OT: learning guitar after keys

[KuruPrionz]

I've read quite a few posts above. I am a left handed human who has always played guitar right handed. Oddly, that imprint may have been made when I was 5 and my left handed uncle who played ukulele right handed, handed me his uke and I started out playing right handed.

 

First thing would be to have one of your guitars set up by a pro guitar tech. It can make a world of difference in the enjoyment of playing to have the action and intonation properly adjusted.

 

The biggest difference that I am aware of between guitar and keyboards is that guitar is much more efficient in terms of "patterns" used to play scales. All guitar strings are tuned to the 4th of the string below it. The 6th string is fretted at the 5th fret (a 4th) and the 5th string is tuned to that. So on up the neck until you get to the 2nd string, which is tuned to the 4th fret (a major 3rd). Then back to the fifth fret on the second string to tune the 1st string.

 

You can tune it other ways, there are umpty bajillion Hawaiian "slack key" tunings just for one example.

 

Back to my point. On a keyboard each key has a different pattern for fingering. On a guitar, just a different position on the neck but the same pattern. You will not need to learn as many patterns to play the guitar, each pattern can be started at any fret and still be the same pattern, just in a different key. While that is very efficient if it makes sense to you, it can create difficulties when reading traditional sheet music. On your Jaguar, there are 5 different locations for Middle C, on a keyboard only one. Sheet music was originally written or keyboards. You don't have to decide which Middle C to play, on guitar there are many choices up and down the neck.

 

For example, once you learn a minor pentatonic scale on all six strings (which is also a major pentatonic scale if you start at the minor third instead of the tonic), you can simply move that pattern (commonly known as "The Box") up or down the neck to change keys. The pattern itself will not change, just the key you are playing in. So a box started at the 3rd fret will be a G minor pentatonic scale or a Bb major pentatonic scale, if you move up two frets it will be an A minor pentatonic scale or a C major pentatonic scale.

 

The same is true for chords, the shape of a D major chord on the first 3 strings will make an E major if you move it up 2 frets, go one more fret and it is an F major.

 

Where it gets fun is when you learn all your patterns everywhere as a framework and then learn all the passing notes and chordal variations. Modes are simply starting a major scale from a different place, just like keyboards but again, that pattern will remain consistent up and down the neck.

 

The other biggest difference has been pointed out above. How you pick or pluck, where you pick or pluck and if your fretting finger has the string pressed to a fret or is lightly touching the string can create a large range of tones.

You can also stretch strings, to express things that a piano cannot, including playing authentic "blue" notes, which are not part of the tempered scale but often heard in deep blues and jazz.

 

FWIW, I am not good on keyboards. I know what the notes are and how to build chords but it is a different animal and my fascination with guitar will keep me entranced for this lifetime.

Have fun!!!

[TommyRude]

Try playing the guitar like a piano, ala Stanley Jordan. You might find that comes easy.

[El Lobo]

For me the main problem with guitar is I don't have the technique (or calluses) to get the strings pressed down cleanly on the fret board.

Have you had someone who knows what they're doing (guitar tech) look at lowering the action on your axe? Or, if it's as low as it can go but still hard to play, have you tried out other guitars to find one that's easier to play? There are electric guitars that can play with a very low action. Also, try playing a nylon string (classical) guitar. You've got to get past the feeling that you can't press the strings down cleanly. If you can get past that belief and spend more time on your axe, eventually your fingers and muscles develop enough that you overcome the sense that you can't press down hard enough. Once you get past that point, the rest is easy. See if you can adjust your guitar or try a different type of guitar in order to get to the feeling that you can make those chords cleanly.

[KuruPrionz]

For me the main problem with guitar is I don't have the technique (or calluses) to get the strings pressed down cleanly on the fret board.

