Full-size NI B4 controller

[MonksDream]

Hanging around in this forum and reading the various B3 and clone-wheel threads has got me interested in learning to "grab drawbars", "kick bass", and "move air". I have Native Instrument's B4 but it isn't quite the same. Obviously somebody else felt the same so he built THIS. At least it's lighter than the real deal! But probably not by much.

 

http://www.m-berger.de/projects/b4controller/en/media/images/b4controller_final-1.jpg

[mate stubb]

Extremely nice, but still impractical for gigging. I am corresponding with a guy on Clonewheel who has built a couple of controllers out of Hammond parts, just like I am doing.

 

He has posted a couple of cool pics to that list, but I don't know if I can link directly to them here.

[mate stubb]

The guy's name is Jim Smiley, from Aussieland. I believe he is running B4 on the little VBox. Looks like very professional work.

 

http://d.yimg.com/kq/groups/418543/hr/1872049114/name/keyboard1.jpg

 

http://d.yimg.com/kq/groups/418543/hr/1155958425/name/keyboard2.jpg

 

http://d.yimg.com/kq/groups/418543/hr/1630509376/name/vmachinehammond.jpg

 

 

[MonksDream]

Gorgeous work!

[Tonysounds]

No kidding! THAT IS B-Utiful!

[Tonysounds]

Love the XV88 underneath too.

[Joe Muscara]

The two manual one looks almost portable.

[Jim Alfredson]

God, that's a lot of work... why not just get a real B3? Are you really going to be hauling that thing around? The real deal will sound better than the B4, that's for sure.

 

Nitpick:

 

Back in the days the case for the original Hammond B3 was commonly built out of walnut wood and less frequently out of cherry. For this project we opted for cherry wood and its reddish and even a bit kitschy look when painted glossy.

 

Only the older models (BC, CV, etc) were solid wood. B3s were veneer.

[Tonysounds]

Well, you know what they say, it's not the destination, it's the journey.

[wd8dky]

I wonder how much polyphony is possible with the V-Machine and B4...

 

[Joe P]

Gorgeous work all around!

 

[Gary75]

Nice furniture, but Id rather have the real thing in the living room. I won't even discuss gigs with it. I also can't see the point of real Hammond manuals used for a controller. Ridiculous weight, and the nine contacts are redundant. For me, you either adapt to the clone keybeds or move your A100.

[mate stubb]

I also can't see the point of real Hammond manuals used for a controller. Ridiculous weight, and the nine contacts are redundant. For me, you either adapt to the clone keybeds or move your A100.

 

I think both these other projects used Fatar actions - the first one in particular talks about using the same keybed as Electro.

 

My project uses real Hammond keys and key channels with that backloaded leaf spring for authentic feel, but trashes the heavy keystacks in favor of modern plunger contacts that provide about the same resistance as the real keystacks did.

 

I don't think 30 lbs is ridiculous for 1 manual with 4 sets of drawbars and everything else being authentic controls. When I want a second manual, another 15 lb piece comes along.

 

I just can't lose myself on an Electro or XK-3 keybed like I can on mine. YMMV, of course.

[Gary75]

No 30lbs is not heavy, removing the heavier parts of the manual, I'm looking forward to seeing your hybrid manual Moe. I just remember moving the complete manual assembly.

[Ian Benhamou]

Man, that wood looks worthy of being on a guitar. That is gorgeous. I want one!

[mate stubb]

No 30lbs is not heavy, removing the heavier parts of the manual, I'm looking forward to seeing your hybrid manual Moe. I just remember moving the complete manual assembly.

 

You've been around long enough to remember the thread about it, but in case you missed it, there's lots of pics here:

 

https://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2061124/1

[Gary75]

Thanks for the link, must have missed that thread or just forgotten, I'll bookmark it now.

[humannoyed]

No 30lbs is not heavy, removing the heavier parts of the manual, I'm looking forward to seeing your hybrid manual Moe. I just remember moving the complete manual assembly.

 

You've been around long enough to remember the thread about it, but in case you missed it, there's lots of pics here:

 

https://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2061124/1

 

I checked that thread and your website too Moe. You are indeed the chopmeister and a WHOLE LOT more! It's great that you decided to be so open in sharing your on going projects - thanks for that - I'm glad you found something to keep you off the streets and out of trouble. :smile:

 

 

Day

 

 

[Outkaster]

The B-4 sounds weak in the upper registers that is my problem. Like someone said. Get the real thing.

