A rant on music making

[Joe Muscara]

Even though I don't do it full time, I write songs as a hobby. I write them for my band primarily, but I might write one for a full-time musician. Is that wrong because I'm taking a spot a full-time songwriter could use?

[stepay]

Even though I don't do it full time, I write songs as a hobby. I write them for my band primarily, but I might write one for a full-time musician. Is that wrong because I'm taking a spot a full-time songwriter could use?

 

No it isn't. That is definitely fair game. Here in the United States we are blessed with financial opportunities and freedoms that allow us to work part time or full-time or full-time plus moonlighting, whatever. If you are good enough at anything so that someone wants to pay you for it, then full speed ahead brother!

[keysplease]

In my opinion, part-time musicians aren't always taking money from the pockets of full-timers.

 

a. Those of us with day jobs CAN'T play 4 weekends per month (especially with families). So, we are leaving many gigs open to those trying to make it full time.

 

b. If there were no 'cheap' bands available, many, many bars would have NO live entertainment at all, or they would Karaoke; they wouldn't double or triple the amount they pay and hire full timers.

 

c. Who says weekend players aren't working full-time hours? playing 2 days each week, formally rehearsing one day each week, praticing at home/repairing equipment 5 to 7 days a week?

 

d. I know a pediatric psychiatrist who works 3 days per week -- a dentist who works 3-4 days, etc. Are they ruining their respective professions? No...they are so good that they earn what they need working a few days each week.

 

e. The last club I played auditions bands. If you're good (in the owners eyes)-- you play. If you suck, you don't. She doesn't care if you full time, half time, double time, whatever. She pays the same, too (and she pays well for this area).

 

f. I love all of you working full time - good luck, and keep on working! Just don't think that

[Kekemapa]

It is not wrong. It cannot be.

It's nature.

La nature.

In raw terms, look at what happens if two animals are arguing over some kill - another one swoops in and plunders the lot. But that's not entirely what i mean - there's another angle too - just one? you ask : LOL

 

Although a bit of a "Jack of all trades" (myself), i do have unique qualities - we all do - why shouldn't we each have a right to share them?!

 

I had a break of several years when i hit a wall in my music making.

I lost the love in my life and just had to fall silent for a while - to listen a bit more and a bit harder. I guess i had a bit of growing to do.

Sometimes it's good to stand back a bit instead of proceeding to hurl oneself against a wall - particularly walls steeped in envy and what might have been if i had focused more on the music and sacrificed more and been given more of a break etc... if if if if onlys...

 

I soon came to feel content with the thought that if in all the rest of my days my singing voice was only heard by wild animals in the mountains and/or the cat in the kitchen as i made a cup of tea then that would be fine! And it would still be alright to me if i never wrote another song again - although now, with this new phase, the new keyboard might then feel like a real burden if i didn't do something with it.

I'm glad i was able to really experience that contentment and to appreciate just being without all the having to do and "succeed" etc.

We all need to make a living of course, but then the muse in music is a capricious creature in my experience.

 

This year I'm up for the work again. I want to see what i can do - or perhaps let's ay i want to just do. I want to make friends with the new keyboard and have some fun with it if i can. My main fear is that i will feel lonely doing it all on my own. But i'm not alone. I'm really not. Although writing music won't be the 100% focus of my life, it will be something that i daily apply myself to. I'd like to record an album - some of my old songs and some new, "just because". If more unfolds then i'll cross that bridge when i come to it.

 

I have talent but then there is a lot of talent out there that is not widely exhibited. There's nothing wrong with that. As long as these people aren't miserable.

There are a gazillion fabulous songs out there to be sung too - why write more? Well, "just because" and because we are all stars that have a right to twinkle.

So Mozart wrote that starry tune before me - he beat me to it. Never mind. I've got my own unique twinkle. I'm quite content with it.

 

Joe - i think everyone should have a go at twinkling their twinkle!

It's fair enough you share yours with other musicians, occasional thing or not.

Valid point!

 

I fully intend to relax at my keyboard on a regular basis and enjoy myself!

(It's the manual that has me a little concerned at the moment. A page or two a day or so... hopefully they will marry).

 

[stepay]

In my opinion, part-time musicians aren't always taking money from the pockets of full-timers.

 

a. Those of us with day jobs CAN'T play 4 weekends per month (especially with families). So, we are leaving many gigs open to those trying to make it full time.

 

b. If there were no 'cheap' bands available, many, many bars would have NO live entertainment at all, or they would Karaoke; they wouldn't double or triple the amount they pay and hire full timers.

