Why Do People Care More About the Sound of Music than Its Emotional Impact?

[Mighty Motif Max]

I guess I've never been one to not care much about the emotional impact of music...the flip side though is that to me, the emotional impact often is derived from how the music sounds. Maybe part of that is from my background in various folk music forms and also worship music...and that I can play a lot by ear naturally too. Sure, sometimes I'll hear a track and my ear will catch a particularly interesting synth patch or production technique, but music is more of a physical and emotional experience first and foremost to me.

[cphollis]

I believe the observed obsession with sound vs. emotion has a lot to do with how our brains are wired. 

 

In case you haven't noticed, many musicians' brains are wired a bit differently than other people.  Speaking for myself, I can't help but dissect every sound I hear -- it's involuntary.  It can be very distracting in social situations.

 

When I'm performing, if I hear flaws in the sound, it can distract me from the mission at hand: conveying emotion to my audience.  They won't notice the perceived sound flaw -- of course -- but I will and it takes a bit of effort to ignore it.

 

As a result, I've invested enough in my gear (and my band's gear) that I don't get distracted that way.  Once I get the sound quality to an acceptable level, t's a lot more enjoyable playing -- I can fully immerse myself in the experience.

[Tusker]

For me, the sound (timbre) does convey  emotion. So do the conventions of musical culture (melody, harmony, rhythm).

 

One of my favorite soundtracks is the soundtrack to the 1960 film Psycho. Timbre and culture are working together at Bernard Herrmann's command.

[Anderton]

2 hours ago, Tusker said:

For me, the sound (timbre) does convey  emotion. So do the conventions of musical culture (melody, harmony, rhythm).

 

Agreed...as I said, "I do find that compelling sounds can support the music. Also, certain sounds evoke certain emotions in people. When I include a string quartet part in a song, it's going to trigger a different reaction than if I played the same lines on overdubbed guitars. In either case, the music is the same, but the listener's visceral reaction with be affected."

 

But musically, I don't think you can just get by with something that sounds good. I can mix something and have the instruments and mix sound fabulous, but that's worth nothing if there's not the musical emotion baked into the parts. Conversely, it would take an execrably bad mix to hide the emotional component.

[Steve Nathan]

Seems obvious to me but new gear that sounds better than older gear does not make the music better, but new gear that sounds better which inspires the creator often results in better music with greater emotional impact.  In my world, I don't run across many musicians who aren't driven by emotion, feel, soul, whatever you want to call it.  They buy new gear, but it never gets out in front of their art.  I forget which great studio bass player was once asked about why with all the great basses he owned, he seemed to play his old, beat up Precision most of the time, and he described it by talking about all the beautiful women you meet on the road, and how they're younger, prettier and sexier, but for some reason you keep going back to your old, familiar wife! 😀  I hope his wife never saw that interview.

[Tusker]

7 hours ago, Anderton said:

But musically, I don't think you can just get by with something that sounds good. I can mix something and have the instruments and mix sound fabulous, but that's worth nothing if there's not the musical emotion baked into the parts. Conversely, it would take an execrably bad mix to hide the emotional component.

 

For sure. Remember when we used to chase down bootlegs? Crappy sounds. Magic moments. 

[Notes_Norton]

Musicians and Audiophiles care about sound quality. 99% of the population cares more about emotional impact. While it's true that timbre effects emotion, it cannot do that by itself, nor is it a requirement. 

 

In my days I've heard plenty of 45rpm records, cassette tapes, and mp3s that are full of emotional impact. People, even musicians, stream audio that has been compressed to fit the 'pipeline' when a CD or LP gives better fidelity. 

Without sound quality, the song can still be emotional. Without emotion, all the latest, high-end gear in the world won't make good music.

 

Now, as a musician, I love good sound. I have a 1925 alto sax that is hard to play due to its intonation challenges. But it's made with pre WW2 brass, and has a sterling silver plate. This gives it the voice of an angel that no modern sax can duplicate. But I bring a newer sax to the gig.

 

I also have modern gear. But there is a point of diminishing returns, where more and more dollars spent gives you less and less increase in sound quality (and often, more bling). I have my point in that scale, which may be different from yours. Mine works for me, I make my living doing music and nothing but music and don't need a 9-5 wage slave job.

