A rant on music making

[Legatoboy]

you took things out of context, ok excuse me! I just said that cause people would argue blues and jazz would have happened anyway even if they weren't subjugated, only reason I said that man! I don't generally go around saying that but people would argue all that suffering didn't matter in the music , it did!

not to blame you for all sorts of sh%t man!

 

lb

[ITGITC]

Actually Tom, yes I am asking that people with day jobs actually consider their fellow man a bit. If you don't have the balls to do it for a living, don't take the gigs from those of us who do have the balls to. I'm not saying stop playing, I'm just saying stop taking the gigs of those of us who are actually willing to be musicians. It is sad that the union has become such a pathetic entity, because there was a time where we wouldn't be having this discussion.

 

No worries Mr. Kanker. We can still be forum friends even though it seems that you don't have much of a grip on reality.

 

True story... Looking back, I find that most of my dillusional friends who I grew up with never made much of their lives. They still depend on Mom for a handout to keep their head above water. Unfortunately, many of these are guys, now in their fifties, who thought they were good enough musicians to pay their mortgage and raise a family by playing music full time - and nothing more.

 

I'm not making inferences here. Just stating that for those of us who have the skills to hold down a day job plus supplement our income by gigging on the weekend, the rewards of our hard work will continue to move us forward. Choosing to call oneself a professional musician should include the security in knowing that any competition that comes from the guy down the street who plays casuals will mean nothing to your own success.

 

I'm sorry that you don't see it my way, Mr. Kanker. Therefore, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

I wish you luck.

 

Tom

 

 

 

[Garrafon]

I am a part-time adjunct instructor at a college. I do it solely because I enjoy teaching and working with the kids. I already have a full time job. Am I devaluing the teaching profession by working part-time and for wages less than full-time professors? I think not. I think I am actually contributing to the teaching profession by being a valuable contributor. I bring new life, new perspective and new energy to the job. Most importantly, I am significantly furthering the students' education - the most important goal.

 

Perhaps a true professional musician would be more interested in his work product than his income. Should you be more concerned about limiting entry by competitors or furthering the goals of encouraging musicianship. Is there any legitimate reason to believe that someone who is not a f/t musician cannot be a positive contributor to music? I think not.

 

I understand and appreciate your concerns. Everyone has to make a living and nobody likes to see their income sources shared with competitors. That being said, the way to secure your income is to improve your stature - marketing, work ethic, work quality - these are the things that might make people pay more for you than someone else. Instead of attacking your competition, perhaps time is best spent improving your position vis competitors.

[Legatoboy]

I see Kanker's points and how he feels! It is actually kinda an interesting argument! Kanker I'm into it, this is actually more complicated than you may be aware of as an argument! Has philosophical ramifications, kinda a kool thing actually for everybody to argue about!

lb

[Chaso DeChaso]

Here in the US in my locale, stage workers unions demand certain people not to take certain jobs all day long. Good luck trying to cross them, saying "I'll take whatever job I want for whatever pay I want!" See how well that works.

 

Luckily, that's not how it plays out in my locale, Chaso DeChaso.

 

 

 

Somehow I was not clear. I meant to say that one cannot stroll in and take a job away from a unionized stage worker (and it probably is the same in your locale). Just trying to shed light on how many things are unionized and controlled.

[kanker.]

Choosing to call oneself a professional musician should include the security in knowing that any competition that comes from the guy down the street who plays casuals will mean nothing to your own success.

 

I'm sorry that you don't see it my way, Mr. Kanker. Therefore, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

I wish you luck.

 

Tom

 

 

Tom, competition is an interesting word - it implies some sort of level playing field. I actually probably would have much less of a problem if so many of these bands didn't water down the market on the pay side as the money isn't of importance to them. Again, it's about certain levels of standards. Why should a club hire a band of pro's for $1k if there's a group that will take the gig for $200 just for the fun of doing the gig? That's not competition. If you're in a band like the one Stepay's complaining about that can command $1k a club gig and you're not doing it full time you're nuts. If you're in a band that can only command $200, you really need to think about staying home.

 

Regardless, you're still the man.

[Chaso DeChaso]

Kanker,

 

Man are you alone on this one. That's ok though. I don't find Eva Longoria the least bit attractive and I know I'm in the huge minority there.

