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Guitar, not a particularly "fast" instrument


Jazz Guitar

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Originally posted by bluestrat:

Originally posted by Tedster:

Originally posted by antimatter:

Is an engineer faster than a chemist?

 

And, what's the velocity of a swallow?
What do you mean? An african or european swallow?
Well, er, hmm er...I don't know AAAAAAAGHGHGHGHGHGHGH!!!!
"Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine"
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Originally posted by henryrobinett:

Originally posted by revolead:

My (non-existent) Lamborghini is fast? Does that make me cool?

:confused: Do I detect a tad bit of hostility?
Trying to move the topic on. I'm not for or against fast playing, I even do enough wanking myself. But honestly, the Monty Python quotes have proven one thing: This topic is dead!
Shut up and play.
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Originally posted by Mr Nice Jazz Guitar Guy:

"I do tend to think people raised during the heyday of M(arketing)TV (aka "M(oron)TV", etc etc) do tend to be much more tolerant of nastier sounding music. Older people who did not "tune in" don't seem to be nearly as receptive to metal, nu-metal, grunge and ©rap. Just a theory I have anyway."

I don't care for MTV, and usually never did. I also take most music on the basis of whether it grabs me, or not. I don't hear a lot of newer rock that gets me all that interested, but that's not to say there's nothing there that catches my ear.

 

As for jazz stylings like "Be-Bop", "Cool", and later trends and genres, Louis Armstrong didn't seem to think too much of most of it! The age/times/styles thing is never-ending, relative, and pointless.

Ask yourself- What Would Ren and Stimpy Do?

 

~ Caevan James-Michael Miller-O'Shite ~

_ ___ _ Leprechaun, Esquire _ ___ _

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revolead,

My (non-existent) Lamborghini is fast? Does that make me cool?
Only if you can take a corner at 100 mph with all four tires sliding to the outside of the curve, kicking up a little dust cloud at the apex of the turn as you get on the throttle in third gear and accelerate up to 180 mph on the straightaway before gearing down for the hairpin turn :D:cool:

 

Dave the (Non) Driver

Gotta' geetar... got the amp. There must be SOMEthing else I... "need".
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Originally posted by Dave th Dude:

revolead,

My (non-existent) Lamborghini is fast? Does that make me cool?
Only if you can take a corner at 100 mph with all four tires sliding to the outside of the curve, kicking up a little dust cloud at the apex of the turn as you get on the throttle in third gear and accelerate up to 180 mph on the straightaway before gearing down for the hairpin turn :D:cool:

 

Dave the (Non) Driver

I could on Need for Speed. Does that count?

 

And just FYI, the Lambroghini Murcielago is fully capable of doing this.

Shut up and play.
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Originally posted by Dave th Dude:

revolead,

And just FYI, the Lambroghini Murcielago is fully capable of doing this.
But, are you? :D

 

Dave the Dubious

Buy me a Murcielago and I'll show you. Base price only $283,000. You could sell some of your guitars. :D
Shut up and play.
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Originally posted by Mr Nice Jazz Guitar Guy:

Henry, you don't think you could play some of Hubbard's really fast stuff, at speed? Or Dizzy?

Check out a young Hubbard on "THe Artistry of Freddie Hubbard". I think you'll change your mind.

We could not play that rendition of "Caravan", to be sure. Guitar and piano have a disadvantage for intervals greater than an octave. We physically have to move the horizontal position of our hands.

Horns? No problem, hit a valve. How many notes can a trumpet hit without flipping valves? Trumpet is a fast instrument.

OK, I found this cut in my car!!. Listen, I'm not TRYING to be cocky here. I really am not. But this doesn't sound that difficult. A couple of passages might be trick.I'll learn it when I get a minute and maybe post it somewhere to prove I did it. I'm preparing a bunch of transcriptions of a lot of Chick Corea charts for an upcoming concert.

