E major with sharp 9?????

[Garrafon]

Ok, maybe I'm missing something (ok, I know, I'm missing LOTS of things), but, anyway, I was having a discussion without someone the other day about a song (Molly Hatchet's version of Dream's Ill Never See (originally done by the Allman's)) and we were discussing a chord (the first time in the first verse where they do the hits (I know that is very non-descriptive, but what else can I say the vocal line is "Cause I'm hung up, on dreams, I'm never gonna see, yeah" and the chord comes in around the word "gonna").

 

Irrespective of what the actual chord is (that's not the point of this thread), he said he heard an E major with a sharp 9. I've never heard of such a thing. It doesn't make sense to me. To me it seems like someone who can't decide whether the chord is major or minor.

 

Anyone have any thoughts on this? Does such a chord really exist (forgetting the fact that you can create any chord you want by mashing any notes together).

[jimmymio]

Never heard the hatchet version but always loved the one by the Allman's. Very common chord in certain styles of music. James Brown could play an entire song based on that one chord. My hunch is that now that you've discovered it you will start to find it everywhere.

JP

[InfoSal]

It's probably an E7 #9. The #9 is a common alteration on Dominant V7 chords. Some people call it the "Jimmy Hendrix chord" like on his tune Purple Haze or what Foxy Lady. Horace Silver liked to use Dominant 7th #9 chords in his funkier tunes. The scale that gets associated with the chord can be an E blues scale or in jazz either the Diminished Scale or the Altered Scale depending if the 13th is flatted or not.

[jimmymio]

Originally posted by garrafon:

To me it seems like someone who can't decide whether the chord is major or minor.

I don't really see it this way. You will almost always find the raised 9th voiced as an upper extension. The chord definitely functions as a dominant (major) chord. The raised nine provides a flavor, almost gut wrenching in this case.

JP

[Garrafon]

Thanks for your response. So, given what seems to me to be a "conflict" between the minor and major 3rd (#9 and the major 3rd), is there a preferred voicing for this chord?

[InfoSal]

Ideal voicing on piano, from the bottom up:

 

E, G# D G

 

Think of the #9 as a blues note that adds a bite to the voicing.

[Garrafon]

Originally posted by jimmymio:

You will almost always find the raised 9th voiced as an upper extension. The chord definitely functions as a dominant (major) chord. The raised nine provides a flavor, almost gut wrenching in this case.

JP

Yes, it has a cool sound (I guess the clashing that I'm describing). So, you think it best to play the raised 9th on top? (you said as an "upper extension")

[Blue JC]

E7#9

 

James Brown, Prince, Tower of Power, et al use it to groove on. It has that major/minor feel usually voiced G#-B-D-G. The 4th on top gives it that wide-open, not quite major, not quite minor feel.

 

I use them a lot on soul tunes and you will hear them a lot in horn sections. Also sometimes used as passing chords - usually with an altered 5th (E7#5#9 or E7b5#9).

 

Best,

JC

[Billdar]

Garrafon,

 

You'll hear that chord a lot in blues, funk, and jazz. I think that it's most commonly played with the sharp 9th as the high note in the chord, with the major third as the low note. Hence, an E7#9 is: G#, B, D, G with the root (E) implied or played with the left hand. And sometimes it's played without the 7th, like: G#, B, E, G.

 

Hope that this helps!

 

Bill

 

Bill

[area51recording]

Ahh the Hendrix chord....I like to voice it 3-b7-b10(#9) and move it around chromatically...makes for some nice "out" sounding stuff.

[Byrdman]

Originally posted by InfoSal:

Ideal voicing on piano, from the bottom up:

 

E, G# D G

 

Gack. There's no way I can stretch that with my right hand. And with the left its kind of high.

 

I would just play G# B D G if comping this with the right hand and I would just lose the sharp nine in the left hand as glomming the G and G# together loses the #9 quality.

