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Re: Yamaha YC61 Announced
nadroj #3022916 01/10/20 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by N4dr0j
Originally Posted by uhoh7
No Poly Aftertouch. No Mono Aftertouch. No aftertouch at all.

So great in so many ways. Huge MIDI section in manual. Keys look good, etc. What a disfigurement to a beautiful thing.


Why would a clonewheel need aftertouch?


Why would a clonewheel need MIDI? They went to alot of work to make the thing a master controller, obviously. But somewhere is a bean counter who says: we can save $20 per unit or maybe 50. Obviously it's a thing right with Yamaha: MODX also no aftertouch.

With the Genos? No audio interface on board like Montage. Montage? Articulations short of Genos. It can play those patches better in a number of cases, or so many report.

But the Genos does point at this product, with it's clonewheel implementation and even use of Hammond drawbar knob clones. Why so few makers are interested in refining and expanding ways to control their products, I'm not sure. The Osmose will shake that. From side to side, LOL.

But as an alternative to a 6D, this looks great, honestly. The keys, aside from AT, are promising. Basic mono AT is really simple in terms of hardware, though it's seldom done really well in terms of sensitivity and adjustment. DM12 a case in point. The Numa CX2 has pretty good AT, but unfinished MIDI control--well behind this product, but much cheaper too.

I can't think of a master controller which just puts the obvious tools all in front of us. Yet now we can all buy a Arp 2600!

Last edited by uhoh7; 01/10/20 03:02 PM.

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Re: Yamaha YC61 Announced
jimkost2002 #3022925 01/10/20 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by jimkost2002
I want to get my hands on one.....

The PB/Mod levers and drawbars sending the right cc’s are pluses that the Nord doesn’t have.
I’m an organ purist, mostly, but unless you're doing a jazz trio kicking sticks needing some crunchy warmth or a hi-energy rock gig and need a Jon Lord or Vanilla Fudge distortion, none of the clones except MAG, Mojo or Legend will get you any further than halfway there or “ah, good enough for this gig”.
Knowing how good Yamaha is with piano actions (I have a CP88) I have faith that the YC will be equally responsive!

The form factor and weight are super great for travel, esp carry-ons!


Jim, I always appreciate your opinions when it comes to keyboards like this because you've auditioned everything and gigged with much of it.

I wouldn't dismiss the YC organ just because it's not up to the standard set by the Mojo and Legend. Based on what I've heard, it's a legit B3 emulation, but it's not up there with the best. Like the Electro and VR09, it's a gigging solution useful to a sector of players who need mainly meat and potatoes, with just a small side of veggies. I love the Vox Conti, but the limited split capabiliites force to you choose between meat or potatoes at any one time. The VR09 is great for the price point, but for organ/piano it's more like fast food.

Reasonable minds can differ on whether they prefer the Electro or YC. I'm very eager to see how the keybed feels because there's a very good chance Yamaha has produced something really pleasurable to play. The unmodified Fatar action in most clones including the Electro has always felt like something I could tolerate rather than enjoy. Crumar greatly improved on it with their modifications. Let's see what Yamaha has accomplished.


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Re: Yamaha YC61 Announced
Giancarlo Robles #3022929 01/10/20 03:17 PM
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As usual, the crowd here has done a good job of pointing out pros/cons vs. competitors. If I was in the marked for an organ-centric all-in-one (which I'm not), my thoughts would be:

- Great that they included audio interface in case I need to augment sounds.

- Disappointed that there is no aftertouch. I don't buy the "it's a clonewheel" argument since it has pitch bend and mod wheels. I realize that most of the competitors also don't have aftertouch but that could have been a selling point for Yamaha. Roland got it right on the VR-760 (one of the original attempts at this type of keyboard): really nice waterfall keyboard with very smooth aftertouch response.

- As a person who has owned several Motif-line and Nord electro/stage keyboards: I would gladly trade the Nord sample library for a useful set of Yamaha high-quality multi-samples. The Nord samples are OK in a pinch and useful as raw synthesis options on the Stage. But for most acoustic instrument emulations they don't hold up to modern ROMplers. As an example, find the "Velo Growl" acoustic bass sound on any Yamaha Motif/MOX series and compare to anything on the Nord library. No contest.

