub-mix my keyboard rig on stage (which won't allow the FOH guy to balance the mix between the two boards).

 

No.

 

if your sounds and keyboards are already balanced to your liking, why would he have anything to mess with that, its already bad enough being a keyboardist and having to fight the sonic space in the mix with one keyboard.

 

-- Should I ditch the Mackie mixer and use the mixing features of the K10s themselves (run keyboards directly into the K10s and feed the FOH from the K10s)?

 

I wouldn't, that way you can adjust your monitor volume without affecting the FOH feed

-- Do you think I could get away with one K10 instead of two? We're a decently loud rock band, but we don't really scream. (And yes, I realize that one speaker kills my stereo plan.)

 

Yes, you could get away with one, as long as the guitar player doesn't bring his Full marshall stack

 

-- Thoughts on positioning of the K10s on stage? Do you guys prefer them "monitor style" on the floor or elevated and positioned vertically behind (or to the side) you?

 

i use my K10 to the side

 

Also, because I don't want to derail my own thread with the never-ending stereo/mono debate, assume for the moment that running stereo for my own monitoring purposes on stage is pretty much non-negotiable (unless I go with the single K10 idea). I may give up on that idea, but I'd like to get your thoughts as if that's the plan.

 

bottomline: How much gear do you want to bring?

 

just mu 2 cents

[Adan]

I try to be flexible to give the sound guy/girl what they want. My own preference is to self-mix and send one mono line to the house. More often than not, that's what the house wants as well. My main band is a 14-piece, so they have enough to deal with without making a federal case out of the keyboard mix.

 

But not always. Sometimes they'll want stereo and/or separate lines for each keyboard. If they seem really interested in doing it, and they appear competent and in a good mood that day, then it might be a good idea. They might really be interested in making the keyboards sound as good as possible. It's the exception, but it happens. Though I'm skeptical about running stereo in an large venue, I am not the expert on whether it will work . . . the house guy is.

 

I'm currently using the head to my Roland SA-300 for my stage monitor. It gives me the option of mixing 4 stereo lines down to one mono line out, if that's what I need. For piano, the mono mode on the Nords is the best solution I've found.

 

To my mind, the stereo v. mono discussion is resolved very simply when sending to FOH . . . mono is best. The smaller the space and the fewer the instruments involved, the more substance there is to the debate.

[Moonglow]

For anyone running mono with an S90ES, what has worked best for you?

 

Noah

Noah, if he doesn't jump in here, you may want to send brother tonysounds a PM, as I believe he runs his S90ES in mono and uses a K10. He may have some tips. I've heard him a few times, and it always sounded great from the FOH perspective.

 

....and for record, "+1" on sending the FOH a single, submixed line out. I've been running it like this for many years, and frankly wouldn't do it any other way.