 

Since you've mentioned it a couple times though now, you should get over the "having the balls" to play music full time thing. Doesn't take balls at all. It's simply a career choice. I know LOTS of full-time musicians who do it because they like to drink beer and stay up late and sleep all day, and they don't like having a boss that tells them what to do. Some would say they don't have what it takes to do anything other than play music.

 

Like I said though, you are very alone on this one. My guess is that you like Eva Longoria though, so you can be in that group.

 

1. He's not alone on this issue.

2. What he's doing DOES take balls.

[stepay]

I am a part-time adjunct instructor at a college. I do it solely because I enjoy teaching and working with the kids. I already have a full time job. Am I devaluing the teaching profession by working part-time and for wages less than full-time professors? I think not. I think I am actually contributing to the teaching profession by being a valuable contributor. I bring new life, new perspective and new energy to the job. Most importantly, I am significantly furthering the students' education - the most important goal.

 

Perhaps a true professional musician would be more interested in his work product than his income. Should you be more concerned about limiting entry by competitors or furthering the goals of encouraging musicianship. Is there any legitimate reason to believe that someone who is not a f/t musician cannot be a positive contributor to music? I think not.

 

I understand and appreciate your concerns. Everyone has to make a living and nobody likes to see their income sources shared with competitors. That being said, the way to secure your income is to improve your stature - marketing, work ethic, work quality - these are the things that might make people pay more for you than someone else. Instead of attacking your competition, perhaps time is best spent improving your position vis competitors.

 

garrafon,

 

I have also taught part-time at a college, and for less pay than the full-time professors (no health insurance either). I also was a part-time professional distance runner in the early 1990s. Some of the guys then that did it full-time would travel in 15-passenger vans to other states and run road races in hopes of winning $1,000 or a few hundred depending on their place or whatever. I didn't want to do that, so I'd wait until a race was within driving distance of my home, train for that race, go, win some money and head home. Was good enough to do what they were doing, but I just didn't want to do it full time. Glad I didn't continue either, because at age 40 there aren't too many money-making races out there (besides most races these days are dominated by Kenyan runners much better than I ever was), so I'd have to be doing something different by now anyway.

 

I've also moonlighted as a writer, editor, desktop publisher, computer instructor, and as a kid I sold worms to local fishermen. All of those jobs (except the worm selling) helped keep a roof over my head.

[Chaso DeChaso]

Am I devaluing the teaching profession by working part-time and for wages less than full-time professors?

 

I can see this both ways. In fact, you probably are in your own small way devaluing the profession...not that I am attempting to criticize you personally for your choice which may have more net positive affect. I've considered doing the same thing myself, though not in music.

 

When all professors were full-time they probably had more value (depending upon how that is definied). However, the profession of college professor is still extremely well controlled and you are probably not a direct competitive threat to other professors (whose appointment usually comes from upper-level decisions in only indirect response to market forces).

[Legatoboy]

Oh boy, Kanker you opened up a can of worms with that one!

 

There is the other side to that, We play the local blues festival out here on LI and my band has headlined and practically built the festival. Last year Dave Maxwell and Mose Allison headlined driving on the New Orleans piano vibe!. Sometimes Lil Charlie and the Night Cats, some years Rod Piazza or Gary US bonds.

 

On the slots we play the place is packed, packed 35000 people one year for our slot, pictures of the band in the paper.

Why should Gary US Bonds demand 10000k (who know who's getting what with that deal) and my band get 2000. We usually do the show with 7 people.

 

People didn't even listen to Dave Maxwell, $3500 one guy!

 

The knife cuts both ways my man!

 

I agree our situation may be the exception, but I wonder how many exceptions there are out there!

lb

 

 

 

[Joe Muscara]

Could it be that the musician who says, "I don't harbor any illusions about making a living being a full-time musician, so I'll just play some occasional gigs" is showing respect for the full-timer?

[burningbusch]

Look, if you're FULL-TIME then you should be doing whatever you do eight to ten hours a day, five to six days a week. If you're not gigging, you should be teaching or going out to every venue you can find promoting yourself or your band. You should be figuring out ways to get more people to your performances. You should be looking for new opportunities, constantly. The pros that I know around my neck of the woods that do all of the above seem to carve out a reasonable existence.

 

Busch.

[kanker.]

OOn the slots we play the place is packed, packed 35000 people one year for our slot, pictures of the band in the paper.

Why should Gary US Bonds demand 10000k (who know who's getting what with that deal) and my band get 2000. We usually do the show with 7 people.