- None of the above would make any difference unless the Yamaha is in the same league as the others on Hammond/Leslie emulation. Doesn't have to be the best but it better be darn good.


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Re: Yamaha YC61 Announced
Giancarlo Robles #3022940 01/10/20 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by konaboy
if you can get past the fact that it's not a hammond, the FM organ through the leslie sim when played with taste sounds absolutely wonderful, check the demo track "YC61 FM Organ F1Testify". I would totally enjoy using that!

From the manual, it looks like they used FM to create the Farfisa/Vox emulations as well as a sine-based organ, but the FM is also used for numerous other sounds... some of the EPs, brass, synth, bass, and chromatic percussion sounds are FM, along with one of the guitars and one of the harmonicas.


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Re: Yamaha YC61 Announced
AnotherScott #3022941 01/10/20 04:02 PM
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[quote=AnotherScott]
What's the issue with Nord drawbars? They do send MIDI

In Logic they don’t send MIDI correctly to VB3, you have to remap


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Re: Yamaha YC61 Announced
Giancarlo Robles #3022943 01/10/20 04:07 PM
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as far as the new YC being competition to the current VR-09 and VR-730:

Watefall keys and drawbars that send CC already puts it well above the Roland: Yes I own a VR-09 and the sounds are fantastic. There are times, though, I wish it had true waterfall keys. HOwever, for the price I paid for it a few years ago, it more than does the job.

I do have GAS for the new YC, though.



David
Gig Rig: Casio PX-5S | Yamaha YC61 | Mac Mini | GigPerformer

Re: Yamaha YC61 Announced
AnotherScott #3022944 01/10/20 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by AnotherScott
[

But I wouldn't by any means call the sample library useless w/o PB/mod. Sample library is used for WAY more than synth leads, which is the only place you're likely to really feel that absence. Not much of an issue for pads, mellotrons, strings/horns/winds, chromatic percussion, etc. So it would be more important for some players than others.


Really?

“Not much of an issue with pads”?

Part of playing a pad is the ability to control timbre witn mod wheel/lever/stick, so yes, it is and shall be useless on the Electro until or if they ever decide to implement PB or mod cc’s and physical controls


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Re: Yamaha YC61 Announced
nadroj #3022946 01/10/20 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by N4dr0j
Originally Posted by uhoh7
No Poly Aftertouch. No Mono Aftertouch. No aftertouch at all.

So great in so many ways. Huge MIDI section in manual. Keys look good, etc. What a disfigurement to a beautiful thing.


Why would a clonewheel need aftertouch?


Poly-aftertouch is not a good fit for this requirement. A pure-clonewheel doesn't even need mono (channel) aftertouch - nor does a pure digital piano. A "stage keyboard" of this type with some synth voices could benefit. However I don't think any of the YC's direct competitors have aftertouch either. (You're looking at Kurzweil PC361, Kronos or Nord Stage for clonewheel model+aftertouch I think).

Cheers, Mike.


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Re: Yamaha YC61 Announced
jimkost2002 #3022952 01/10/20 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Sam Mullins
I realize that most of the competitors also don't have aftertouch but that could have been a selling point for Yamaha. Roland got it right on the VR-760 (one of the original attempts at this type of keyboard)

as has the Nord Stage series, of course, going back to the earliest model. I read somewhere that the original Nord Stage designer had worked on the VR-760, though I don't know it for a fact. But I wouldn't be surprised, You can definitely see evidence of some of the same DNA.

Originally Posted by jimkost2002
Originally Posted by AnotherScott

What's the issue with Nord drawbars? They do send MIDI

In Logic they don’t send MIDI correctly to VB3, you have to remap

I suspect the YC may be the same. I think it's common that MIDI CC clonewheels map specific ranges within the 127 values to the 9 possible drawbar values, and you may have to do some remapping on the receiving end if controlling something else. Certainly the MIDI CC numbers themselves almost certainly have to be remapped.

Originally Posted by jimkost2002
Originally Posted by AnotherScott
But I wouldn't by any means call the sample library useless w/o PB/mod...Not much of an issue for pads, mellotrons, strings/horns/winds, chromatic percussion, etc. So it would be more important for some players than others.
Really?