Have you had someone who knows what they're doing (guitar tech) look at lowering the action on your axe? Or, if it's as low as it can go but still hard to play, have you tried out other guitars to find one that's easier to play? There are electric guitars that can play with a very low action. Also, try playing a nylon string (classical) guitar. You've got to get past the feeling that you can't press the strings down cleanly. If you can get past that belief and spend more time on your axe, eventually your fingers and muscles develop enough that you overcome the sense that you can't press down hard enough. Once you get past that point, the rest is easy. See if you can adjust your guitar or try a different type of guitar in order to get to the feeling that you can make those chords cleanly.

 

Lighter gauge strings can make a big difference as well. I AM a guitar tech and I agree with El Lobo that having a guitar set up properly is essential for enjoyment and technique.

I started in learning tech work because I wanted the best set up for my own guitars. It turned into a business. Now it is a side job that I do here and there. Getting everything right can make a huge difference if the guitar is in need.

[dazzjazz]

In in the same spot as the OP.

Bought a Telecaster, a nice Blues Junior and having some fun.

The advice from pro guitarist friends was to learn to read right off he bat, so I"ve been working through the first Berklee Method book and making progress.

 

My hands do get. Bit sore, but it doesn"t last thank gawd.

 

Good luck...

[re Pete]

Way back when I was a kid studying keys, I asked about taking up guitar and was eventually told that it was not compatible with keys. I thought that's weird, wondered why and just continued on keys.

Over the years, getting a better concept of keyboard touch and the bad effect of too much bottoming out on keys that can lead to tension, I thought that's probably what they meant.

Meaning, on guitar you hold a string down to sustain note with some amount of pressure vs keyboard if holding a sustained note only enough to get the job done without tension.

Not being a guitarist, I assume it's easier to play electric vs acoustic like similarly electric bass vs upright bass.

So I'm wondering if anyone feels tension playing keys after guitar?

I've noticed with one great guitar player I played with, his forearm was overdeveloped and it seemed his keyboard technique was stiff and tight.

Anyone experience this?

[CEB]

Depends on how you learn. Some aspects of guitar are really simple. Some things are more complex. On piano there is one place to play middle C, on guitar there is 4-5 places to play middle C. Piano as a theoretical foundation opens up everything if you put in the work and reps. ... except fiddle. Fiddle is hard, the bow kicked my ass.

[Threadslayer]

... except fiddle. Fiddle is hard, the bow kicked my ass.

LoL. Me too. The only two instruments I really tried to play and totally failed at were Fiddle: bow, and flute: wind.

[GovernorSilver]

Yep, the bow makes fiddling a pain. I had a Fernandes Fretless guitar which was fun to play. However it relied on the Sustainer electronics to make the note sing. So I got the crazy idea to buy a viola and bow, and started taking viola lessons. Later I got an electric fiddle. Playing with the bow, combined with the fretless fingerboard, is indeed a PITA. OTOH, my bandmate asked me to switch from lead guitar to electric fiddle because she felt the sound of viola/violin vibrato notes fit her music better than the usual rock lead guitar stuff, even though she was well aware of my deficiencies as a fiddler and struggles with bow control and intonation.

 

I finally got the hint from experienced fiddlers who double on mandolin, and got an electric mandolin to help work out fingerings and hand position for melodic material (fiddle tunes, Bach stuff, etc.) on a neck with pretty much the same scale and tuning as a fiddle's neck, without the additional challenge of the bow. Mandolin has its own challenge in that the high E strings break a lot more easily than than guitar high E strings. But now learning new melodies on fiddle is easier for me because I can work it out mandolin first, then transfer the fingerings to fiddle practically unchanged.

[johnchop]

Just to follow up, I found a good local deal on a Seagull Coastline acoustic, a really well-made guitar that sounds lovely.

 

I've shuffled through some YouTube teachers. So far, justinguitar is an excellent mix of encouraging, concise, and clear. Will go with a local in-person instructor when COVID concerns subside.

 

From there I'm just playing the mental game of practicing something new, made easier now that I have more gray hairs.

