Keith Jarrett: on classical musicians and improvisation

[Jazz+]

I just read an interview with Keith Jarrett:

 

As Jarrett sees it, moving from the interpretation based world of classical music to the improvisational one of jazz requires a radical shift that shakes the foundations of self. When he performed a lot of Mozart in the 80's, he says "I wasn't playing anything other than Mozart. I had to become another person." And, he adds, "to teach a classical musician to improvise is almost more impossible than to teach an accountant or plumber to improvise."

 

"I once had a conversation with Vladimir Ashkenazy. We were on a cruise with the English Chamber Orchestra and I gave him a tape with some recent improvisations. When he had listened to it he said, 'How do you play all the right notes?' I said, "No, you see they just become the right notes by virtue of their environment.' Then he said 'I'd love to be able to improvise but I know I'd need so much time to get into the right headspace to do that.' Of course he didn't use the word 'headspace.' But he knew he'd have to shut everything down. From where they are you can't get to the improvisation and have it be you, because you've been trained outside of yourself."

[SK]

And many jazz players don't have the mindset to become classical musicians. As a general rule of thumb, Jarrett's right. But not always, of course.

 

My sister's a fantastic opera singer, and I did a concert with her a couple years ago. She couldn't believe I could improvise on the music we did - she had no clue, while I was amazed she could sing any pitch exactly off the paper, regardless of what was going on around her. Her voice is a perfectly trained instrument, yet she doesn't get improvisation.

 

But there are a number of classical players who get it - among many others, Enrico Pieranunzi comes to mind, and Carlo here too. And many of the great jazz players have performed classical music.

 

Still, many stay in their box and can't make the leap - it's a totally different language requiring different instincts. The conditioning required is also a simple matter of exposure to different music and adjusting one's attitude.

 

 

 

 

 

[mate stubb]

True. Which is why I thank goodness that Ray Manzarek was around to ease my transition.

 

For some reason, I could grok his style coming from classical. If I had been required to play the blues right off the bat, it would have been pretty ghastly.

[iLaw]

... "I once had a conversation with Vladimir Ashkenazy...

Wouldn't it be interesting to read Ashkenazy's recollection of the same conversation?

 

When jazzers and classical players get into this debate (about every two months around here) it's important to keep two issues separate: (1) improvisational ability, and (2) familiarity with the idiom. Many classical keyboard players are capable of improvising fluently in idioms that they know well. I'm not talking Bach and Mozart here, just the typical church organist down the street. Likewise, many fluent jazz improvisers have difficulty transposing those skills to an unfamiliar idiom.

 

When the first musicians arrive from the Proxima Centauri system looking to pick up new improvisational talent, I expect that Keith Jarrett will be able to hold his own. The rest of us? No matter how well we do on "Giant Steps," I suspect that our lack of familiarity with Centaurian idioms will make us the laughing stock of their corner of the galaxy.

 

Larry.

[Outkaster]

Larry it depends on what you are good at.

[Synthoid]

When the first musicians arrive from the Proxima Centauri system looking to pick up new improvisational talent, I expect that Keith Jarrett will be able to hold his own. The rest of us? No matter how well we do on "Giant Steps," I suspect that our lack of familiarity with Centaurian idioms will make us the laughing stock of their corner of the galaxy.

 

 

[DanL]

Many years ago I was friends with a girl who was an amazing classical player. She was astounded that I could sit down at the piano and just play what was in my head. I was astounded that she could sight read what appeared to be fly crap on paper.

 

I know another woman who is not only a great classical piano player, but an accomplished jazz and rock bassist, so she can do both.

[kad]

My sister's a fantastic opera singer, and I did a concert with her a couple years ago. She couldn't believe I could improvise on the music we did - she had no clue, while I was amazed she could sing any pitch exactly off the paper, regardless of what was going on around her. Her voice is a perfectly trained instrument, yet she doesn't get improvisation.

 

Steve - do you happen to have a recording of that concert? I would love to hear it! Regarding singers who can sight read perfectly from paper, here is a story that amazes me... I'm a huge fan of The Singers Unlimited. I once read an interview with Gene Puerling where he said Bonnie Herman's sight reading was so good that sometimes she would not even look at the chart until the tape was rolling! I became friends with Len Dresslar several years before he passed away. I once asked him how much they typically rehearsed Gene's charts before they went to the studio. The answer: they didn't! They could all read THAT well.

[Floyd Tatum]

Many jazz musicians studied classical before they played jazz. And can play written music, or improvise.

