Guitar, not a particularly "fast" instrument

[Jedro]

Originally posted by daklander:

Uh Huh.

Six notes played relatively slowly on a guitar.

How Fast?

Poorly done to be sure but even with my slow hands it's faster than someone can play six individual notes on another instrument.

That's classic!

 

I personally do not think it evens matters what instrument facilitates faster playing, but I will put my two cents in. As a former horn player, it takes very little to play fast, particlarly legato lines because of the lack of attacking the tongue has to do. As long as you stay in the same register, your fingers do all the work. It comes down to who can move their fingers the fastest. That's why this is silly.

 

I doubt that the Breckers or Perlman would head back to the woodshed if someone told them there were guitar players out there who were faster than them.

 

I'll vouch for Michael (or Randy) Brecker being incredibly talented horn players. I recommend the '70's stuff they did as The Brecker Brothers. I do not know if the playing is faster or as fast as some of the guitar players out there.

 

I do not care how fast most musicians can play, though it does add another dimension to solos. My favorite horn player has always been Sanborn, especially the Marcus Miller-produced albums. Not necessarily blazing-quick lines. The only reason I like some fast guitar is because that is my instrument of choice and it's intriguing. Then again, Angus Young really rocks and I can definitely play faster than him.

[henryrobinett]

Sorry, I haven't read through the thread. But guitar is NOT an easy instrument to play fast on. Sax is. Brecker, Coltrane, Liebman come to mind. They'd bury our fastest. They don't have to tongue every note. Similar to our picking. It'd be like only having to pick when you wanted to accent a specific note. Trumpet is not a very easy instrument to play fast on either. It's a very hard instrument. That's probably why so many great trumpet players are assholes.

 

It's not just the picking, legato (hammer ons, pull offs) but it the focusing on two hands, doing entirely different things, to play one note, unlike piano.

[Tedster]

Originally posted by Mr Nice Jazz Guitar Guy:

Originally posted by bluestrat:

I realize that it's how the notes sound that moves folks, and not how fast they're played, and personally, I could care less about "Ingvay" . But, as a matter of physics and science, it is not physically impossible for an experienced guitar player to play as fast as an experienced horn player or violinist. It's a matter of physics, not something as subjective as talent.

Did I mention I'm an engineer, degree and everything?

 

You'd have to understand the physics of the instruments. Violin is played with a bow, picking can't match that. Horn players can play several notes without switching valves, again picking can't beat that. A few seconds of listening to Dave Valentin on flute should convince you about that instrument.

 

I don't believe piano can be played as fast as guitar. I could be wrong be from a physics standpoint, I wouldn't think so.

Yup. Meteorologist here (degree, too, including a lot of math and physics just like engineering)...and keep in mind that while "picking" a guitar might not be the same, pulloffs, hammers, tapping, stuff like that approaches technique-wise the way a sax is played. The main difference would be string decay at certain points in a particular run, which is why searching for greater sustain is the holy grail. Certain limitations in position, the way a guitar is tuned, for instance, as well (unless you've got long fingers or retune the instrument, say to thirds, which I don't). I think that's one reason why some guitar players take a liking to the pentatonic approach to soloing...you don't have to be able to palm a basketball to play it.

 

But, as mentioned before, it's not a race. I'm not fast anyway. I'm quite half-fast. I just wanna make my notes sound pretty.

[antimatter]

Is an engineer faster than a chemist?

 

What's faster, soldering surface mount caps or soldering copper pipes

 

and if we go by notes per sec or whatever, this guy blows the doors off of all those mentioned:

 

http://hjem.get2net.dk/Brofeldt/Images/harp2-w.jpg

[Jazz Guitar]

Originally posted by henryrobinett:

Sorry, I haven't read through the thread. But guitar is NOT an easy instrument to play fast on. Sax is. Brecker, Coltrane, Liebman come to mind. They'd bury our fastest. They don't have to tongue every note. Similar to our picking. It'd be like only having to pick when you wanted to accent a specific note. Trumpet is not a very easy instrument to play fast on either. It's a very hard instrument. That's probably why so many great trumpet players are assholes.

 

It's not just the picking, legato (hammer ons, pull offs) but it the focusing on two hands, doing entirely different things, to play one note, unlike piano.

Good one Henry. Although I believe trumpet players kick guitar butt quite handily. Dizzy and Hubbard come to mind.

[henryrobinett]

Originally posted by Mr Nice Jazz Guitar Guy:

Good one Henry. Although I believe trumpet players kick guitar butt quite handily. Dizzy and Hubbard come to mind.

I don't know about that. Also Clifford Brown. But have you HEARD Vai and these guys?? I mean that's some prodigious technique. Hubbard and Brownie and those guys were phenomenal but one could play their solos with some practice. INVENTING them is another matter entirely. Now can they play over changes like Rhythm Changes, Giant Steps, Cherokee is also another matter.

