Guitar, not a particularly "fast" instrument

[Jazz Guitar]

All this talk of "fretboard wizards" makes me laugh. I think we forget that relative to sax players, flute players, trumpet players, violinists....... guitar can't be played very fast.

 

I mean does anyone think Yngwie could play as many notes per second as Itzak Perlman? Anyone think Vai could keep up with Mike Brecker?

[J J]

Originally posted by Mr Nice Jazz Guitar Guy:

All this talk of "fretboard wizards" makes me laugh. I think we forget that relative to sax players, flute players, trumpet players, violinists....... guitar can't be played very fast.

 

I mean does anyone think Yngwie could play as many notes per second as Itzak Perlman? Anyone think Vai could keep up with Mike Brecker?

Well the fact is is that they're playing it on a guitar, not a sax or a flute. So you've got to keep that in mind when you're watching or hearing them, it's on a guitar. And i do agree that you dont need to be fast to be good. Yngwie, for example, is faster than most guitar players, you cant (in my opinion) just automatically compair him to a saxist or a flue player. And thats the reason why people give him so much credit, is because it is on a guitar. And yes, the guitar isn't particularly a fast instrument

[Darklava]

Originally posted by Mr Nice Jazz Guitar Guy:

All this talk of "fretboard wizards" makes me laugh. I think we forget that relative to sax players, flute players, trumpet players, violinists....... guitar can't be played very fast.

 

I mean does anyone think Yngwie could play as many notes per second as Itzak Perlman? Anyone think Vai could keep up with Mike Brecker?

I don't look at it that way,it's not a sport.

But I do like Vai not just because he's fast

he has some great songs.Why does that bother

you so much that some guitar player's play fast?

I try to appreciate all musicians and music,fast

or slow,schooled or not.Feel it in your soul.

[Blue Strat]

I can't really see how guitar is a slower instrument than any other. It still comes down to the individual player. Does it take longer for a player's pick to make one 1/8" stroke than it takes a sax player to blow a puff of air? I think not. Violin? The same thought process and muscle reaction has to take place as moving your pick hand, so it just doesn't add up that they're faster than a guitar player either. In fact, the violin player has to move a heavier object and overcome it's inertia, so they're probably slower.

[Caevan O’Shite]

I think that what MrJGG's getting at (correct me if I'm wrong) is that amongst guitar players in particular, and fans of rock/pop/jazz styles in general- where the guitar is often a focal point- a lot of talk of the fastest and bestest goes on, while other instruments and their players- some of which are harder to burn on, some of which are not- go largely underappreciated.

 

Kinda like the rampant success of, say, Pro Wrestling or NASCAR, while there's real Martial Arts mastery or Formula Racing going on elsewhere, with less attention paid... (I'm using extreme, exaggerating examples to make my point here; don't take it too seriously, or to heart!)

 

That's not to slam guitar, or Vai or Malmsteen (or Jimmy Page or Keith Richards); it's just putting all the bickering, bantering, and bruehaha in perspective.

[Jazz Guitar]

Originally posted by bluestrat:

I can't really see how guitar is a slower instrument than any other. It still comes down to the individual player. Does it take longer for a player's pick to make one 1/8" stroke than it takes a sax player to blow a puff of air? I think not. Violin? The same thought process and muscle reaction has to take place as moving your pick hand, so it just doesn't add up that they're faster than a guitar player either. In fact, the violin player has to move a heavier object and overcome it's inertia, so they're probably slower.

Have you ever listened to a Mike Brecker or John Coltrane solo? Ever see Itzak Perlman on TV? Ever hear Dizzy or Hubbard play trumpet?

 

Sorry, guitar can't be played that fast. Not fast duz work

[Blue Strat]

I realize that it's how the notes sound that moves folks, and not how fast they're played, and personally, I could care less about "Ingvay" . But, as a matter of physics and science, it is not physically impossible for an experienced guitar player to play as fast as an experienced horn player or violinist. It's a matter of physics, not something as subjective as talent.

[Jazz Guitar]

Originally posted by bluestrat:

I realize that it's how the notes sound that moves folks, and not how fast they're played, and personally, I could care less about "Ingvay" . But, as a matter of physics and science, it is not physically impossible for an experienced guitar player to play as fast as an experienced horn player or violinist. It's a matter of physics, not something as subjective as talent.