 

It's like a spectrum - at one end, you've got the classical players who cannot improvise, then in the middle you've got guys who can do both, and at the other end, guys who can improvise, and play by ear, but can't read.

 

Still, I guess KJ's right, there is a certain kind of player that can't improvise, and have no interest in it.

[SK]

Steve - do you happen to have a recording of that concert?

kad, I don't. We regretted not recording it and planned another concert to record later that got snowed out. She lives a thousand miles away, but it's something we both want to do. She's worked with a lot of people like Placido Domingo, and studied with Aaron Copland when she was very young.

 

We rehearsed once before our concert, a mixture of the music she does and mine. When she sight read a couple of non-operatic tunes that I wanted to do, she pointed out that when I transposed a song to a better key for her, she had to also transpose it in her head, since her voice was trained to perfectly hit the notes on the page.

[AdamF]

The biggest difference that I see is between composers and performers. Improvisers, to me, are both. I'll have to find the exact quote, but Leonard Bernstein said that composing is nothing other than finding the right note for the job.

 

Performers have the job of communicating those notes. Put the two together and I would say that's what improvising is all about, right? I'm not saying one side's better than the other, and considering the examples everyone has given, there are mind blowing musicians on the far end of each side.

 

As for Keith Jarrett's quote, he could not have chosen a more appropriate composer for what he had to say. I don't find it hard to believe that playing nothing but Mozart would help do anything BUT play more Mozart--it wouldn't take much to work yourself into a corner (a DEEP corner).

 

Also, classically trained musicians of today might lack in improvising, but in the pre-piano days, improvisation was very important if you were a keyboardist (harpsichord or organ, for example) or if you had to accompany somone. Organs in particular were variously equipped and often in some state of repair. I guess that's why organists have the reputation for improvising--although I should say that even today improv's part of the training.

[alby]

Many jazz musicians studied classical before they played jazz. And can play written music, or improvise.

 

It's like a spectrum - at one end, you've got the classical players who cannot improvise, then in the middle you've got guys who can do both, and at the other end, guys who can improvise, and play by ear, but can't read.

 

Still, I guess KJ's right, there is a certain kind of player that can't improvise, and have no interest in it.

 

I was classically trained before I ventured into Jazz. I can now play jazz good enough to get paid. But learning was a struggle for me. I had to forget about classical, and just listen to Jazz all the time. For me it was like learning to play another instrument. (Like years of work.)

 

It seems a little easier for classical percussionist to go to Jazz. Probably months more than years.

 

alby

[iLaw]

... I had to forget about classical, and just listen to Jazz all the time. For me it was like learning to play another instrument. (Like years of work.) ...

This is it exactly. Every musical idiom has its own language and conventions, including interpretation and improvization, that require years to master.

 

Somewhere out there alby has a Chinese doppelgänger who is saying "I had to forget about jiangnan sizhu, and just listen to klezmer all the time. For me it was like learning to play another instrument ..."

 

Larry.

[J. Dan]

Aliens, Dopplegängers... iLaw, I would guess you're a very unique individual....

[Hipgnosis]

Hi,

 

This is lovely ... this is great ... and it's about time that it gets seen ...

 

Improvisation is not about "technique" ... it's about feeling what's right there in front of you ... and one day this note sounds ... darkgreen ... and tomorrow it sounds lightgreen ... and gets played like it.

 

In a way, I really think that the biggest problem with classical music today, is that it is too "structured" based on concepts that created music in the past ... as exemplified by other composers. In an academic realm, this would mean that jazz would defy the conditions and definitions of most music ... and Keith's (like some other ECM artists, btw) would definitly be a problem ... it's really hard to break down a Miles Davis ... specially when he tells you ... you take your turn and then I take mine and then Joe takes his ... and then we join together ... which is never going to be the same twice in a row. Classical music is "composed" ... rather has been composed and scripted and studied to the point where ... the chance of creating another big name composer ... will be dead soon ... unless they make room for the likes of Keith Jarrett, Egberto Gismonti, Vangelis, Mike Oldfield, Klaus Schulze and even Tangerine Dream ... many of these folks might consider and use some classical concepts, but all in all ... they are more in tune with their own "vibe" than otherwise ... or as Tim Leary says in AshRaTempel's 7UP ... "to get into the vibes of the music" ... in a way classical training is getting into the vibes of each note ... and has less to do with the creation of them itself.

 

I often call this ... "now" ... and "later" ... and classical is "later" ... way after the fact.