[Garrafon]

Thanks guys! That's really helpful.

[MidLifeCrisis]

I actually play a 9th there. Voicing (F#, G#, B, D) over and octave E with the left hand.

I love that tune BTW. Its amazing how well it goes over. It's one of our most popular tunes as far as audience reaction.

[Garrafon]

Originally posted by MidLifeCrisis:

I actually play a 9th there. Voicing (F#, G#, B, D) over and octave E with the left hand.

I love that tune BTW. Its amazing how well it goes over. It's one of our most popular tunes as far as audience reaction.

That song does rock. We were discussing playing it and just chatting about the chords (without a piano) in front of me. I guess my greenness shows, but I never (intentionally) played this chord.

 

Midlife, you think it is a regular 9th, huh (not sharp)? To be honest, I haven't listened to the song in a long time, so I can't remember. I'll have to get me a copy from somewhere and give it a listen.

[musicalaccents]

Yeah, listen to Shining Star by Earth, Eind, & Fire. Really prevelant in that tune. You can also call this an E Altered Chord. On a chart it would read E Alt

[wmp]

Originally posted by Byrdman:

Originally posted by InfoSal:

Ideal voicing on piano, from the bottom up:

 

E, G# D G

 

Gack. There's no way I can stretch that with my right hand. And with the left its kind of high.

 

Just play the 3, 7 and #9 in the right hand.

 

There's a lot of stuff that just can't be played without this chord. A particularly tasty usage is the intro to Peg (Steely Dan).

[Richard Lainhart]

A very common and easy-to-reach left-hand voicing in a jazz context would be G#, D, G (F##, strictly speaking), leaving out the root and letting the bass player get it. You can also use this exact same voicing for dominant 13th chords - a Bb 13, in this case.

 

 

Originally posted by Byrdman:

Originally posted by InfoSal:

Ideal voicing on piano, from the bottom up:

 

E, G# D G

 

Gack. There's no way I can stretch that with my right hand. And with the left its kind of high.

 

I would just play G# B D G if comping this with the right hand and I would just lose the sharp nine in the left hand as glomming the G and G# together loses the #9 quality.

[wmp]

The Allman's version of Dreams is a lazy swing feel and Molly Hatchet's is a four on the floor rock march.

[Dave Horne]

I'm sure most of us have given some thought about this chord when notating it on paper. We almost never write the actual #9 (F##), though as far as chord symbols go, we do. (The #9 for a chord with an E root would really be F## and not G.)

 

I only mention this because of the other thread with the demented, sorry, diminished 7th chord. Students will often insist on a particular spelling of the chord and when you ask about the specific interval (dim 7th or #9), they just shrug their shoulders ... or accuse you of being picky.

[DanL]

We do Dreams in our band. It's a 3/4 meter. I never heard the Hatchet version. The chord is definitely a 7#9 on those hits.

mp3

[MidLifeCrisis]

Originally posted by DanL:

We do Dreams in our band. It's a 3/4 meter. I never heard the Hatchet version. The chord is definitely a 7#9 on those hits.

mp3

I'll have to try the sharp 9 on that. Its hard to tell what is correct there since the entire band accents those hits. I am also smearing down a palm wipe on each of those hits so there is an almost instant mixture going on immediately after the base chord.

The blend with the 9 seems to fit well with what everyone else is doing. I'll let you know my impressions of the #9 after I give it a try this weekend.

[BluesKeys]

I love the #9 because of the tension it gives. It just begs for a resolve. In Gary Moore's Still Got the Blues (my fav guitar song) most guitar players miss that chord at the end of the verse.

 

You can also open the E7#9 up with G# D G with left had playing the root. Then half step down your chord while using the circle of 4ths in you left hand for fun transition turn arounds in the key of G. It is 6 2 5 1 but with zing.

[Trill]

I love the chord also, use it all the time. Great funk,Jazz and blues chord. I agree with Richart Lainharts voicing as the one I like the best G#- D- F##(G) and I usually hit the E with the left hand.