[GRollins]

Way back when I was a kid studying keys, I asked about taking up guitar and was eventually told that it was not compatible with keys. I thought that's weird, wondered why and just continued on keys.

Over the years, getting a better concept of keyboard touch and the bad effect of too much bottoming out on keys that can lead to tension, I thought that's probably what they meant.

Meaning, on guitar you hold a string down to sustain note with some amount of pressure vs keyboard if holding a sustained note only enough to get the job done without tension.

Not being a guitarist, I assume it's easier to play electric vs acoustic like similarly electric bass vs upright bass.

So I'm wondering if anyone feels tension playing keys after guitar?

I've noticed with one great guitar player I played with, his forearm was overdeveloped and it seemed his keyboard technique was stiff and tight.

Anyone experience this?

 

1) Yes, electric instruments are easier to play than acoustic ones--the string tension is lower. Acoustic instruments need higher string tension in order to make the top of the instrument vibrate more since there's no amplification. Note that if you want higher string tension on an electric instrument you can go with heavier gauge strings. This is particularly useful if you intend to play slide guitar, for instance, but most players opt for lighter gauge strings/lower tension.

2) Speaking from the other side of the fence, I've never noticed tension problems going from strings to keys. I can't recall noticing any guitar players that I've played with who had overdeveloped arms. For that matter, I don't recall seeing that Jimmy Page, Eric Clapton, Jimi Hendrix, et. al. had overdeveloped arms, either. If someone has asymmetrical arms, I'd start looking at what they do for a living (meaning their non-musical occupation) or perhaps a technique problem when playing. There's no need to have visibly overdeveloped arms for guitar or bass.

 

Grey

[GovernorSilver]

Not being a guitarist, I assume it's easier to play electric vs acoustic like similarly electric bass vs upright bass.

So I'm wondering if anyone feels tension playing keys after guitar?

I've noticed with one great guitar player I played with, his forearm was overdeveloped and it seemed his keyboard technique was stiff and tight.

Anyone experience this?

 

It depends on the guitar setup, particularly the action. If the action is high, it takes more effort to press strings to make contact with frets. If the guitarist likes to bend strings a lot, thicker gauge strings will take more work to bend than thinner ones.

 

Playing guitar with too much tension in the hands is a common problem among guitarists. However, some guitarists train themselves to play with a lighter touch and thus either heal from hand problems caused by years of excessive tension, or avoid hand problems altogether.

 

Keyboard players - well, some of them - learn to use gravity to play. Guitarists cannot rely as much on gravity to help fret notes on the fingerboard, if they suffer from hand problems, they have to switch to lower action and/or lighter strings, and maybe also repattern some movement - eg. using upper back muscle to appl pressure to strings instead of just forearm muscle.. People who play lap steel/pedal steel are in a different situation.

[Dave Bryce]

As more than a few here know, I'm waaaay into the guitars these days.

 

Been playing acoustic since high school. I am almost entirely self taught - but I'm good enough to play it in bands, during jams and on a few recordings. I've played some electric here and there, but never really dove in, mostly due to lack of ownership. Because I play in a band with someone from Fender, I ended up with a Telecaster, which completely knocked me out. That was the beginning...I have seven electrics now - it's become my COVID distraction. I play for a few hours every day. I absolutely love it. I can play songs I never would have messed with before. I mean, I could play Can't Buy Me Love...but when to step up to a mic with an electric guitar and play is whole different world, man.

 

http://i.imgur.com/I5SP4RU.jpg

 

A huuuuge key to me for learning how to handle the guitar/get over the intimidation factor came from my Line 6 POD XT, because it gave me all the presets I needed to play with a whole bunch of finished sounds - you see Breathe Phaser, you know what type of sound to expect! Stereo Crunch, Steve Ray Blues, Metal Lead, Clean PIcker...you get the idea. It also made it much easier for me to learn not just to learn how to touch, pick, pluck, etc...but also how to build these sounds by deconstructng the presets. Oh yeah, the headphone jack probably kept me from getting hurt by the bride more than a few times as well.