 

BUT . . . if you think that's impossible to do on guitar, do yourself a favor a listen to VAI. He could eat that up, as a transcription. No problem.

All the best,

 

Henry Robinett

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Originally posted by henryrobinett:

Originally posted by Mr Nice Jazz Guitar Guy:

Henry, you don't think you could play some of Hubbard's really fast stuff, at speed? Or Dizzy?

Check out a young Hubbard on "THe Artistry of Freddie Hubbard". I think you'll change your mind.

We could not play that rendition of "Caravan", to be sure. Guitar and piano have a disadvantage for intervals greater than an octave. We physically have to move the horizontal position of our hands.

Horns? No problem, hit a valve. How many notes can a trumpet hit without flipping valves? Trumpet is a fast instrument.

OK, I found this cut in my car!!. Listen, I'm not TRYING to be cocky here. I really am not. But this doesn't sound that difficult. A couple of passages might be trick.I'll learn it when I get a minute and maybe post it somewhere to prove I did it. I'm preparing a bunch of transcriptions of a lot of Chick Corea charts for an upcoming concert.

 

BUT . . . if you think that's impossible to do on guitar, do yourself a favor a listen to VAI. He could eat that up, as a transcription. No problem.

Dang Henry you've jammed with the big boys.

I'm honored to be in the same forum with you.

You are a stud. :wave:

The story of life is quicker then the blink of an eye, the story of love is hello, goodbye.
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Originally posted by henryrobinett:

Originally posted by Mr Nice Jazz Guitar Guy:

Henry, you don't think you could play some of Hubbard's really fast stuff, at speed? Or Dizzy?

Check out a young Hubbard on "THe Artistry of Freddie Hubbard". I think you'll change your mind.

We could not play that rendition of "Caravan", to be sure. Guitar and piano have a disadvantage for intervals greater than an octave. We physically have to move the horizontal position of our hands.

Horns? No problem, hit a valve. How many notes can a trumpet hit without flipping valves? Trumpet is a fast instrument.

OK, I found this cut in my car!!. Listen, I'm not TRYING to be cocky here. I really am not. But this doesn't sound that difficult. A couple of passages might be trick.I'll learn it when I get a minute and maybe post it somewhere to prove I did it. I'm preparing a bunch of transcriptions of a lot of Chick Corea charts for an upcoming concert.

 

BUT . . . if you think that's impossible to do on guitar, do yourself a favor a listen to VAI. He could eat that up, as a transcription. No problem.

Sorry, but Vai doesn't have that kind of speed, and he is especially LACKING in terms of jazz timing. Actually, the point is rather moot because Vai cannot play jazz. I've heard a few horrible attempts he made, that made me laugh in short order. Swing and lagging the beat are something that have eluded him all these years.
Have you recorded an MP3 today?
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Yes, but the question wasn't whether he could play jazz or not. The question was speed. Whether he can play jazz or not IS moot. I don't think he can either, but that's totally beside the point. Neither could Arthur Rubinstein. So what?

All the best,

 

Henry Robinett

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I thought this thread had died and gone away :rolleyes:

 

The guitar is an excellent instrument that is not as easy to learn is it may look (I think we all know this to various extents, but it can be backed up with facts as well), that can play a wide range of chords. This fact sets it in a class of instruments (based on function) that the sax or trumpet or oboe are just not in. Violin and similarly stringed instruments can play a surprising number of chords (check out an orchestration book and prepare for shock if you hadn't thought about it already) but it is no match for the chord capacity of guitar. As it was originally designed the guitar is the perfect singer accompaniment tool. It took Mauro Guiliani to turn it into a respectable solo instrument and hammer out the way to do standard notation on the instrument. Further composer/performers pushed the instrument further into respectablility.

 

The use of the guitar to play single note lines (as opposed to the way it is used in most classical or delta blues settings or other settings) is a recent development, as is the invention of the solidbody electric guitar a recent invention. The proper technique is still being worked out to some extent, that is why you have prominent guitarists experimenting with ideas like "economy picking" and "circluar" picking and everything else.