[doc taz]

One thing that does seem to help is using lighter strings. Some of the players mentioned here use .009's or .010's in order to achieve the lightning fast runs. That also allows one to use a lower action in the guitar, which contributes to the ease of fast playing.

 

There are exceptions to this, of course. Vernon Reid can play quite fast, yet he uses .011's. Of course, to do the legato thing, he either has to pick the first note of a three or four note sequence, or two hand tap it.

[henryrobinett]

Pat Martino's lightest string (top E) is 16 and goes from there. He doesn't exactly play slow.

[Jazz Guitar]

Originally posted by henryrobinett:

Originally posted by Mr Nice Jazz Guitar Guy:

Good one Henry. Although I believe trumpet players kick guitar butt quite handily. Dizzy and Hubbard come to mind.

I don't know about that. Also Clifford Brown. But have you HEARD Vai and these guys?? I mean that's some prodigious technique. Hubbard and Brownie and those guys were phenomenal but one could play their solos with some practice. INVENTING them is another matter entirely. Now can they play over changes like Rhythm Changes, Giant Steps, Cherokee is also another matter.

Henry, you don't think you could play some of Hubbard's really fast stuff, at speed? Or Dizzy?

Check out a young Hubbard on "THe Artistry of Freddie Hubbard". I think you'll change your mind.

We could not play that rendition of "Caravan", to be sure. Guitar and piano have a disadvantage for intervals greater than an octave. We physically have to move the horizontal position of our hands.

Horns? No problem, hit a valve. How many notes can a trumpet hit without flipping valves? Trumpet is a fast instrument.

[Tedster]

Originally posted by antimatter:

Is an engineer faster than a chemist?

 

And, what's the velocity of a swallow?

[henryrobinett]

Originally posted by Mr Nice Jazz Guitar Guy:

Henry, you don't think you could play some of Hubbard's really fast stuff, at speed? Or Dizzy?

Check out a young Hubbard on "THe Artistry of Freddie Hubbard". I think you'll change your mind.

We could not play that rendition of "Caravan", to be sure.

I'm a HUGE fan of Freddie's playing. Not of him personally, but he's probably my favorite trumpet player. I'm very familiar with that record. It was in my car for almost a year. And suddenly I can't find it. But I DO disagree with you. I have a LOT of chops. Chops is not my problem. I admire Hubbards chops, but that's not why I think he's the greatest. I've also done a lot of transcribing (mainly just by ear) of a lot of solos, Hubbard's being some of them. Not Caravan though. Perhaps I will now that I've been challenged.

 

I'm not so impressed by chops. That's the freedom that 30 years of practicing has given me. There's not much out there I think I can't play. So it's down to music. I can admire Vai and his chops and musicality. I think he CAN be very musical. I don't see any better/worse than scenario. That's the kind of musical bigotry I'd just as soon be done with. More apples and oranges.

[Dave da Dude]

I've been watching this thread for a while now.

 

I don't want to seem over simplistic, but isn't a 1/64 note a 1/64 note whether its played on a trumpet, guitar or piano?

 

Dave the Deluded

[pauldil]

Originally posted by Dave th Dude:

I've been watching this thread for a while now.

 

I don't want to seem over simplistic, but isn't a 1/64 note a 1/64 note whether its played on a trumpet, guitar or piano?

 

Dave the Deluded

Yes, unless you're in Canada. Then it's something like a 1/47 note.

[Jazz Guitar]

Originally posted by Dave th Dude:

I've been watching this thread for a while now.

 

I don't want to seem over simplistic, but isn't a 1/64 note a 1/64 note whether its played on a trumpet, guitar or piano?

 

Dave the Deluded

Yes, but depending on the tempo, one might not be able to play 1/64 notes. Thus a 1/64 note at 100 beats per minutes sounds alot like a 1/32 note at 200 beats per minute, for some reason

[Steve LeBlanc]

you guys are still going eh? silly silly...Steve Vai can play any single note line as fast as any other player on any other instrument...period.

 

It doesn't matter at all.

 

next topic?

 

 

P.S.

Henry,

I know you're giving props to Vai but I still get the impression you're downplaying his musicianship a bit...not purposely or anything but I think you might be surprised at how well he can play over Rhythm changes or Cherokee or even Giant Steps. The guy is pretty amazing, he's recording a different kind of thing right now but he can surely blow through jazz changes too.

 

blahdiblah

[henryrobinett]

Originally posted by Stephen LeBlanc:

Henry,

I know you're giving props to Vai but I still get the impression you're downplaying his musicianship a bit...not purposely or anything but I think you might be surprised at how well he can play over Rhythm changes or Cherokee or even Giant Steps. The guy is pretty amazing, he's recording a different kind of thing right now but he can surely blow through jazz changes too.

 

blahdiblah

I'd have to hear it. Playing through changes is really what makes jazz difficult. Not the chops. I haven't heard Vai play through difficult chord changes, especially of the altered dominant types. Coltrane changes are a particular bitch. And superimposing them on top of standard changes -- well if he can do that, I'd bow down publically in his honor.