“Not much of an issue with pads”?

Part of playing a pad is the ability to control timbre witn mod wheel/lever/stick, so yes, it is and shall be useless on the Electro until or if they ever decide to implement PB or mod cc’s and physical controls

So okay, omit pads from my list. ;-) Personally, I've never used pads very much, and haven't used them that way. But I may be atypical in rarely using LH controls at all, since I'm very much a two-hands-on-the-keys player as a rule.


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Re: Yamaha YC61 Announced
Giancarlo Robles #3022953 01/10/20 04:44 PM
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Just looked a bit at the manual: Nice that they gave plenty of foot controller inputs and options for controlling rotary speed.


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Re: Yamaha YC61 Announced
Giancarlo Robles #3022955 01/10/20 04:58 PM
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This thing is not going to pop for 6 months so there's plenty of time for in depth reviews and demos. Right now I just watched all the YT vids again. The organ isn't "quite" up to the best standards including my SK1 and especially the software emulations but to my ears, it ain't bad either. It's already a whole lot better than the organ in my FA06. And, we all know how great the keybed is on that thing. The organ is the only serious gripe some purists could have with this board, aftertouch, meh. Otherwise the other sounds I'm hearing especially the AP's but literally everything else too is first rate, seriously good. The more I look at this, the more I listen, the more I'm loving it. And since it seems to have good midi and it has the audio interface thing happening, it can be upgraded with an OS update. If Yamaha has plans for updating we don't know yet but it seems possible plus who knows what goodies are hiding in the OS that could allow some modding of the organ now? Smarter guys than me will be all over that once it's released.

People talk about price like this is expensive. If your budget is seriously tight and $2,000 is a lot for you I can appreciate that, I've been there. But, run two grand back 20-30 years and allow for inflation, this would have been a $4-5,000 equivalent board then. I paid $1,750 for a K1000 in 1987 and had to finance it then I paid about $2,200 for a used Korg T1 around 1992 or so. Relatively speaking all of our toys are less than half what they cost then and maybe closer to a third. Don't ask what I paid for gear in the 70's, but here's a hint, it was the same numbers. This stuff is seriously affordable now.

Bob


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Re: Yamaha YC61 Announced
Adan #3022964 01/10/20 05:51 PM
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The audio inputs are nice too. Those have been a valuable addition to my MODX.


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Re: Yamaha YC61 Announced
Giancarlo Robles #3022965 01/10/20 05:56 PM
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An upper tier gigging keyboard with two engines (clone wheel and synth) has long been a hope of mine since I almost always have a weighted key stage piano with me. If it has a sample engine as well with some orchestral instruments, maybe some APs and EPs - I wouldn't complain. But since I always have an 88k weighted with me for APs and EPs - I enjoy to use the upper board for "other".

As such, I'm thrilled that the YC is looking like a decent MIDI controller - the inclusion of pitch/mod, foot controller and switch and MIDI CC's for the draw bars is exciting.
Yeah, AT or poly AT would have been nice but I'm thrilled it has waterfall keys.

The sound list suggests a bunch of pads and leads in the AWM2 engine.
How robust is this FM engine. It says 8 operator... programmable? How awesome would it have been if it was the DX7 FM engine and it could load DX7 programs?


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Re: Yamaha YC61 Announced
ElmerJFudd #3022968 01/10/20 06:02 PM
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Originally Posted by ElmerJFudd
An upper tier gigging keyboard with two engines (clone wheel and synth) has long been a hope of mine since I almost always have a weighted key stage piano with me. If it has a sample engine as well with some orchestral instruments, maybe some APs and EPs - I wouldn't complain. But since I always have an 88k weighted with me for APs and EPs - I enjoy to use the upper board for "other".

As such, I'm thrilled that the YC is looking like a decent MIDI controller - the inclusion of pitch/mod, foot controller and switch and MIDI CC's for the draw bars is exciting.
Yeah, AT or poly AT would have been nice but I'm thrilled it has waterfall keys.

The sound list suggests a bunch of pads and leads in the AWM2 engine.
How robust is this FM engine. It says 8 operator... programmable? How awesome would it have been if it was the DX7 FM engine and it could load DX7 programs?