 

Lost in this, is the assumption that many composers in history were not free form artists ... in fact, though not written, it is extremely likely that Mozart was an exceptional free-form'ist and that the only thing that was "remembered" that could be written down on a staff, were the pieces that ... could be written ... you can't write down "feelings" on a staff too well ... even Salieri had a hard time with it!

 

In a way, this is sad ... even after all the popular and experimental music out there, to only "see" one kind of music ... shows the real limitations of "classical music" ...

 

I still think that Oldfield, Vangelis, Jarret, Gismonti ... and the like are the composers that will be best remembered 100 years from now as "classical" ... by that time their free forms will have been broken down into miniscule ... grains of sand!

[AdamF]

I found my Leonard Bernstein quote:

 

"Form is only an empty word, a shell, without this gift of inevitability; a composer can write a string of perfectly molded sonata-allegro movements, with every rule obeyed, and still suffer from bad form. Beethoven broke all the rules, and turned out pieces of breath-taking rightness. Rightnessthats the word! When you get the feeling that whatever note succeeds the last is the only possible note that can rightly happen at that instant, in that context, chances are youre listening to Beethoven." (p. 29 The Joy of Music)

 

This was obviously taken from a discussion about Beethoven, but I don't think that Bernstein would disagree with replacing Beethoven's name with, let's say, Miles Davis for example. What made me remember this quote when thinking about this topic was the last sentencespecifically the "in that context" line. That's what got me thinking about improvisation.

 

The other thing I'm reminded of applies to Mozartthe statement "...a composer can write a string of perfectly molded sonata-allegro movements, with every rule obeyed, and still suffer from bad form." Mozart was guilty of this, though not all of the time, on more than a couple occasions.

[GovernorSilver]

The biggest difference that I see is between composers and performers. Improvisers, to me, are both.

 

Makes sense to me. If you find a classical musician who cannot improvise, it is because he/she has not put in any time/effort into composing and probably has dedicated his/her musical time to playing other people's compositions instead of his/her own.

 

I knew a classical guitarist who could improvise. It's probably because his major at music school was in composition. Composing music probably fires up a different part of your brain compared to intepreting someone else's work.

 

Some great improvisers recognized that improvisation can be instant composition and put a lot of effort into analyzing the methods of the great composers.

[iLaw]

Dare I say this in this company?

 

Most of the skilled improvisors I have known over the years, in various musical idioms, are remarkably facile at stringing together set pieces. They are like jugglers who are able to piece together rehearsed/ingrained moves into a fluid, entertaining, and often imaginative longer group.

 

This is a talent, don't get me wrong. And anyone who has ever tried to juggle or improvise (I assume we can put Vladimir Ashkenazy in here) can attest to the difficulty. But I hesitate to call it composition in the same sense of the word as we use to describe, say, a Prokofiev piano concerto.

 

Flame on ...

 

Larry.

[GovernorSilver]

Dare I say this in this company?

 

Most of the skilled improvisors I have known over the years, in various musical idioms, are remarkably facile at stringing together set pieces. They are like jugglers who are able to piece together rehearsed/ingrained moves into a fluid, entertaining, and often imaginative longer group.

 

This is a talent, don't get me wrong. And anyone who has ever tried to juggle or improvise (I assume we can put Vladimir Ashkenazy in here) can attest to the difficulty. But I hesitate to call it composition in the same sense of the word as we use to describe, say, a Prokofiev piano concerto.

 

Flame on ...

 

Larry.

 

The point Adam was trying to make was that when you improvise you compose something and if you have never tried to create music of your own, you're going to have a hard time improvising.

[iLaw]

... The point Adam was trying to make was that when you improvise you compose something and if you have never tried to create music of your own, you're going to have a hard time improvising.

Sure. I think I understand both you and Adam. The point I'm trying to make is that, in my opinion, when most improvisers improvise, they are not composing. At least not in the same sense of the word as we would use to describe the process that a composer goes through when creating a work. Rather, they are collaging on-the-fly the bits and pieces that they have worked out over years. As I said before, improvising is a useful skill, I just wince a bit describing it as composing.

 

Larry

[GovernorSilver]

... The point Adam was trying to make was that when you improvise you compose something and if you have never tried to create music of your own, you're going to have a hard time improvising.

Sure. I think I understand both you and Adam. The point I'm trying to make is that, in my opinion, when most improvisers improvise, they are not composing. At least not in the same sense of the word as we would use to describe the process that a composer goes through when creating a work. Rather, they are collaging on-the-fly the bits and pieces that they have worked out over years. As I said before, improvising is a useful skill, I just wince a bit describing it as composing.