 

People didn't even listen to Dave Maxwell, $3500 one guy!

You weren't competing for one gig in that case, but just one act on a festival, and NOT the marquee. You were taking fair market value for a local act on a festival, and GUSB was taking FMV for a national act on a festival. A full band taking $200 to play a club, at least around here, is in no way FMV.

[Legatoboy]

Kanker,

 

Yes True about it being a festival,

 

But my band drew more people than Mose or Maxwell. What you say is true, only point I'm trying to make is it's a slippery slope. We got alot more $$ this year cause we proved something (took 7 years). We are like half pro/half not, only cause we are trying to 'move up', things take time, so we work day jobs in the mean time sometimes. What do you do in that case, how do you figure it? Don't we have a right to move up, or do we have to go to California and pull the deal over there and demand 5000K for the Santa Barbara Blues festival to prove it then come back 'PROS'!

lb

[stepay]

Kanker,

 

Man are you alone on this one. That's ok though. I don't find Eva Longoria the least bit attractive and I know I'm in the huge minority there.

 

Since you've mentioned it a couple times though now, you should get over the "having the balls" to play music full time thing. Doesn't take balls at all. It's simply a career choice. I know LOTS of full-time musicians who do it because they like to drink beer and stay up late and sleep all day, and they don't like having a boss that tells them what to do. Some would say they don't have what it takes to do anything other than play music.

 

Like I said though, you are very alone on this one. My guess is that you like Eva Longoria though, so you can be in that group.

 

1. He's not alone on this issue.

2. What he's doing DOES take balls.

 

Ok. He's alone with you.

 

I'd sure like to know how it takes balls though. I don't pretend to think that my view of getting a regular day job is the only way to go, but in many ways it's more difficult to do what I do, working with others, keeping up with changing technology, etc. There's a solo guitarist in town who plays ~20 times a month, so he does this for a living. He's been playing the same songs for 20 years. I looked at his set list the other day, and he's got maybe 3 songs in it from the 1990s forward. Most of those songs are simple three-chord songs, and he makes very good money doing it with hardly any practice. He must have played Fire and Rain a million times by now. He's actually a pretty good singer and a passable guitarist, but to play the same songs over and over again while boring perhaps is pretty damn easy. So, in and of itself, being a full-time musician doesn't really take any balls. He has an agent and the agent books him and he's off to make his money playing the same songs again and again. Good for him for doing what he wants to do, but he's not sleeping in gutters or anything. I know that he makes a minimum of $350 per gig and that he makes more than that at probably half his gigs, some of which are weddings when he charges a couple thousand or more. Just for fun, lets say he averages $500 per gig and only plays 17 times per month. That's 8,500 per month or $102,000 per year (I think this is conservative for him). Sure he's on the road a lot and some of that goes to his agent, but he's hardly in the poor house. Day jobs aren't safe, so it's not like it's a big sacrifice to play music for a living (though most don't make $100,000 a year playing music).

[David Loving]

I got some material from the union just the other day. I am thinking about joining to support the whole movement. I think Kanker is right about strengthing the musicians union. This thread has just gotten the union a new member. There are many advantages- marketing, insurance breaks, collections help, bargaining, et al. Remember, the thread was begun by someone who admits he can't play a lick and it does not matter to him: "I should have stuck to what I was doing to begin with, and I wouldn't have lost so many years trying to accomplish something which is apparently not possible for me." All inspiration and no technique or ability? When there are no real standards except self imposed ones, everybody is a virtuoso. So maybe the originator is not really competition, just decrying 'coulda, woulda, shoulda' self pity regrets. Then again, the market is the market. Tough business.

[burningbusch]

You play in a club. Everyone is making minimum wage supplimented by tips. They work their asses off for eight hours to make what the musicians make in a hour or two. Oh, and they don't get 15 mintue breaks every 45 minutes either. Why is that fair?

 

If you can earn your keep and draw more $$$s into the club than what you're taking out, you're worth whatever your asking price. Otherwise you're just a drain on the place.

 

I was full-time for three+ years. I survived, but it wasn't for me.

 

Busch.

 

[ITGITC]

Regardless, you're still the man.

 

Mr. Kanker,

 

I understand your point. I do.