 

 

Insights and incites by Notes ♫

[Theo Verelst]

Some music would better not have much emotional impact...

 

It's clear to me what I prefer to popularize, this thread seems a little unclear about what the difference is between sound and music, if my instrument works good, it makes sound which is useful to  make music with. If my musical abilities aren't up to a certain level, I might not be able to create the feeling I want, or even the popularity I might want because people expect a certain sound quality.

 

Playing Yankee Doodle on recorder probably isn't going to be a commercial success, some chorussy voice suggesting profanities might be successful when accompanied by a sampled rhythm track, it's easy to blame a concert pianist for having "no feeling" but it might be the intention.

 

Many possibilities, which are interesting ? I think people with something to say should be able to express themselves, even if the side effect is that every other person can try to call themselves a musician, too. My interest in sound quality actually is mainly because I can't stand to sound so bleak and cold digital, even if some mastering effects will create a few interesting details. To me because a digital piano does seldom give a satisfactory feeling sound, it is a challenge to work on that sound,so that I can express musical emotions the way I want.

 

T

 

[Stan Martin]

On 9/17/2024 at 2:28 PM, Anderton said:

 

Where can I buy this Taste plugin? Can I get a perpetual license, or is it subscription-only?

It's free. Download it from Harmony Central (that's where we know each other from decades ago)

[Stan Martin]

On 9/12/2024 at 11:01 AM, Notes_Norton said:

As a live performer, I have the advantage of watching the audience. They tell me if I'm doing it right or not.
 

I respectfully disagree. Playing Brown Eyed Woman for the 5374th time opening the 4th set for a drunk audience who couldn't care less if you hit the right notes didn't give me any semblance of whether it was "good" or "great". Having yet another drunk girl fall on my Fender Rhodes, spill her beer and her boobs into the piano and my face did not tell me the song was good. Only that there were probably festivities occurring after the final set.

[harmonizer]

Composition, Arrangement, Production, Gear/Recording/LiveSound.

 

I propose these as the 4 categories that matter for creating good music, with the 4th depending on whether you are creating a recording for later consumption, or creating a show for a live audience.

 

I realize we won't totally agree on where the each category stops and the next one starts.

When McCartney insisted on playing a busier bass part on "Something" than Harrison originally wanted, I consider that part of Arrangement.

When someone figured out how to record Ringo's kit on "Come Together" so well that it sounds like a drum kit recorded in a 1980s studio session instead of 1969, that's Recording. Pity that the same team was not available to capture Keith Moon's kit during the recording of "Who's Next".

Adding the strings to "Something" I would consider a Production decision (I am guessing George Martin had something to do with this). While I have read that Martin also wrote the string arrangement, for me I will still categorize this more as Production.

 

Getting back to this thread's subject, Composition is probably the most important of these 4 categories. Why is it that we don't really discuss Composition that much? There is a "Songwriting and Composition" forum here on MPN, but it has only 525 posts. That's less than 5% of the post count for this forum, and an even lower percent compared to "Keyboard Corner". Why is this? For me I don't feel that I have any songwriting talent, so I don't try, and thus I don't visit the "Songwriting and Composition" forum.

 

Maybe a lot of us are avoiding that "Songwriting and Composition" forum for similar reasons?

And maybe we write more about Gear because it's in a category that we think might help us?

[Notes_Norton]

On 9/26/2024 at 1:30 PM, Stan Martin said:

I respectfully disagree. Playing Brown Eyed Woman for the 5374th time opening the 4th set for a drunk audience who couldn't care less if you hit the right notes didn't give me any semblance of whether it was "good" or "great". Having yet another drunk girl fall on my Fender Rhodes, spill her beer and her boobs into the piano and my face did not tell me the song was good. Only that there were probably festivities occurring after the final set.

There is more than one right way to do music.

 

I went pro in the 1960s. You mentioned boobs. I had a girl who wanted me to play Harlem Nocturne with my sax between her legs after the gig. I played in a strip bar. I warmed up for major acts in concert, and almost had the record deal, but the record company didn't want to pay. I did cruise ships, singles bars, show clubs, yacht clubs, restaurants, and just about every venue a musician can play.