RE FM synth, I was wondering the same. I wonder if you can access the operators and create sounds. Would be a huge plus if you could.


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Re: Yamaha YC61 Announced
Jazzmammal #3022970 01/10/20 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Jazzmammal
This thing is not going to pop for 6 months


Actually it hits next month.


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Re: Yamaha YC61 Announced
ElmerJFudd #3022971 01/10/20 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by ElmerJFudd
I'm thrilled that the YC is looking like a decent MIDI controller - the inclusion of pitch/mod, foot controller and switch and MIDI CC's for the draw bars is exciting.


plus I think it has 4 zone MIDI control with Program Change etc for each Live Set location... so you should be able to easily integrate iOS sounds, for example.


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Re: Yamaha YC61 Announced
Giancarlo Robles #3022973 01/10/20 06:21 PM
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What a cool and practical instrument! I can see the YC61 being a second-tier duo piece for my Stage 3, 76. The Nord organs are solid, but the heavier action is just passable for that, to my hands at least. I used an SK-1 in that role for a while, but found the additional sounds and layout very limiting; that's why my Hammond is now a module, and is used mostly in my home workspace. I've been hoping that Hammond would release something like the YC61, but it appears they've gone a different direction (further development of the same SK format, etc.).

Thinking live practicalities, the YC might eventually take the place of my Fantom. I'd just started prepping that keyboard when it became apparent the clonewheel model referred to in videos wasn't there at all (Supposedly going to happen in a future update, but I'm feeling a bit cynical - especially after Version 1.11, which was frankly a 'whip-de-dip' moment; then there's their customer support cutbacks...). Have been hoping to have the second-tier 'board in place in the next few months. If the YC61 is in stores by spring, and Roland's updates drag, I'll be tempted. The YC appears to be all there and ready to go on release.


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Re: Yamaha YC61 Announced
Giancarlo Robles #3022977 01/10/20 06:26 PM
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I wonder if it’s intentional that two of the guys in the demo are Swedish whistle


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Re: Yamaha YC61 Announced
nadroj #3022979 01/10/20 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by N4dr0j
I wonder if it’s intentional that two of the guys in the demo are Swedish whistle


roll roll roll


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Re: Yamaha YC61 Announced
Giancarlo Robles #3022980 01/10/20 06:29 PM
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Wonder if the Modx could eventually get this "engine"....guessing not for any number of reasons (technical and otherwise) but it would be a huge reason for me to hold onto it. On the fence currently. Or if they put a good analog engine in there, same result smile

Last edited by Stokely; 01/10/20 06:30 PM.
Re: Yamaha YC61 Announced
ElmerJFudd #3022983 01/10/20 06:49 PM
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Originally Posted by ElmerJFudd
An upper tier gigging keyboard with two engines (clone wheel and synth) has long been a hope of mine since I almost always have a weighted key stage piano with me.

Non-hammer boards with organ (with real-time drawbar controls), synth (with pitch/mod controls and mono mode with portamento), and some typical rompler sounds (strings, brass, etc.)...

Casio: MZ-X500
Dexibell: Combo J7
Korg: Kronos 61/LS, Vox Continental, PA700/PA1000/PA4X?
Kurzweil: Artis 7
Nord: Stage 3
Roland: VR-09/VR-730
Yamaha: YC61 and I guess Genos?

...but there are tons of differences among them. Some significant ones: quality of the organ/leslie sounds, on-board vs. computer-based sound editing (and how editable the sounds are at all), seamless sound switching, how many presets can be easily recalled directly from front panel buttons, ability to send organ out its own output, # keys, how many split/layered sounds at once and how many effects they can have and ease of creating/manipulating them on the fly, how many MIDI zones (if any), whether drawbar controllers send MIDI CC, ability to select sounds over MIDI, audio in, how many foot switches/pedals supported, ability to load custom samples, aftertouch, extent of front panel real-time sound manipulation controls, how much information is presented on the display, quality of action, price, weight...it would make a good spreadsheet. ;-)

Last edited by AnotherScott; 01/10/20 07:26 PM.