 

Larry

 

Composers have been known to reuse bits of their earlier works when creating new ones or even lift bits from other composers' works - especially soundtrack composers. You raise a legitimate point about the nature of improvisation, but it's not really applicable to the central point: if you want to improvise, you gotta be willing to create.

 

There, I used "create" instead of "compose".

[Cygnus64]

Classical music is "composed" ... rather has been composed and scripted and studied to the point where ... the chance of creating another big name composer ... will be dead soon ...

 

300+ years of music history would disagree with you.

 

Interesting fact: If you attend a symphony concert in the US, the century from which the highest number of pieces that are performed? The 20th.

 

People think of classical composers as the cats that had powdered wigs. That's a really small part of the symphonic repertoire, most of them were pretty recent. When Stravinsky died, the Beatles had already broken up! Ravel died 2 years before "The Wizard of Oz", Copland could have watched "Melrose Place" and "Seinfeld". Walton probably watched "The Cosby Show" with his friends Barber and Menotti, Britten probably watched "All in the Family". Rodrigo came to one of my gigs! 1990 in Berlin, he was still kickin.

 

When put in that perspective, it really shows that classical music isnt the stuff of ancient museums and funny pants, it's really quite recent. It's not going anywhere.

[timwat]

OTOH, MC Hammer - now that's the stuff of ancient museums and funny pants.

[GovernorSilver]

Copland could have watched "Melrose Place" and "Seinfeld".

 

You probably have a far more extensive orchestral background than I do, but I did put in enough time in community orchestra to be annoyed at Copland for confusing violin with viola parts (dude, treble clef for viola??? WTF???) and to have a greater appreciation for Leonard Bernstein, yet another 20th century composer.

[timwat]

On a more OT note, my current instructor is repeatedly encouraging us to push the envelope - to risk and stretch, rather than just regurgitate licks, scales and 'set pieces'. He recently told us some stories of his years in NY that some guys, if they sensed you had some favorite thing you were going to try and work into your solo, they'd intentionally switch things up to screw up your little set piece - to force you to go beyond the safety net.

[nmcq]

In college, before moving to jazz studies full-time, one of my classical piano teachers -- a professor and incredible classical player who could sight read 3-part inventions with half his brain tied behind his back -- overheard me improvising, just fooling around before our session together, and gasped, "Wow, how I wish I could do that."

 

I learned a whole lot from him that day.

 

Neil

 

[ProfD]

I didn't know KJ was EF Hutton. Everyone has a right to their opinion but some aren't worth listening to and/or repeating.

 

Music is a beautiful thing. It can be expressed in different ways with varying levels of talent. That is worth repeating.

[Hipgnosis]

Hi,

 

Sometimes "classical music" is ... well ... it depends where you are ... if you turn on the radio here in Portland, it's "standards" in classical music, old blue note style jazz (traditional) and top ten of all kinds.

 

In Santa Barbara we had a much wider variety.

 

I know that the Bay Area had the widest variety I ever heard, next to London and Paris ... though I never hear NY ...

 

All in all, even in this area, their big jazz festival would not even know what to do with a Keith Jarrett. I don't think they have ever had a single ECM jazz artist ... for example ... which tends to limit the styles and tastes all around.

 

I just think that "jazz" and "rock" will eventually add another dimention to music that will one day be thought of as "classical".

[Cygnus64]

In college, before moving to jazz studies full-time, one of my classical piano teachers -- a professor and incredible classical player who could sight read 3-part inventions with half his brain tied behind his back -- overheard me improvising, just fooling around before our session together, and gasped, "Wow, how I wish I could do that."

 

I learned a whole lot from him that day.

 

Neil

 

As a classical musician, here's my take on the "Classical people and improvising thang":

 

Most can't do it because they HAVEN'T done it. They have never had a reason, and most have never had a desire. I cant speak Russian, fly a plane or build an engine. If those were things I WANTED to do, I would probably be doing them.

 

Its a language just like any other language. Most people can learn another language, but they usually have to have a need. In classical, we have no need to do it, and few have a desire.

[iLaw]

A conversation on improvisation that I would have liked to read would have been between Keith Jarrett and Lucas Foss. My hunch is that they would have agreed on many things. Better yet, KJ sitting in with Foss's Improvisation Chamber Ensemble.

 

But, not to be. Herr Foss is no longer with us.

 

Larry.