 

Now he has has much CHOPS as anybody, regardless of instrument. But chops are relative. You can have a bebop guy play blistering 32nd note runs at 200 BPM but can't do hammers on/off or bends to save his life. Those are chops too.

[Steve LeBlanc]

Well Steve Vai isn't just another woodshedder, he knows music really well, I'm just saying you might be surprised at how capable he is in areas you haven't heard.

 

I'm a big Steve Vai fan, not for his chops but his creativity...he's composed some really wack, yet great stuff...he's far too often just lopped in with the Satriani's, etc. He has an audience in that shredder arena so he plays stuff for that crowd but that's not the sum of what he is as a guitar player.

 

I'm sure Vai doesn't think about how fast he can play anymore, I'm sure he stopped thinking about that a long long time ago.

[henryrobinett]

I hear you. I hear you.

[revolead]

Vai can play Paganini's Caprice No. 5 which was written for violin. And he plays it at full tempo. Enough said. This topic is officially beaten to a pulp. Next...

[henryrobinett]

But Steve, I never questioned Vai's "knowing" music. Issac Stern knows music really well too, but I seriously doubt whether he can blow on Coltrane changes. I'm not questioning Vai's musical knowledge. He transcibed Black Page as a kid fercrissakes!

 

Playing on those tunes I mentioned requires a different type of chops and ability. Not a btter/worse than thing. When I woodshed a lot I swear I have chops that might rival Vai's. But I can still suck big time on Cherokee. It's not at all about chops, once you have them. It's phrasing, timing, chord tones and their placement. Altered tones, melodic embellishments, blue notes, passing tones, substitutions and phrasing, phrasing, phrasing.

 

I'm not saying Vai can't do this. Of course he could if he worked at it. If it was sometihng he desired to do. But I'D have to hear him do it for me to be convinced he could. Doe sit matter? Not in the least.

[Steve LeBlanc]

I'm not saying Vai can't do this. Of course he could if he worked at it. If it was sometihng he desired to do. But I'D have to hear him do it for me to be convinced he could. Doe sit matter? Not in the least.

Right on, just saying he might surprise you...actually he probably would.

 

Now back to what's important...I bet I can play faster than YOU haha...yes, it might be stupid but I have been entertained by this thread.

[henryrobinett]

I have no doubt he can play faster than me. Him on his worst day and me on my best!

 

But I have to tell you, I gave Shawn Lane a run for his money when I played with him! DiMeola too! Well OK, I didn't give Al a run for his money. But I held my own!! That was a long time ago.

[flagshipmile354]

Ok but what about Allan Holdsworth. That guy is in a league by himself!! There are plenty of guys with Steve Vai chops out there but I have yet to hear one that can handle what Allan is playing.

[Blue Strat]

Originally posted by Tedster:

Originally posted by antimatter:

Is an engineer faster than a chemist?

 

And, what's the velocity of a swallow?

What do you mean? An african or european swallow?

[J J]

Originally posted by bluestrat:

Originally posted by Tedster:

Originally posted by antimatter:

Is an engineer faster than a chemist?

 

And, what's the velocity of a swallow?

What do you mean? An african or european swallow?

a six ounce bird cannot carry a one pount coconut!

[Jazz Guitar]

Originally posted by Stephen LeBlanc:

I'm sure Vai doesn't think about how fast he can play anymore, I'm sure he stopped thinking about that a long long time ago.

With all the time he now has on his hands, perhaps he could use it to think of how to make decent music? I mean sure, it might entertain 18 year olds but doesn't he get tired of entertaining 18 year olds?

[antimatter]

I like his music and I'm 37.

 

brain of a 12 year old

 

but 37 still the same.

[Dave da Dude]

MNJGG,

Yes, but depending on the tempo, one might not be able to play 1/64 notes.

Yeah, I know. I meant to mention that too, but I was in a hurry to get to an important meeting.

 

BUT, at 200 bpm, a 1/64 note is still ....

 

Dave the Anxious

[henryrobinett]

Originally posted by revolead:

Vai can play Paganini's Caprice No. 5 which was written for violin. And he plays it at full tempo. Enough said. This topic is officially beaten to a pulp. Next...

Hm. I was fortunate enough to have a great teacher when I was in the 9th grade. He taught me Paganini's Moto Perpetuo (Pertepual Motion) and Flight of the Bumlebee. I learned them up to speed back in 1973! I don't know what relevance that has re Vai reveloead. enough said

[Jazz Guitar]

Originally posted by antimatter:

I like his music and I'm 37.

 

brain of a 12 year old

 

but 37 still the same.

Forever young, good position to be in.

 

I do tend to think people raised during the heyday of M(arketing)TV (aka "M(oron)TV", etc etc) do tend to be much more tolerant of nastier sounding music. Older people who did not "tune in" don't seem to be nearly as receptive to metal, nu-metal, grunge and ©rap. Just a theory I have anyway.