 

And yes, I will agree. For instance, cnegrad makes his living with the band that he and his wife participate in. He works his butt off. And I give him tremendous respect. He moved to North Carolina to raise his family, but the band rehearses out of New York. I don't get the feeling that he has too much of a problem with me playing down the street at a restaurant every once in awhile.

 

Blueskeys just joined a new band here in NC. Again - this is how he pays his bills. I called him a minute ago for a beer. He was working on transcribing his music - trying to get it right so that he can do what we all have to do to get work and to keep it. He too works his tail off. But he's never said anything to me about my playing the occassional private party on the weekends. Like I said, I figure that it just doesn't make any difference to him.

 

But you are right, it takes a lot of confidence in yourself to totally derive 100% of your income through music. As many folks on this forum have said, it's a crappy industry on so many levels. It's not easy. And I honestly believe that it takes someone with a lot of talent as well as a lot of determination to be successful. My hat is off to cnegrad, Blueskeys - and to you - for giving it a go.

 

On the other hand, I'm still going to play at the restaurant and the private party every now and then. I know this doesn't make you happy, but I've gotta do it.

 

Oh, an one more thing - I don't do it for free. And I don't go in trying to undercut anyone else's fee.

 

Take care,

 

Tom

 

[miroslav]

Interesting thread...

 

This thing about having to be a "full-time" musician and living off that alone in order to be allowed to play and create music...well, that's bit extreme and rather dictatorial.

 

No one is born a "full-time pro"...and no one can just instantly become a "full-time pro" from zero.

You gotta' work your way into that...and one of the ways is to do it part-time and as a weekend warrior.

Plus...in most areas...I doubt there would be enough full-time pros available on any given weekend to cover all the club/party/event needs....OR who would do it for the nickel & dime wages some weekend warriors getso instead, the club would resort to the jukebox or a DJ.

 

I don't believe in unions...that is a just a legal way to impose a certain level of unwarranted discrimination.

 

I know you guy are mostly talking about playing outbut if I stretch that over to the whole studio/recording worldheck, to say that you can only have a studio and make records if you do it full time and nothing elsewould be a very absurd and bizarre ruleespecially in a democratic, free market.

 

Youre one step from talking about socialistic, government controlled art

under the guise of union.

 

[ProfD]

If you can earn your keep and draw more $$$s into the club than what you're taking out, you're worth whatever your asking price. Otherwise you're just a drain on the place.

Busch.

 

Excellent point.

 

It is absurb for musicians to expect top dollar playing to an empty house and/or without a following.

 

 

[kanker.]

I don't believe in unions...that is a just a legal way to impose a certain level of unwarranted discrimination.

 

I know you guy are mostly talking about playing outbut if I stretch that over to the whole studio/recording worldheck, to say that you can only have a studio and make records if you do it full time and nothing elsewould be a very absurd and bizarre ruleespecially in a democratic, free market.

 

Youre one step from talking about socialistic, government controlled art

under the guise of union.

Dude, I'm generally a VERY anti-union person, but in the case of musicians, the union provides for things like a minimum scale for performances, recordings, and such, contracts, legal aid, insurance, etc.... It has nothing to do with socialism or government control, just protection for self employed individuals in a very dirty business. It's a very different thing than your typical workers union. Back in the day when the union had power, you couldn't even think about having music in a club without the union coming in and telling you whether or not your stage was adequate, much less talking about the money. They helped to ensure that the way the club presented the music was at a higher standard, or that club had no music. Where the union failed was in not embracing rock n roll and other newer pop musics 30-40 years or so ago, and courting those musicians to join.

[burningbusch]

Don't forget, the union is more than happy to collect dues from part-time musicians as well. Their primary concern is to collect dues and expand membership.

 

Every Wednesday, on way to my weekly gig, I drive past the Seattle Musician's Union office. It always dark and looks pitiful.

 

Busch.

[miroslav]

I'm curious...does hiring a union musician always guarantee that you are getting a "pro"...

the best musician for your money...?

 

I have some direct contact with a certain theatre...and I know the Director quite well...

...and he tells me over and over that the thing that is killing the theater and it's ability to bring in good acts, while still making a minuscule profit...

...is the union labor costs.

So...if the theater closes...then the union labor (and non-union labor) will have one less place to gig.

 

Having all/only union musicians is NOT the solution or guarantee for improving the quality of performances and acts at any/all venues and at all price points.

Only the union members will argue for that.

 

[Darren Landrum]

Wow, I was having a great time up until Daviel's post. Now... Well, I'm still having a great time, because really, he's right.