 

As to the instrument's "speed" in comparision to other instruments, are we talking about running a marathon or sprinting or medium distance racing? The orchestration books I read make it a point to allow for the horn and reed players to get chances to breath and catch thier breath. With that in mind, I'd bet too much "circular breathing" might be the musical equivolent of "economy picking" or "all hammer-ons all the time" playing in that musically it may not sound as good as standard playing. If we compare guitars speed to an instrument dedicated to playing single notes, do we look at a five minute "perpetual motion" piece? We'd win because we don't have to stop to breath, except the violin would probably kick our ass, and the piano might be a dead heat. By the end of the night of these races, who's still going strong and who is out of breath-- I don't know, but it is just as fair a question as wondering who gets out the starting gate faster, which is the usual way of looking at speed.

 

Finally, how fast do you want to go, and how much work are you willing to put into it? Roy Eldridge played really fast trumpet after working his ass off. The hours guys like he, and Coltrane, and Joe Henderson, and Clifford Brown etc is just astonishing, and they did it year after year hour after hour working on single note lines (as that is what their instrument is limited to). But Elliot Fisk is wicked fast on guitar, as is Pat Martino and Vai and Johnny Winter for that matter. The is a guitar teacher in NJ called Eric Horn, and to show his students that hard work is the only way to speed on guitar he would play an A minor arpeggio over and over from open A to 17th fret on the E, clean and perfect and everything and as he spoke about it he'd get faster and faster and faster. You're young jaw would drop, and he'd still get faster. You'd concentrate to hear the riff because there must be a trick, and as close as you could listen it was perfect. It was perfect until he got the point where all you could hear was the attack of the pick on the string, because as the note went through it's attack/decay envelop he'd be on to the next note and he was faster than the strings ability to react to the picking it seemed. Unbelievably fast-- but I'm sure he isn't the only one to acheive "Ludicrious Speed". Guys that studied with him still worship the guy not just for being a monster player but for being a great teacher and guide. I don't really care who is faster or what instrument is faster, I do know that if you work at it you could play the guitar as fast as you want to, and as fast as you can get it to go. I'm not saying I can ;) but I know it can be done.

check out some comedy I've done:

http://louhasspoken.tumblr.com/

My Unitarian Jihad Name: Brother Broadsword of Enlightened Compassion.

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Right on the money. Just to be clear, I'm not concerned with speed, really, except that a lot of the music I play requires it, unless I want to "lay out". I don't believe in the guitar as sport metaphor and I generally think people are barking up the wrong tree when they seek this as an end in itself.

 

That said guitar, like every instrument, has it's peculiarity's. Not talking about perpetual motion or being able to sustain speed for long durations. I think that's another thing. Obviously anyone can play as fast as anyone else given the amount of practice, what is practiced and given ability. But in jazz circles, the sax is known as a "fast" instrument, for reasons I explained earlier. Trumpet is not. The whole design of the instrument, force to blow, lips, various positions to play three notes. It's all in the lips.

 

I've practiced out of various violin method books. I know what you mean about chords there. My point is one has too know the technical pitfalls and difficulties either now or later, to an given instrument if one desires to master it.

All the best,

 

Henry Robinett

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holy dog shit, i thought this thing had gone to hell. but this just proves something can go to hell and come back again. seriously though, my god. yeah maybe the guitar cant play as fast as a trumpet or violin. but shit, all you do is bitch and bring up another song Vai couldnt play, then somebody says yeah Vai could play that, now your bringin up differences in genre. well yeah maybe Vai cant play jazz. but if i heard a trumpet or violin behind bad religion, or Social Distortion, id probably flip. the fact is SPEED. Maybe the guitar isnt the fuckin fastest instrument, but it is FAST. live with it!
hot girls, fast cars, and even louder guitars
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Originally posted by stranger:

I'm guessing Mr' Jazz guy hasn't listened to much grindcore or death/black metal.