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Re: Yamaha YC61 Announced
Giancarlo Robles #3022990 01/10/20 07:08 PM
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Too bad it does not have assignable Outputs. I like to use outboard gear (Ventilator or even a real Leslie) to process the organ sounds... and run all the other sounds (piano,strings, brass, ect.) out the stereo main output.


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Re: Yamaha YC61 Announced
Giancarlo Robles #3022994 01/10/20 07:11 PM
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Thanks, Scott. I know, lots of insightful thoughts shared as always, thank you.

On this list...
Casio MZ - I don't hardly care for any of the many sounds they included on this board.
Dexibell - they need to work on the organ sound and the rotary effect on this board. the moving faders are cool, the ancillary timbres are also a disappointment.
Korg Kronos - I've contemplated a Kronos MANY times over the years. The 61k is now down to $2799 new - it's still hot for me price wise ($19999.99 street for the YC61 is a tad hot as well). Wish it had waterfall keys. The fader caps I am sure can be swapped for drawbar caps.
Kurzweil Artis 7 - has also been on my possible list - again, wish it had waterfall keys, I know you've swapped the fader caps and I think you mentioned you swapped the springs on the Fatar?
Nord Stage 3 - pfff. yeah right.
Roland VR-09 - won't touch it. It's built like poop, keys play like poop. Like the programmability, need an iPad to do it though. VR-730 wasn't out when I got my VR-700 new for $1400. Wish it sent MIDI CC's but I can use a translator if I need to.
Genos - pffffffffff, yeah riIIiIIIIIIght? smile

Of course if the MIDI implementation is good - several of these can run B5 or any of the many VST/AU synths out there.
As you suggest - being able to switch sounds with MIDI, send CC with the drawbars/faders, having an controller input, pitch and mod.
The YC61 is looking pretty good over all.

I did omit the Korg Vox earlier, I can't think why. But I forgot about it.
And I passed on it. But I can't remember why it didn't appeal to me any longer. Although on first thought, I know I prefer physical drawbars.


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Re: Yamaha YC61 Announced
engineerjoel #3022996 01/10/20 07:17 PM
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Originally Posted by engineerjoel
Too bad it does not have assignable Outputs. I like to use outboard gear (Ventilator or even a real Leslie) to process the organ sounds... and run all the other sounds (piano,strings, brass, ect.) out the stereo main output.


True but typically only an issue when wanting to layer and split when using the Vent. The Vent has true bypass, yeah?


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Re: Yamaha YC61 Announced
ElmerJFudd #3022998 01/10/20 07:32 PM
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Originally Posted by ElmerJFudd
Thanks, Scott. I know, lots of insightful thoughts shared as always, thank you.

On this list...
Casio MZ - I don't hardly care for any of the many sounds they included on this board.
Dexibell - they need to work on the organ sound and the rotary effect on this board. the moving faders are cool, the ancillary timbres are also a disappointment.
Korg Kronos - I've contemplated a Kronos MANY times over the years. The 61k is now down to $2799 new - it's still hot for me price wise ($19999.99 street for the YC61 is a tad hot as well). Wish it had waterfall keys. The fader caps I am sure can be swapped for drawbar caps.
Kurzweil Artis 7 - has also been on my possible list - again, wish it had waterfall keys, I know you've swapped the fader caps and I think you mentioned you swapped the springs on the Fatar?
Nord Stage 3 - pfff. yeah right.
Roland VR-09 - won't touch it. It's built like poop, keys play like poop. Like the programmability, need an iPad to do it though. VR-730 wasn't out when I got my VR-700 new for $1400. Wish it sent MIDI CC's but I can use a translator if I need to.
Genos - pffffffffff, yeah riIIiIIIIIIght? smile

Of course if the MIDI implementation is good - several of these can run B5 or any of the many VST/AU synths out there.
As you suggest - being able to switch sounds with MIDI, send CC with the drawbars/faders, having an controller input, pitch and mod.
The YC61 is looking pretty good over all.

I did omit the Korg Vox earlier, I can't think why. But I forgot about it.
And I passed on it. But I can't remember why it didn't appeal to me any longer. Although on first thought, I know I prefer physical drawbars.



Good post. I agree.


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Re: Yamaha YC61 Announced
ElmerJFudd #3023000 01/10/20 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted by ElmerJFudd
On this list...