 

Now I've gotten to the point where I've built my own pedal board.

 

 

Wanna hear something really funny? All the guitar playing and sound exploration kinda seems to be affecting the way I play keys.

 

dB

[Baldwin Funster]

Pretty soon people will be telling you to turn it down and leave space for the keys. Ah.. the circle or life.

[GRollins]

Way back when I was a kid studying keys, I asked about taking up guitar and was eventually told that it was not compatible with keys. I thought that's weird, wondered why and just continued on keys.

Over the years, getting a better concept of keyboard touch and the bad effect of too much bottoming out on keys that can lead to tension, I thought that's probably what they meant.

Meaning, on guitar you hold a string down to sustain note with some amount of pressure vs keyboard if holding a sustained note only enough to get the job done without tension.

Not being a guitarist, I assume it's easier to play electric vs acoustic like similarly electric bass vs upright bass.

So I'm wondering if anyone feels tension playing keys after guitar?

I've noticed with one great guitar player I played with, his forearm was overdeveloped and it seemed his keyboard technique was stiff and tight.

Anyone experience this?

 

1) Yes, electric instruments are easier to play than acoustic ones--the string tension is lower. Acoustic instruments need higher string tension in order to make the top of the instrument vibrate more since there's no amplification. Note that if you want higher string tension on an electric instrument you can go with heavier gauge strings. This is particularly useful if you intend to play slide guitar, for instance, but most players opt for lighter gauge strings/lower tension.

2) Speaking from the other side of the fence, I've never noticed tension problems going from strings to keys. I can't recall noticing any guitar players that I've played with who had overdeveloped arms. For that matter, I don't recall seeing that Jimmy Page, Eric Clapton, Jimi Hendrix, et. al. had overdeveloped arms, either. If someone has asymmetrical arms, I'd start looking at what they do for a living (meaning their non-musical occupation) or perhaps a technique problem when playing. There's no need to have visibly overdeveloped arms for guitar or bass.

 

Grey

[KuruPrionz]

2) Speaking from the other side of the fence, I've never noticed tension problems going from strings to keys. I can't recall noticing any guitar players that I've played with who had overdeveloped arms. For that matter, I don't recall seeing that Jimmy Page, Eric Clapton, Jimi Hendrix, et. al. had overdeveloped arms, either. If someone has asymmetrical arms, I'd start looking at what they do for a living (meaning their non-musical occupation) or perhaps a technique problem when playing. There's no need to have visibly overdeveloped arms for guitar or bass.

 

Grey

 

Truth. A relaxed approach is my primary focus when playing guitar. I've even scalloped my fretboard so it takes a very light touch to fret or stretch a string. I don't need volume from my pick, I have an amp I can turn up.

Playing lightly provides more dynamic range than pummeling away like you are killing chickens.

 

For all that, I have many friends who have developed tense techniques, they fight with their guitar and nobody wins. One friend came up to me after a set and said "How do you get all those tones with just a channel switch and a delay pedal?" I handed him my pick, a Gator 2mm (very heavy, no flex at all). I said "turn your amp up until it scares you and learn to play quietly on that." He wasn't having any of it, still sounds the same - slamming away with a medium pick. He gets more or less one tone even though he has about 10 pedals on a pedal board. Habits dies hard, best to not let them start!

[GRollins]

I try to play guitar and bass lightly, say, 90-95% of the time. It's rare that I "dig in." In the event that I want to play faster notes, I've found that having my muscles tensed works against me. It's either speed or power--not both at the same time. Yes, there are classical pianists who can do both and I suppose that if I worked at it I could manage. but for the tones I hear in my head, it doesn't get me where I want to go. I'm just not a "windmill," Pete Townsend sort of guy.