[Mark Schmieder]

How do you mean, weak in the upper registers? If anything, I was going to say it might need a little work in the lower registers? So, I think this is likely more a function of converters and the overall playback signal chain (I can't treat my room acoustics due to landlord rules, and have some untamed bass issues).

 

I just did a recording with the B4 II last weekend that made everyone really happy, where I had a very trebly/wiry sound that was yet very full, and a ballsy low register solo that's got some pretty authentic tubey grunge to it.

 

I'd just rather have a hardware organ, since it's all about tactile feel for me. Right now, I use my Prophet '08 to trigger B4 II, as it has the best semi-weighted action of any of my 61-or-larger keyboards (the Mono Evolver has slightly better feel but is too short for most organ playing).

[WheelHead]

How do you mean, weak in the upper registers? If anything, I was going to say it might need a little work in the lower registers? So, I think this is likely more a function of converters and the overall playback signal chain (I can't treat my room acoustics due to landlord rules, and have some untamed bass issues).

 

I just did a recording with the B4 II last weekend that made everyone really happy, where I had a very trebly/wiry sound that was yet very full, and a ballsy low register solo that's got some pretty authentic tubey grunge to it.

 

Of course opinions differ and is in the eye of the beholder with his rig and audio path.

 

I agree with this fully (the quote). I think the B4II DOES have the capability to sound easily sucky and requires the right cabinet and tweak and boom, you got it. Actually the upper end is stronger for playing jazz than the VB3, in my opinion, especially off scanner. The B4II can scream set up correctly. If you play any of the vintage jazz tunes like from Richard Groove you need that beepy, pipey sound. (meaning only one sound of it's capability). You also need a good audio train absolutely. I use the Fireface 800 at 96Khz.

 

The B4II going to the new Ventilator leslie sim that I own is a hoot! Just got the Ventilator. Trying next on my Apple EVB3 and VB3 - so it is possible my opinion could change with a new rotor sim to prefer something else. The drive is incredible too on the Ventilator THOUGH my opinion is a first impression and not a learned opinion yet.

 

The Ventilator right now with my first impression opinion is the best add-on piece I have bought in *years*. More than a rotor sim it improves the tone to one even more like an oiler. This I did not expect. The whole ambiance of the instrument changed for the better.

[Throbert]

http://myface.com/file/pic/gallery/38614_view.jpg

[WheelHead]

Sorry for another post. I'll get outta here.

 

I had to respond to this. Yeah, I own the Doepfer System too but lost interest in it after getting the Hamichord.

 

About the photo of the Doepfer system:

 

First off the Doepfer System is damn ugly from the back (it has no back) that you never see and you need to do something self- styled with it on the back. It is majorly top heavy and difficult to find a stand. I made one from a stock stand that fit perfect simply by welding angle on each side and it dropped in perfect being supported by the wood sides.

 

My odd view about this is that Doepfer spent a lot of time money on this with redesign after redesign and finally used, I believe, Axle Mackenrott to do the final design/ergonomics - a young guy who did an thesis in a German university on the Hammond organ they were impressed with.

 

Anyway, he got it wrong, in my opinion. The drawbars are in the wrong place to me (to repeat, I own this). The bass drawbars are in the wrong place also. The switches on the top are rather 'plastic'y'/clickey and lack the 'Fahrfernugen' and 'feel' one would expect of quality organ switches. Though I could be a bit picky on this. The dial pots are nice. It IS short and easy to handle and you can make it to drop in the top drawbar unit and upper manual. It does not have any on or off switches but is turned on by plugging in a wallwart. You power the other component by connecting the mini power plugs with a dual-female cord having one 'in' from the wallwart.

 

 

On the positive note, one person can easily carry it totally assembled. It has velocity in the keyboards to play pianos/Rhodes/Wurlies too. It is short and uses little stage area and can even be put at a right-angle to a masterkeyboard or digital piano. It is well built with aluminum not plastic. The build is precision.

 

My own personal view is they spent a lot of money on this and burned themselves out of enthusiasm to *finish* it with a back and perhaps a custom stand though I haven't looked at their website to see what upgrades are there now. I believe the controller part, the D3C was quite a task to make over a long period of time with, like I said, redesign after redesign that probably burned them out on it. Just my opinion.