I actually found the Casio MZ synth/rompler sounds generally perfectly acceptable. The organ is weak and really needs the Vent, and luckily, you can pan the sounds so that should be manageable, though I never actually got around to trying it. Nice touchscreen interface, especially when you learn a few shortcuts (like you can re-order the menu screens, and you can generally move sounds into a different category/screen to more easily group the ones you need together, etc.). Biggest limitations were in its MIDI functionality. It's also a bit pricey unless you find a deal on it... it's typically $1100, and for $1300 you can get a Korg PA700 which generally outclasses it in almost every way. (PA700 is still weak in its organ sound though, and the sliders are virtual on the touchscreen instead of physical.)

I agree about Dexibell, I love the moving faders idea, but their sounds generally unimpress me in both quality and quantity.

Yes, I swapped the fader caps and springs in my Artis 7. Cool board, but have moved to a PC4 in the rig, which means there's not much call for the Artis 7. I hadn't been using it much anyway, just because for my particular needs, I usually had a better choice available, which didn't do all the Artis did, but did a better (or lighter!) job at the particulars I actually needed at the time.

In my particular case, for those gigs where I really want a clonewheel (i.e. where rompler organs won't do), they are generally also gigs where I use more than two boards, so that can change the entire calculus.



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Re: Yamaha YC61 Announced
Giancarlo Robles #3023001 01/10/20 07:41 PM
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The organ sound seems 'OK' from the vids.... really would have to sit with it for a bit and see what's possible sonically and response wise...I never trust the un-edited patches they tend to use in the demos, alot of times these instruments can be 'opened-up' soundwise with a little programming and they are a whole new ball game but right now not sure from the vids! Nice design and I bet the keybed is nice and the hardware seems solid..76 key ver. 'Has' to be coming soon..

Last edited by Legatoboy; 01/10/20 07:43 PM.

SP6, CP-50, FP-80, PX5-S, NE-5d61, XK-3, CX-3, Yamaha YUX Upright, '66 B3/Leslie 145/122
Re: Yamaha YC61 Announced
allan_evett #3023004 01/10/20 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by allan_evett
Originally Posted by N4dr0j
I wonder if it’s intentional that two of the guys in the demo are Swedish whistle


roll roll roll



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Re: Yamaha YC61 Announced
Giancarlo Robles #3023044 01/10/20 10:21 PM
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But who is number 1 ? ...
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I've known the YC61 was coming since late October and am glad to be able to talk about it finally. I haven't had my hands on one in person (they had a press event in NYC on Tuesday Jan 7 but I was down with the flu vs. bronchitis and didn't make it), but the audio and video I've heard and seen gives me high hopes for the tonewheel modeling and rotary simulation. I've worked extensively with the new CP for the past year (videos coming to MPN soon) and know from its sound quality that with these new stage-focused keyboards, Yamaha is darned serious about — ahem — pulling out all the stops.

What I have had my hands on includes the Reface YC and Organ Flutes mode on the Genos, and even via the YouTube videos that are out there, the rotary simulation on the YC61 sounds more like moving air and the drawbar tones sound ballsier. As I've written in many articles over the years, all of us clonewheelers know it's kind of mostly about the rotary effect. An excellent one will make other flaws forgivable; a poor one will undermine what might be a very good model of tonewheels, preamp, etc. Just about anything does a passable Jimmy Smith sound, but pull high drawbars and kick up to fast speed, and that's where a mediocre simulation will sound thin and squirrelly. So far, I like what I'm hearing from the YC61.

We have enough new and new-ish drawbar organs in the landscape now that perhaps it's time for another clone shootout. Now, if there were only a place online to publish it that's run by and for musicians and frequented by all the serious keyboard players ... hmm ... where could that be? 🤔 😉


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Re: Yamaha YC61 Announced
Giancarlo Robles #3023047 01/10/20 10:24 PM
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I hate to be a crybaby, but it's a cryin' shame this board doesn't have aftertouch. Like many here, I believe, I would be interested in this as a second board up top a slab piano. Since pianos typically don't have AT, it's pretty imperative to me that my second board does.

Last edited by dongna; 01/10/20 10:42 PM.
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