 

c. Who says weekend players aren't working full-time hours? playing 2 days each week, formally rehearsing one day each week, praticing at home/repairing equipment 5 to 7 days a week?

 

d. I know a pediatric psychiatrist who works 3 days per week -- a dentist who works 3-4 days, etc. Are they ruining their respective professions? No...they are so good that they earn what they need working a few days each week.

 

e. The last club I played auditions bands. If you're good (in the owners eyes)-- you play. If you suck, you don't. She doesn't care if you full time, half time, double time, whatever. She pays the same, too (and she pays well for this area).

 

f. I love all of you working full time - good luck, and keep on working! Just don't think that

 

Keysplease,

 

You stopped your "F" a little short! (That's what she said).

 

[ITGITC]

Sometimes it's good to stand back a bit instead of proceeding to hurl oneself against a wall...

 

Yeah.

 

Very cool sentiment.

 

If it's OK with you, I will take that, put it in my pocket, and carry it with me for awhile.

 

Brothers and Sisters of the forum...

 

Welcome to the weekend.

 

Is There Gas in the Car?

 

 

 

 

 

[stepay]

Sometimes it's good to stand back a bit instead of proceeding to hurl oneself against a wall...

 

Brothers and Sisters of the forum...

 

Welcome to the weekend.

 

Tom,

 

You making some veiled slam at those who only play on the weekends?

[Garrafon]

Wow. I didn't open this thread for a while because it got boring. Now it has taken a complete 360.

 

I am completely amazed that someone would want all competition in their field to step away so their path to the top can be easy. Since when is anything in life easy? What happened to the old Smith and Barney Adage "Success is something you earn".

 

If you want to be the best at something you work harder than everyone and make sure your product is worthy of a higher price.

 

My main gig (yes I too am a weekend warrior - and proud of it) is software consulting. There are lot of college students and young kids who can undercut our services by 500%. Do we try to stop them? No way. Our clients know we are reliable, our software is state-of-the-art and we will be there with them in the long run. Of course there are small mom and pop businesses whose only concern is getting the work done the cheapest. For some of them this is sufficient. Why would a local florist shop pay $1 million for a web site? they wouldnt. We dont want the local florist business. We want Fortune 500 companies.

 

If the full time pros value themselves they should not be competing for spots in the local area pubs. They should be aspiring to the best venues possible. They should not be worried about how much the weekend warriors get paid entertaining the locals while they shoot pool.

 

+1000 My sentiments exactly!!!!!

[Sandy Hemenway]

Honestly, while I don't agree with the general anti-weekend warrior sentiment, I can at least understand the philisophical position.

 

Consider the minimum wage. Why do we need a min-wage, if the market is good at setting wages through competition? The answer is that the market FAILS to set "reasonable" wages, if/when there actually isn't any competition. Specifically, in entry-level "low skill" or "no skill" jobs, there is ZERO competition. It's not in the interest of ANY business owner to raise the wages for no-skill jobs -- which is why 10 years after the last min-wage increase, there are still entry level jobs out there that are still paying $5.15 an hour. Mind you, "some" businesses will raise salaries across the board - but in general terms, for low-skill jobs, the guy paying the LEAST sets the market price, because he's gonna be making the most profits, (and/or setting the lowest prices), if he's got the lowest labor costs.

 

I don't believe this is generally true for musicians. While I don't deny that it is "possible" for hacks that have little or no skill be able to get jobs -- I do not believe it is common, or widespread enough to truly be hurting the talented musician.

 

While you don't need training, a degree or certification to be a musician or play in a band, my experience over the years tells me that the vast majority of bands/musicians that can SUSTAIN gigs, do so because they have a minimum competency level. Mind you, the quality of the club, owner, and competition in a given area can impact this significantly. There are tone-deaf owners, who don't care about the music, they just care about bodies - and if you've got the bodies, you get gigs.

 

The worst part of the music industry/profession, (IMO), is not the weekend warriors, but the reality that marketing skills are in large part MORE important than talent or ability at actually creating music. I'm sure that there are many, many talented bands and artists out there who don't get gigs because they are simply lousy at marketing themselves. To a large degree, I'm one of them. I wish it weren't true, but it is. But it's not the "fault" of the weekend warrior.

[Dave Horne]

I am completely amazed that someone would want all competition in their field to step away so their path to the top can be easy.

 

When I first joined the USMA Band (West Point, NY) the local musician's union would turn in any military musician caught playing 'private' jobs to their Commander. We were not permitted to compete with the locals. This was a federal law I believe pushed through by the musician's union. Their reasoning - there was a very high concentration of first rate musicians in the Band and that put the local musicians at a disadvantage. We were discriminated against. (The law has since changed.) You could be a civilian plumber and still play music in your free time but as a military musician (at that time) you could not. (I would have been allowed to moonlight as a plumber however.)