 

Interestingly, I tend to play the piano voices on my keys harder than I do guitar. Yes, I know it's an apples to oranges comparison, but I do tend to hit piano voices harder. Synth tones...back to light, since there's no point in beating on a key that doesn't respond differently.

 

Grey

[KuruPrionz]

I try to play guitar and bass lightly, say, 90-95% of the time. It's rare that I "dig in." In the event that I want to play faster notes, I've found that having my muscles tensed works against me. It's either speed or power--not both at the same time. Yes, there are classical pianists who can do both and I suppose that if I worked at it I could manage. but for the tones I hear in my head, it doesn't get me where I want to go. I'm just not a "windmill," Pete Townsend sort of guy.

 

Interestingly, I tend to play the piano voices on my keys harder than I do guitar. Yes, I know it's an apples to oranges comparison, but I do tend to hit piano voices harder. Synth tones...back to light, since there's no point in beating on a key that doesn't respond differently.

 

Grey

 

I learned to play softly because I have an abiding and unending hatred of knobs. I am much happier to leave my volume and tone knobs on all guitars cranked up full and adjust my volume and tone by how and where I pick.

That allows me to express through dynamics as well as note choice. I like it.

[LX88]

Currently I am working on sets of guitar chords based on keyboard voicing.

 

Has anyone else noticed that while many keyboard voicings do not contain the root most if not all guitar books have the root of the chord in there somewhere.

 

I am also working on a chord writing system. I use only the string and fret of the upper note...after that it is just fret numbers.

 

Kind of a shorthand tab system.

[GRollins]

Has anyone else noticed that while many keyboard voicings do not contain the root most if not all guitar books have the root of the chord in there somewhere.

 

That was something that surprised me when I started looking into keyboards. My hypothesis (and that's all it is) is that on keys, you're required to stretch your hands wider and wider to get to the root sometimes. On a guitar, you don't generally have to stretch--there's a root available somewhere within a comfortable fingering range, so you might as well drop a finger and add it to the mix.

 

For example, an A barre chord gives you three easy options for the root note; sixth string, fourth string, and first string, for a total of two (inclusive) octaves. It's easy-peasy to hit those notes. It's not humanly possible for someone to cover two octaves on a keyboard with one hand--just a little over one octave. If you start fiddling with inversions and ninths or elevenths or whatever on a keyboard, you're going to run out of stretch sooner or later. Yes, there's likely to be one chance at a root somewhere in there, but the fingering might be awkward.

 

I saw an interview with Jimmy Page wherein he said that he rarely played a full chord; usually just a subset of the notes that you see in a chord book. In a case like that, it's not unusual to see him playing chords without roots, but it's something that he does by choice, not out of necessity.

 

Different instruments have different strengths and weaknesses. That's part of why I'm trying to add keys to my bag of tricks. It doesn't come naturally to me, so that forces me to think about my music in different ways...and that's a good thing. I'm more conscious of my note choices when I go back and forth between different instruments.

 

Grey

[El Lobo]

Interesting tack this has taken. I started on guitar as a young teen (actually, uke before that) and guitar playing is naturally very root-based, as said in previous posts. The chords you learn to play first always have a root in them, and you can have roots in several places in one chord on the neck. Also, as you learn to play separate notes on the lower bass strings, fingerpicking or striking with a thumb or pick, you're naturally hitting root notes to form a pattern or play a chord change. Many years later when I started playing keys in rock or blues bands, I naturally played chords and patterns by hitting the root notes with my left hand as I would on the guitar. Although I see how to play rootless chords and patterns on keys, it's hard not to think like a guitar player. I try to practice figures and licks without the root in them but my left hand always wants to hit the root. The idea of only playing a 3rd or 5th or 6th or 7 with my left hand and not hitting the root is almost impossible for me to get my head around. But I'm trying ...

[johnchop]

Playing keys in a band after playing keys solo requires a similar shift in thinking.