I'm guessing you wouldn't know the difference between Segovia and Itzak Perlman.

 

I'm guessing you've never seen the inside of Music Theory 101 Class either, like 99% of your talent-free heros.

Have you recorded an MP3 today?
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Originally posted by Mr Nice Jazz Guitar Guy:

I'm guessing you've never seen the inside of Music Theory 101 Class either, like 99% of your talent-free heros.

Whoa! I'm on your side, or I thought I was. But it's comments like this that help give jazz a bad name.

All the best,

 

Henry Robinett

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Originally posted by Mr Nice Jazz Guitar Guy:

Originally posted by stranger:

I'm guessing Mr' Jazz guy hasn't listened to much grindcore or death/black metal.

I'm guessing you wouldn't know the difference between Segovia and Itzak Perlman.

 

I'm guessing you've never seen the inside of Music Theory 101 Class either, like 99% of your talent-free heros.

And without these, one can't play or appreciate jazz or classical?

 

Besides, all that stranger was getting at, I think, was that possibly in those genres there may be guitarists that play music which approaches the quickness of other instruments.

Everybody knows rock attained perfection in 1974. It's a scientific fact. - Homer Simpson
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Originally posted by henryrobinett:

Originally posted by Mr Nice Jazz Guitar Guy:

I'm guessing you've never seen the inside of Music Theory 101 Class either, like 99% of your talent-free heros.

Whoa! I'm on your side, or I thought I was. But it's comments like this that help give jazz a bad name.
I was responding to:

"I'm guessing Mr' Jazz guy hasn't listened to much grindcore or death/black metal."

 

As you might imagine, an intelligent response would be wasted on such a person.

Have you recorded an MP3 today?
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Originally posted by Jedro:

Originally posted by Mr Nice Jazz Guitar Guy:

Originally posted by stranger:

I'm guessing Mr' Jazz guy hasn't listened to much grindcore or death/black metal.

I'm guessing you wouldn't know the difference between Segovia and Itzak Perlman.

 

I'm guessing you've never seen the inside of Music Theory 101 Class either, like 99% of your talent-free heros.

And without these, one can't play or appreciate jazz or classical?

 

Besides, all that stranger was getting at, I think, was that possibly in those genres there may be guitarists that play music which approaches the quickness of other instruments.

Implicit in that comment is someone "thinks" metal hacks have some kind of monopoly on speed and technique, which contains about as much truth as a GW Bush State of the Union address.

 

Again, that self centered smuggness of young metal hacks annoys me. Of course maybe 1 in 100 will ever become a musician.

Have you recorded an MP3 today?
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Originally posted by skipclone 1:

Jazz cats aren`t exactly known for being open minded about other genres. I have two uncles who are perfect examples. I think it would be great if more people got off that nonsense.

Perhaps you should listen to my fusion clip if you mistakenly have me pegged as an archtop only guy.
Have you recorded an MP3 today?
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I'd like to hear coltrane play some guitar licks. But, really, who cares, it's either good or bad, and you either like it or you don't. I happen to love fast guitar, I also respect soloists and songwriters on all instruments. Frankly, I just love music in general. Check out these cat's and break out your axe. I've played many a trombone and trumpet lick on my bass, at the advice of Jeff Berlin; sax and trumpet players can learn from the guitars vertical thinking, too.

 

http://www.chrisruel.com

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Originally posted by Mr Nice Jazz Guitar Guy:

Originally posted by skipclone 1:

Jazz cats aren`t exactly known for being open minded about other genres. I have two uncles who are perfect examples. I think it would be great if more people got off that nonsense.

Perhaps you should listen to my fusion clip if you mistakenly have me pegged as an archtop only guy.
looking forward to that...

Same old surprises, brand new cliches-

 

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www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandid=602491

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