 

And he's wrong.

 

I can play extremely well. Just not keys. I'm a more than competent drummer, and one who was gigging regularly back in Colorado Springs, before I moved here. Daf's heard me play, even though I had not been behind a kit in two years before he heard me do so. Rusty, yes, but I hadn't lost it.

 

I also feel I am a competent composer. So, say my compositions turn out to be really good. Should the world lose out on that just because I can't play it personally? Well, okay, I can play the drums, and I can play the didgeridoo parts, because I like that instrument, and can play it decently.

 

I am a real fucking musician, and don't you forget it.

 

I've never wanted to play out. I just want to make songs and post them somewhere, maybe even put a CD out. Who knows?

 

[Darren Landrum]

Thanks, Daviel, that was just what I needed to feel better about myself!

 

I am getting the distinct feeling though that this may be my last appearance here at this forum. It's been fun, but I am incompatible with the general feeling here on this forum.

 

Strangely enough, though, I'm okay with that.

[mate stubb]

Good luck with the AF of M. I belonged in my young days, and all I ever got for my dues was a rubber chicken dinner once a month at the meetings.

 

The union never helped me to get a gig, get a good salary at a gig, intercede with an employer on a pay dispute, nothing.

 

In NYC, maybe. Not in the great American midwest.

[stepay]

Interesting thread...

 

...in most areas...I doubt there would be enough full-time pros available on any given weekend to cover all the club/party/event needs....OR who would do it for the nickel & dime wages some weekend warriors getso instead, the club would resort to the jukebox or a DJ.

 

Exactly! Plus, lets not forget that many weekend warriors actually get paid some decent money. I know I never undercut any full-time pros when taking money from a club around here. I never offered a price for what we'd play for. I always let the club set the price, and most of the time they paid more than we would have asked for. You play in a bar with about 100 people and you get $500 then that's pretty good for around here. Not sure how that bar could afford to pay much more than that to any full-time band. Some of the places in town get in national acts and then they sell tickets or stuff like that and those acts get more money, but that's a different deal altogether. The only difference between me and the local or regional guy who plays to feed his family is simply the number of times we each play.

[MidLifeCrisis]

Wow. I didn't open this thread for a while because it got boring. Now it has taken a complete 360.

 

I am completely amazed that someone would want all competition in their field to step away so their path to the top can be easy. Since when is anything in life easy? What happened to the old Smith and Barney Adage "Success is something you earn".

 

If you want to be the best at something you work harder than everyone and make sure your product is worthy of a higher price.

 

My main gig (yes I too am a weekend warrior - and proud of it) is software consulting. There are lot of college students and young kids who can undercut our services by 500%. Do we try to stop them? No way. Our clients know we are reliable, our software is state-of-the-art and we will be there with them in the long run. Of course there are small mom and pop businesses whose only concern is getting the work done the cheapest. For some of them this is sufficient. Why would a local florist shop pay $1 million for a web site? they wouldnt. We dont want the local florist business. We want Fortune 500 companies.

 

If the full time pros value themselves they should not be competing for spots in the local area pubs. They should be aspiring to the best venues possible. They should not be worried about how much the weekend warriors get paid entertaining the locals while they shoot pool.

 

[GovernorSilver]

Thanks, Daviel, that was just what I needed to feel better about myself!

 

I am getting the distinct feeling though that this may be my last appearance here at this forum. It's been fun, but I am incompatible with the general feeling here on this forum.

 

Strangely enough, though, I'm okay with that.

 

I find this forum to be friendly overall - much better quality than another keyboard forum that I've seen.

 

Then again, I've never argued with anyone over whether or not to read music, join a union, etc. My arguing has been restricted to NFL football.

[MaFunk]

I was a member of the MU in my teens here in the UK as my Brass teacher got me many a paying semi-pro/pro gig in the theatre pits with him ( I was proficient on the french horn in my youth). It was of course a requirement to have membership if you were to play in these situations. Getting paid for rehearsals was a nice bonus!

 

Nowadays im a weekend warrior in a funk band, but we have been playing out for many years and unless the gig offers top dollar/fair dollar it WILL be turned down..

 

In this "industry" the musician must learn to protect themselves or move on - we all know its high risk as a career choice. I have nothing but respect for Kanker - I can see why this must get him down. "Modern" music seems to get little respect from the union and thus less protection.