 

I remember visiting a 'Congressmobile' that was parked in my area. The local congressman would allow his constituents to speak with him without an appointment. (The Congressman at that time was Benjamin Gilman.) I spoke with the good congressman and explained my situation. His response, you already have a job, why do you want another? The concept of being allowed to pick up extra money in your free time was foreign to him.

 

 

[cnegrad]

Sandy,

 

You bring up lots of issues:

 

1) There are too many "musicians" willing to lowball on price. Some are even willing to work for free. This hurts all musicians everyhere, since it completely devalues our work. Therefore how can the market decide what's "fair" if some idiots are willing to lowball?

 

2) I'll have to disgaree with you when you say the "hacks" don't work much. They most certainly do. Hence our problem with #1.

 

3) Where does it leave us if most audiences & club owners can't tell the difference between "hacks" and pros?

 

As Tom said, none of this is any skin off my back. I just live my life and do my best work both in performance and marketing. Ultimately *I* am the only person responsible for my success or failure.

 

 

[Garrafon]

Sandy,

 

You bring up lots of issues:

 

1) There are too many "musicians" willing to lowball on price. Some are even willing to work for free. This hurts all musicians everyhere, since it completely devalues our work. Therefore how can the market decide what's "fair" if some idiots are willing to lowball?

 

2) I'll have to disgaree with you when you say the "hacks" don't work much. They most certainly do. Hence our problem with #1.

 

3) Where does it leave us if most audiences & club owners can't tell the difference between "hacks" and pros?

 

As Tom said, none of this is any skin off my back. I just live my life and do my best work both in performance and marketing. Ultimately *I* am the only person responsible for my success or failure.

 

 

(1) As to your point #1, that IS the market setting the price.

(2) As to point #2, there certainly are a lot of hacks getting gigs. While it amazes me that they get hired, they do. What is even more amazing is that, very often, the club's customers LIKE these hacks. Let's face it folks, it's all dollars and cents here. The clubs are out to make money. How do they do that? Bring in as many people as they can and sell them drinks and food. If the lousiest musician in the world brings in 300 paying customers, then that musician will beat out the perfect technique using, sightreading, theory expert who may be a technically better player who only brings in 10 people. Unfortunately, the ultimate clientelle (club goers) are not quite as musically sophisticated as we would like them to be. But, it is what it is.

 

(3) As to your point #3, see my point #2. They are inextricably intertwined and THIS is the cause of the problem. The simple fact is that club owners and club goers do not value "musicianship" as much as many musicians would like to be valued - they just don't get it or appreciate it....they don't care that much.

[ProfD]

I am getting the distinct feeling though that this may be my last appearance here at this forum. It's been fun, but I am incompatible with the general feeling here on this forum.

 

Darren, I think there is much to be learned as a musician away from the instruments in sticking around on this forum.

 

Plenty of knowlegeable cats along with varying opinions thrown in the mix which constitute a decent soup.

 

Just keep in mind that keyboard players have a weird sense of humor. Don't take it personally.

[ITGITC]

Just keep in mind that keyboard players have a weird sense of humor. Don't take it personally.

 

Oh YEAH?

 

And just whats does U means by thats?

 

Hey PD... PULL MY FINGER. :grin:

 

 

 

 

 

[cnegrad]

garrafon,

(1) As to your point #1, that IS the market setting the price.

Oh? And how is working for low or no money fair and reasonable?

If the lousiest musician in the world brings in 300 paying customers, then that musician will beat out the perfect technique using, sightreading, theory expert who may be a technically better player who only brings in 10 people.

What a ridiculous statement! If you're going to compare apples to apples, then you'd have to compare "the lousiest musician in the world bringing in 300 paying customers" to a great musician who's an equally entertaining performer that might bring even more customers. Why did you go for for the negative when you compared him to "theory expert who may be a technically better player who only brings in 10 people"?

[ProfD]

 

Oh YEAH?

 

And just whats does U means by thats?

 

Hey PD... PULL MY FINGER. :grin:

 

Well, let's see. You have been sitting on your hands to keep them warm while pining for a PC1se or Nord Stage.

 

So, the question is, have you washed them?

 

If not, I'll pass on pulling your finger. Bada bing!

 

 

[Mr. Nightime]

I've been sitting here reading the whole weekend warrior/professional discussion.

 

I am a Weekend Warrior, and damn proud of it! My band commands the top dollar in our area, and we don't play for less. None of us NEED the money, but we feel we're worth it.