Did I mention I'm an engineer, degree and everything?

 

You'd have to understand the physics of the instruments. Violin is played with a bow, picking can't match that. Horn players can play several notes without switching valves, again picking can't beat that. A few seconds of listening to Dave Valentin on flute should convince you about that instrument.

 

I don't believe piano can be played as fast as guitar. I could be wrong be from a physics standpoint, I wouldn't think so.

[Blue Strat]

Originally posted by Mr Nice Jazz Guitar Guy:

Did I mention I'm an engineer, degree and everything?

 

You'd have to understand the physics of the instruments. Violin is played with a bow, picking can't match that. Horn players can play several notes without switching valves, again picking can't beat that. A few seconds of listening to Dave Valentin on flute should convince you about that instrument.

 

I don't believe piano can be played as fast as guitar. I could be wrong be from a physics standpoint, I wouldn't think so.

I'm also an engineer, with a degree.

 

The bow of the violin is in constant contact with the strings, that's true, but the amount of time it takes to change the direction of the pick when playing guitar isn't the issue. For a good guitarist, that's practically nothing, we're talking milli-seconds, if not micro-seconds. It's how fast your brain works that determines how fast you play your instrument. It's reaction time.

 

I'm also talking individual notes, so there goes the flute and horn players.

[revorhythm]

well also putting picking aside, fretting hand movements on a guitar and violin are practically the same, so really not speaking of how the strings are vibrating, but how they are fretted a guitar player and violinist or fiddle player have the same speed.

[Blue Strat]

Guitarists are so fast they can play six notes at once!

[Jazz Guitar]

Originally posted by revorhythm:

well also putting picking aside, fretting hand movements on a guitar and violin are practically the same, so really not speaking of how the strings are vibrating, but how they are fretted a guitar player and violinist or fiddle player have the same speed.

There's the bow vs a pick, plus the notes are spaced much closer together plus there's no frets. Sorry, violin wins by a landslide. Go listen to Itzak Perlman, then come back.

[antimatter]

http://www.arches.uga.edu/~cfm/page3.jpg

[DanG]

To be honest its not something I've ever thought about... Jim Hall, he's the master... on The Bridge, you don't consider the speed or lack of it as an issue when playing with Rollins, his playing is in the pocket and thats it.

 

MNJGG, why all the technique questions? This is not meant as a start up to an argument but chops are nothing really, just the icing... note choice and rhythmn matter.

[Sylver]

I think this may be the silliest thread ever.

[Teahead]

Technique is usually the thing you use to entertain people while you, and they, are waiting for the next hit record to roll off the fretboard! For some it's all they've got.

Tea.

[Caevan O’Shite]

Originally posted by Sylver:

"I think this may be the silliest thread ever."

It started out as commentary rgarding silly threads and what fuels them, and has devolved into being one.

[revolead]

Actually I believe in some guitar styles one can play as fast as any other instrument. Don't forget two-hand tapping and Van Halen. I think he proved you can guitar as fast as any other instrument. And wanking aside, phyically it is much easy to switch between a fifth and a root on guitar than it is on trumpet. At least from my experience. Don't forget wind instruments have lip and air movements involved, which also inhibits they're speed.

[Jazz Guitar]

Originally posted by revolead:

Actually I believe in some guitar styles one can play as fast as any other instrument. Don't forget two-hand tapping and Van Halen. I think he proved you can guitar as fast as any other instrument. And wanking aside, phyically it is much easy to switch between a fifth and a root on guitar than it is on trumpet. At least from my experience. Don't forget wind instruments have lip and air movements involved, which also inhibits they're speed.

Sorry, aint no guitar player on this planet that could keep up with Mike Brecker. It's not going to happen.

 

An old Brecker Brothers favorite of mine from 1978 might do well to convince you, "Funky Sea, Funky Dew". Oh does Mr Mike wail on that one. I've seen a written transcription btw.

 

PS I'd love to see EVH do battle with Itzak Perlman on violin. I'd pay big money to see that actually.

[Caevan O’Shite]

Originally posted by Mr Nice Jazz Guitar Guy:

"I'd love to see EVH do battle with Itzak Perlman on violin. I'd pay big money to see that actually."