[Al Coda]

... and finally used, I believe, Axle Mackenrott to do the final design/ergonomics - a young guy who did an thesis in a German university on the Hammond organ they were impressed with.

 

Keyboardplayer of the metal band Masterplan b.t.w.

 

Anyway, he got it wrong, in my opinion.

 

I think, he had no chance at all to get it right.

 

1st developement was a 5 octave waterfall keyboard incl. the bank and preset buttons.

 

2nd was the idea to combine 2 of these keyboards in a modular way.

 

3rd was the developement of the controller unit.

 

You see the dimensions (width) of one keyboard and this shows clearly, there was never enough space to place knobs, buttons and physical drawbars in the right order,- just because of the electronics under the surface and behind the drawbars.

 

It´s the modular concept which made this thing so ugly and wrong.

 

The prices:

Combining 2 keyboards and the controller, using the small accessorie-panels to buy as extras, makes this unit expensive (EUR 1.200.- AFAIK) ...

 

If Doepfer ever had in mind to release a better 2keyboard/controller unit in a better case,- this would be more expensive I fear.

 

Too much for just only such a controller (and to control shitty B4).

 

A.C.

 

[WheelHead]

... and finally used, I believe, Axle Mackenrott to do the final design/ergonomics

 

Anyway, he got it wrong, in my opinion.

 

I think, he had no chance at all to get it right.

1st developement was a 5 octave waterfall keyboard incl. the bank and preset buttons.

 

Actually, their first keyboard presented was a waterfall keyboard AND midi fadars, 2 sets of nine, not drawbars, bank and preset buttons on one 61 note keyboard.

 

There was also a fourth concept that was never made. That was the pedalboard made complete, however, there is quite a clever electronic kit PCB to make your own from 2 Fatar 13 pedalboards to create a spinet-type 25-tone pedalboard. You can also wire this and midify a wooded pedalboard but it would be a bigger project and they have another PCB that would make it easier actually, though, without the features of their pedalboard PCB.

 

2nd was the idea to combine 2 of these keyboards in a modular way.

 

Great idea why would that be an obstacle? That is also the concept of the XK3 system.

 

3rd was the development of the controller unit.

 

THIS was poorly designed. The single D3M keyboards are actually quite nice/quite excellent as individual keyboards and I have nothing to say bad about them. My remarks were about the "system". (2 keyboards, drawbar controller packaged as a dual manual single unit with wood sides)

 

 

You see the dimensions (width) of one keyboard and this shows clearly, there was never enough space to place knobs, buttons and physical drawbars in the right order,- just because of the electronics under the surface and behind the drawbars.

 

Absolutely disagree. You make PCB boards/inputs the size that will fit. Certainly with the penchant/reputation of German engineering in audio/midi products you are saying this is impossible? Come on.

 

Actually, correct positioning of controls *will* fit plus more if changed around. I have a few projects I have to finish first but I intend to *redesign* my D3C.(drawbar controller top module)

 

The D3C (drawbar controller/preset/knobs on top) is the key to make the *system* work. The buttons are on the *wrong* side also (preset/bank). These correspond with a nice idea to replace the reversed vintage organ preset keys. (on the left - theirs is on the right)

 

It´s the modular concept which made this thing so ugly and wrong.

 

Not in my opinion. It was great concept! They simply put the controls in the wrong spot on the D3C to repeat. The D3M keyboards are great! Bad design for the D3C. To make this a *system*, the top D3C is the *key* that covers all other controls. (including the top keyboard covers the controls for the single D3M bottom keyboard since they are not needed - buttons)

 

If Doepfer ever had in mind to release a better 2keyboard/controller unit in a better case,- this would be more expensive I fear.

 

"Better" would simply be a correctly designed D3C, imo.

 

Too much for just only such a controller (and to control shitty B4).

 

"shitty B4"? Thats your opinion. What ***is*** "shitty", imo, is the **design** of the D3C without a doubt in my mind of controller locations. In fact, it is downright stupid, in my view.

 

This can also control the EVB3, VB3 and even a Hammond Suzuki XM-2 + more, through an Event Processor box (cigarette pack size) may be required or Midi-ox in the host computer. Easy.