[GovernorSilver]

Currently I am working on sets of guitar chords based on keyboard voicing.

 

Has anyone else noticed that while many keyboard voicings do not contain the root most if not all guitar books have the root of the chord in there somewhere.

 

 

Yes, I've noticed.

 

Fareed Haque's comping course on TrueFire is one of the few guitar instructionals to focus extensively on rootless chord voicings for guitar. He learned the hard way - by being fired from a gig (or more) for playing too many notes in his chords - low notes clashing with the bass player, high notes clashing with the keyboard player. Thus his course focuses on shell voicings for guitar that omit the root - first teaching the basic 2-note shell voicings, then adding the info that the guitarist would need for extensions, substitutions, etc.

 

https://truefire.com/jazz-guitar-lessons/jazz-comping-survival-guide/c121

 

Randy Vincent has a couple of books that delve more deeply into rootless voicings, including The Drop 2 Book which is his adaptation of Mark Levine's Drop 2 Book which was written for pianists.

[GRollins]

Although I see how to play rootless chords and patterns on keys, it's hard not to think like a guitar player.

 

My string playing style, both guitar and bass, frequently involves using an open string as a drone note while I play something else above it. In practice, that generally means E or A, or less commonly, D. G every third or fourth blue moon. Nearly always as the root. That tendency carries over to keys. I really, really want to hear a root and it's hard when I don't have one.

 

Another point that never gets mentioned: Our low end speaker technology has not really progressed much in the last fifty years or so. Practical low end extension on a non-EQed speaker is still roughly -3dB at 40-45Hz, and that's a best case scenario. Usually it's closer to 50-60Hz for -3dB and -10dB at 40Hz. (Remember that low E on a bass is ~41Hz.) How is this relevant? If I'm playing, say, 5-string bass, then a low B is around 29Hz. Uh, okay...so what? Well, what happens is that the 29Hz is lost. Totally. Completely. Utterly. It simply isn't heard as a direct note because it's down -20dB or more. Yes, the ear can backfill to a certain extent, but that's not the same thing. Then there's the phenomenon of doubling, in which a speaker puts out a sound at twice the frequency of the signal you're feeding it. That means that a B0, ca. 29Hz, ends up being a B1 (whether because the fundamental is lost and we're getting the first harmonic, or due to doubling), so it can be a higher note than you intended. That means, in turn, that if you were expecting a low root note, you may not get it. It may effectively be an inadvertent first transposition of a chord, with the root above the third, fifth, etc. That ends up changing your aural perception of the chord.

 

Ain't science fun!

 

Grey

 

P.S.: If I ever start over with my bass rig, I'll probably go with Bag End cabinets. They use EQ to go deep with some semblance of flat response. Okay, okay...then you get into phase shifts and things, but still...real, honest, deep low end is to-die-for. Most people wouldn't recognize a true reproduction of low E on a bass if it bit them on the ass. They've been conditioned to think that doubled notes are the real thing. Fooey! And B0? Huh! Beyond their imaginations. Show people a legitimate 29Hz note and they'll be bowing to the speaker like the proto-humans before the monolith in 2001: A Space Odyssey. Religions have been founded on less.

P.P.S: Should you take it upon yourself to play bass or synth through a good high end stereo system TAKE IT EASY ON THE VOLUME! It's really easy to blow drivers. You have been warned. That said, it can sound pretty spectacular if you've got the right hardware.

[The Real MC]

Wanna hear something really funny? All the guitar playing and sound exploration kinda seems to be affecting the way I play keys.

 

Same here. When I acquired my silvertop Rhodes piano, I tried my guitar amps with it. A vacuum tube amp can impart a wonderful tone to the sound that isn't possible with EQ or other processor.

 

I steered clear of the money pit of guitar pedals, my Vox Tonelab SE fills that role nicely (you can disable the amp sims and only use the effects). Some of the guitar effects work quite well with EPs and synths.

 

Why should guitar players have all the fun?!?