 

In my younger days, my entire living was music. I spent 8 years on the road, averaging 330 nights a year, and 50,000 miles a year. Then another 10 years before I got a day job and switched to weekends. I challenge anyone to say that I am anything but a professional just because I decided that the needs of my family and the need for health coverage required that I obtain a day job, and relegate the music to part time. And that is how I approach the business end of my playing, as a part time job. Like others, my equipment has paid for itself with my gig money.

 

So to all you Weekend Warriors out there that aspire to play great music and conduct themselves in a professional manner, a tip of the beer glass to you. You deserve every bit as much respect as those that play full time. If the music's good, who cares?

 

[ITGITC]

 

Oh YEAH?

 

And just whats does U means by thats?

 

Hey PD... PULL MY FINGER. :grin:

 

Well, let's see. You have been sitting on your hands to keep them warm while pining for a PC1se or Nord Stage.

 

So, the question is, have you washed them?

 

If not, I'll pass on pulling your finger. Bada bing!

 

 

Do you ever watch MONK?

 

http://www.usanetwork.com/series/monk/webisodes/images/monk-book.jpg

 

I'm worse.

 

OK. Maybe not. But whenever I'm at a public restaurant and wash my hands (as I often do), I feel compelled to open the door with a paper towel. Can you imagine the little beasties that make their home on the handle of a bathroom door at Denny's?

 

And to top that, [font:Comic Sans MS]Women[/font] have three to four times the number of bacteria in, on and around their desks, phones, computers, keyboards, drawers and personal items as men do. KLONK FOR THE STORY.

 

It doesn't really matter. If those li'l bastid cold viruses want to getcha... they will.

 

Anyway... I figure that sitting on my hands is better than trying to keep them warm like I did in grammer school - holding them under my armpits.

 

 

http://img154.exs.cx/img154/2079/superstar5tr.jpg

 

 

 

 

[linwood]

...and Mr. Nightime, anyone who's played gigs with Jimmy Rogers is a pro in my book! Case closed.

[K K]

For those who don't feel like reading the whole thread, here's a complete summary of this whole topic : there are different kinds of balls.

 

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40013000/jpg/_40013649_pile_balls270.jpg

 

http://www.legobilliards.com.cn/pool_table_product/Balls/snooker_ball/003.jpg

 

http://www.supercoolstuff.com/items/balls/pics/BL257.jpg

[Garrafon]

garrafon,

If the lousiest musician in the world brings in 300 paying customers, then that musician will beat out the perfect technique using, sightreading, theory expert who may be a technically better player who only brings in 10 people.

What a ridiculous statement! If you're going to compare apples to apples, then you'd have to compare "the lousiest musician in the world bringing in 300 paying customers" to a great musician who's an equally entertaining performer that might bring even more customers. Why did you go for for the negative when you compared him to "theory expert who may be a technically better player who only brings in 10 people"?

 

I think you are missing the point. You have to look at the bottom line dollars. Most club owners don't care about the quality provided they are making money. If, as you suggest, there is an "equally entertaining performer that might bring even more customers," then that entertainer should be able to command a higher price. Why? Because he/she can bring more value to the club owner. Unfortunately, in many cases in the "real world" one's "value" as a musician is not determined by the quality of musicianship, but by how much money you can bring the club owner. I'm not saying it should be that way or that I like it that way (I don't), but it IS that way. If you can create value for the club owner, you can create value as a musician. It is worthwhile for a club owner to pay more to a musician who can help the club owner to make more money. Conversely, why pay a musician a lot of money (even if he/she is the greatest musician in the world) if that musician does not bring in enough people to break even for the night? Basic accounting.

[cnegrad]

Ok, fair enough. But the problem is getting one's foot in the door. The club owner is often reluctant to try a higher priced musician even with promises of more profit. It's a simple as, "But these guys will work for just drinks, and you want me to pay you how much?"

[Garrafon]

I fully agree with you that it is a problem...a very real problem. I get that same thing all the time. I wish I had a good answer.

 

Believe me, as a "weekend warrior" I don't like working for peanuts. I value my own skills more than that and my band will not play below a certain amount. We refuse "door only" gigs. We have set standards and we stick to them. Sometimes that means turning away gigs.

 

The way we work around the issue presented by you is we sometimes take a reduced fee the first gig at a new club and, if people turn out and the owner has a good night, he agrees to higher as back the next time at our regular (or even inflated) fee. That way it is shared risk.