[InfoSal]

Originally posted by Byrdman:

Originally posted by InfoSal:

Ideal voicing on piano, from the bottom up:

 

E, G# D G

 

Gack. There's no way I can stretch that with my right hand. And with the left its kind of high.

 

I

That there comma indicates the split between the two hands (the two hands are the left and the right hand).

[Mr. Nightime]

Originally posted by MidLifeCrisis:

Originally posted by DanL:

We do Dreams in our band. It's a 3/4 meter. I never heard the Hatchet version. The chord is definitely a 7#9 on those hits.

mp3

I'll have to try the sharp 9 on that. Its hard to tell what is correct there since the entire band accents those hits. I am also smearing down a palm wipe on each of those hits so there is an almost instant mixture going on immediately after the base chord.

The blend with the 9 seems to fit well with what everyone else is doing. I'll let you know my impressions of the #9 after I give it a try this weekend.

The Allman Bros version of Dreams (3/4) has what I consider the perfect organ sound. I love the C3 chorale with the slow Leslie.

 

As far as the Hatchett version, put the #9 on top, both in the E7 #9 and A7 #9. I use to voicing that has been mentioned several times; G#-B-D-G with the bass guitar handling the root. Sometimes I'll leave out the G#.

This chord is used a lot. I'll use it in Ted Nugent's "Hey Baby". I'll even use it in the blues. It adds some really nice tension when used correctly.

[wmp]

The note to leave out is the B. 7#9 needs no steenking 5. Without the G# it's an Em7.

[JeffLearman]

Originally posted by wmp:

The note to leave out is the B. 7#9 needs no steenking 5. Without the G# it's an Em7.

+1 !

[JeffLearman]

Originally posted by garrafon:

Thanks for your response. So, given what seems to me to be a "conflict" between the minor and major 3rd (#9 and the major 3rd), is there a preferred voicing for this chord?

This is definitely a dissonant chord -- intentionally so. Like BluesKeys says, it begs to be resolved. That's one of the fun things about Hendrix's Purple Haze, is it does NOT get resolved, just leaves you out there on a jag in the haze man.

 

It's not quite the half-tone dissonance you'd get if you (ugh) tried to play major 3rd and minor 3rd in the same octave. However, anyone playing higher than the sharp 9 can make EITHER minor or major 3rd work. And it either does or doesn't in the context of the other notes in the line. Quite a sandbox, frankly. Psst: don't tell Coltrane, he never figured that out. (OK, just kidding.)

 

And that (1)-3-7-#9 voicing is definitely the classic voicing, on both keyboard and guitar. (I put the 1 in parens because it isn't necessary to play if someone else is.)

 

It may not be the chord in the Molly Hatchett song, I wouldn't know.

[Dave Eskridge]

You get the same kind of 'grind' out of a mi7(13) chord: like bottom up D - A - (middle)C - F - B, with or without another D on top. If the E7(#9) is the "Purple Haze" chord, then I guess you'd call the Dmi7(13) the "Sex Machine" chord. (I might have the key wrong - I don't remember).

[DanL]

Originally posted by MidLifeCrisis:

]I'll have to try the sharp 9 on that. Its hard to tell what is correct there since the entire band accents those hits. I am also smearing down a palm wipe on each of those hits so there is an almost instant mixture going on immediately after the base chord.

The blend with the 9 seems to fit well with what everyone else is doing. I'll let you know my impressions of the #9 after I give it a try this weekend. [/QB]

I do just the opposite and do a palm gliss up to the 1st 7#9 stabs, but leave space in between the stabs to tighten up how the band hits it.

 

Here's a link to a marathon (nearly 12 minute) version that we did. We're already getting yelled at by our provider for bandwidth, whats a few more hits on a tune? edited to remove link, our isp is freaking- 92 downloads of dreams.