I'd much rather hear them work out some good music together, especially if they were encouraged to do whatever they wanted to, with no pressure on time or other constraints.

 

Something tells me that both of them would think a "battle" was pointless.

 

Itzak is a musician of no mean abilities, and like him or not, Van Halen is not incapable of playing his instrument. I would imagine that they could work well together.

 

Again, I thought the opening post was pointing towards the absurdity of all such "speed burner" arguments, not the glove-slap challenge to continue more of the same... let's let this thread slide away to obscurity, please?

[Beagle1]

 

First, I am going to take for granted that you are speaking strictly about playing single-note runs on a guitar. Because if you consider a fast-tempo solo guitar piece that uses the full polyphonic capabilities of the guitar, then your argument doesn't really hold up.

 

So, if we're talking single-note runs, then in general I'd be inclined to agree with you...but with a few notable exceptions: namely Allan Holdsworth, Frank Gambale, and Shawn Lane (RIP). Also, don't forget that many of the 24 Paganini violin caprices (some of the most technically demanding pieces in the violin repertoire) have been transcribed and played by classical guitarists (e.g Eliot Fisk). So IMHO violin and guitar are not so far apart as you think. Sax may be a different story, I agree.

[Djinn1973]

Originally posted by Mr Nice Jazz Guitar Guy:

I mean does anyone think Yngwie could play as many notes per second as Itzak Perlman? Anyone think Vai could keep up with Mike Brecker?

Yes, and yes...

Really, I have seen some extremely fast guitar players that could keep up with Purlman (even in his prime) but on a guitar that kind of speed just seems self indulgent so I think that "we" have moved away from playing or trying to play that fast. It was popular for quite some time tho.

[michael saulnier]

Man, is THIS discussion pointless!

 

 

guitplayer

[revorhythm]

i dont know man i think your underestimating the capabilities of some guitar players

[Jazz Guitar]

Originally posted by revorhythm:

i dont know man i think your underestimating the capabilities of some guitar players

Perhaps, in the interim, kindly listen to my new clip.

 

http://www.ic-musicmedia.com/artist_pages/songpage.php?mp3id=100030

[WaterMan]

Originally posted by Mr Nice Jazz Guitar Guy:

Originally posted by revorhythm:

i dont know man i think your underestimating the capabilities of some guitar players

Perhaps, in the interim, kindly listen to my new clip.

 

http://www.ic-musicmedia.com/artist_pages/songpage.php?mp3id=100030

OK. Sounds pretty damn good. Who's playing, really?

[Steve LeBlanc]

This is a dumb thread

 

ah but since I bothered to read most of it, I'll go ahead and answer the question.

 

Yes Vai can play on the guitar any single line passage Brecker can on the sax...I'm fairly certain of that. Just for the record.

 

Greg Howe can play single note lines that I don't think any Sax player could play because of the range he covers...the guy uses all ten fingers on his fretboard...he's amazing.

 

So taking this topic as technically as possible (because any other approach is dumb since this isn't really a musical discussion)...I believe the more skilled guitar players on this earth are able to play as fast or faster than any other instrument...well, maybe except keyboard.

 

er, I don't have an engineering degree but you don't seriously think that helps your argument here do you?

 

Steve Vai is a true master of the guitar...I'm sure he can play pretty much ANYTHING he wants to on it...if he can't right away he'll work until he can. You're obviously not very familiar with his body of work.

 

oh and since I took the time to listen thinking it might relate to the topic somehow I have to comment on your music clip. It's kinda lame, maybe if it was longer I'd have some idea what the soloist is trying to say. Who is Conan anyway?

[Dak Lander]

Uh Huh.

Six notes played relatively slowly on a guitar.

How Fast?

Poorly done to be sure but even with my slow hands it's faster than someone can play six individual notes on another instrument.

[Steve LeBlanc]

hehe

[Dak Lander]

Originally posted by Mr Nice Jazz Guitar Guy:

Did I mention I'm an engineer, degree and everything?

That & a buck will get you a cup of coffee. Shit, if you're really on the down and outs as an engineer, which you probably are, you can get the coffee free at the local soup kitchen. I'm sure there's one close to where you live.