[stepay]

cnegrad,

 

Not sure what bands are doing in your area, but trust me, no bands in Columbus play regularly for free or just for drinks. Once in a while, bands will do freebie gigs (mine did), but only for a charitable cause or as an "audition" to get into a club for another real paying gig. No way are there tons of bands out there just playing for peanuts or nothing that are taking away money from professionals. Here in Columbus, there are some clubs that will pay just $200 for a band. That's it. My former band played a couple of these gigs just to add venues to our resume, but once we started getting gigs in the $350-$600 venues, we never again played at those lower-level venues again. No way those lower level venues could pay enough to get a full-time band in there, and even at the $600 places, my take was only $150. A full-time guy would have to play 20 times a month at that price just to make $36,000. And trust me, getting $600 was not undercutting a full-timer. Those venues can't pay more than that. If a full-timer is constantly playing at the venues my band played in (we played in SOME top-notch places that full-time pros play in like Fat Fish Blue in Cleveland and the Thirsty Ear Tavern, but most were neighborhood bars and restaurants), then maybe they should reconsider their career path. I know if I ever decided to do music full-time that I would not be satisfied playing in anything other than top-notch well-paying venues. Bands that would accept $200 or less don't play in those places. Only really good bands do. As has been said already, weekend warrior bands definitely do get to a level where they are worth more than $200, and then they demand it.

[stepay]

I fully agree with you that it is a problem...a very real problem. I get that same thing all the time. I wish I had a good answer.

 

Believe me, as a "weekend warrior" I don't like working for peanuts. I value my own skills more than that and my band will not play below a certain amount. We refuse "door only" gigs. We have set standards and we stick to them. Sometimes that means turning away gigs.

 

The way we work around the issue presented by you is we sometimes take a reduced fee the first gig at a new club and, if people turn out and the owner has a good night, he agrees to higher as back the next time at our regular (or even inflated) fee. That way it is shared risk.

 

Yep. That's what my band used to do if we were having trouble getting into a certain club we really wanted to get into.

[K K]

The only real problem I have with this thread is about Eva. Sure you don't want to reconsider your point of view?

 

http://images.askmen.com/top-99/2006/pictures/eva-longoria-pics.jpg

[cnegrad]

Not sure what bands are doing in your area

In NY's Greenwich Village bands are indeed playing in clubs for next to nothing for the so called "prestige" of playing in those "legendary" clubs.

[stepay]

The only real problem I have with this thread is about Eva. Sure you don't want to reconsider your point of view?

 

http://images.askmen.com/top-99/2006/pictures/eva-longoria-pics.jpg

 

Cydonia,

 

I definitely do NOT want to reconsider. She just does NOT do it for me whatsoever, and that picture you provided is not even a good one of her. Terri Hatcher is much hotter. Markie Post in the 80s and early 90s was WAY better...still better today even.

[David Loving]

Here is how Marvin Stamm, a virtuoso jazz trumpet artist, describes the jazz scene in NYC clubs, and why he only plays a very few small rooms there. In part he says,

 

"The one thing that bothers me as much as anything is that many clubs no longer allow a group one that might not be very well known in New York the time or the opportunity to develop an audience in their venues. The old way of doing things was for club owners to work with artists and groups to develop a following in their clubs. Over a period of time this business practice paid off quite well. It might have taken an artist or group a few times around in a club to gather a large audience, but as the people came to know and enjoy those musicians, they looked forward to returning again and again to hear them. This practice gave a group or artist longevity in a particular club and provided audiences with a lasting opportunity to become familiar with the music these groups were presenting.

 

While working this way took an investment of time, money - and faith - it many times resulted in a significant payoff for the clubs owners. It also gave the artists a bit of a home base in New York where they could get high-profile exposure and excellent PR. It was a win/win situation for all concerned even though, in a number of instances, it was a gamble for the club owner. But that IS what business is all about, isnt it?

 

Today you find a radically different picture. Many club owners refuse to take any chances with musicians and their groups, and are rarely willing to expend an effort to develop any kind of working relationship with them. The artist is expected to assume total responsibility; rarely do you find a club willing to share any of the risk. This is a very sad situation, particularly for some of the newer groups or lesser-known artists, because it places many clubs more or less off limits except for an off-night or those times when or if the musician shows a willingness to pay to play, a practice with which I strongly disagree. The pay to play syndrome is something I dont remember occurring when I came to New York in 1966. It now seems to have been going on for a good while and exemplifies what I have been writing about."

 

Appropos this discussion, the rest is worth a look: http://www.marvinstamm.com/Cadenzas.EditionXXIV.html#New%20York%20Jazz%20clubs

 

Seems like a lot of this is going around in all facets of the business.

[cnegrad]

Same thing in the film scoring business too. Guys are doing work for free to get their foot in the door.