 

The then future Mrs. Notes and I started this duo in 1985, and other than the COVID lockdown, we've never been out of work. In fact we have to block out vacation time, or we'll book so much we can't have one (this actually happened twice before we started blocking out)

Me? I'd rather play Brown Eyed Girl for the 5375th time, then punch a time clock 5 days a week, taking orders from someone, and generally being a wage-slave. And in between the songs I've played thousands of times, I can also play newer songs that I may have just learned. And while playing for the audience, I can also sprinkle in a few appropriate songs we learned just because we wanted to play them. 

 

I had a day job once (actually twice) in my life, and working for some unknown corporate head, taking orders from some low-level manager who knew less about the job than the people he was ordering around, and having my life governed by that routine was the biggest sell-out I could imagine. I'd rather play Yakety Sax. But that's just me, others get along fine with that. Like I said, more than one way.

Since around 1990, I targeted the adult market in South Florida, because it is huge. I've played everything from Duke Ellington to Chris Stapleton. Genres include rock, pop, country, salsa, reggae, blues, disco, jazz, and so on. What would I rather play? Jazz? Rock? Metal? I really can't say. I enjoy the variety and doing my best to be authentic in each genre.

And whether I'm playing Brown Eyed Girl, Locomotive Breath, Old Cape Cod, Nothing Else Matters, Mustang Sally, or any of the other >650 songs in our book, I get into that zone where there is no space, no time, no me, just the music flowing through me.

I accept the gigs I want, turn down the ones that aren't fun, learn the songs I want, benefit from my good decisions, and hopefully learn by my bad ones.

 

Life is good today.

 

Insights and incites by Notes ♫

[Philbo King]

On 9/28/2024 at 8:43 AM, harmonizer said:

Composition, Arrangement, Production, Gear/Recording/LiveSound.

 

I propose these as the 4 categories that matter for creating good music, with the 4th depending on whether you are creating a recording for later consumption, or creating a show for a live audience.

 

I realize we won't totally agree on where the each category stops and the next one starts.

When McCartney insisted on playing a busier bass part on "Something" than Harrison originally wanted, I consider that part of Arrangement.

When someone figured out how to record Ringo's kit on "Come Together" so well that it sounds like a drum kit recorded in a 1980s studio session instead of 1969, that's Recording. Pity that the same team was not available to capture Keith Moon's kit during the recording of "Who's Next".

Adding the strings to "Something" I would consider a Production decision (I am guessing George Martin had something to do with this). While I have read that Martin also wrote the string arrangement, for me I will still categorize this more as Production.

 

Getting back to this thread's subject, Composition is probably the most important of these 4 categories. Why is it that we don't really discuss Composition that much? There is a "Songwriting and Composition" forum here on MPN, but it has only 525 posts. That's less than 5% of the post count for this forum, and an even lower percent compared to "Keyboard Corner". Why is this? For me I don't feel that I have any songwriting talent, so I don't try, and thus I don't visit the "Songwriting and Composition" forum.

 

Maybe a lot of us are avoiding that "Songwriting and Composition" forum for similar reasons?

And maybe we write more about Gear because it's in a category that we think might help us?

An appropriate misquote:

Talking about composing is like dancing about architecture.

[GovernorSilver]

I haven't gone much to the Songwriting/Composition form because I've been more focused on learning to play music than writing music.  

 

I've also cut down spending time on forums to increase time spent practicing and playing music.

 

[Bill Heins]

To me sound is part of the emotional impact! No matter how well written a piece of music is the wrong instrumentation will ruin the effect you were trying to achieve. Listen to an orchestral piece and then listen to the GM version to see what I mean

 

[Bill Heins]

I think the question is why do some people obsess over a screwdriver and some over what they can make with the screwdriver

[Tusker]

On 9/28/2024 at 9:43 AM, harmonizer said:

Maybe a lot of us are avoiding that "Songwriting and Composition" forum for similar reasons?

And maybe we write more about Gear because it's in a category that we think might help us?

 

Thanks for reminding me! I had forgotten that forum existed. I would participate if there were topics of interest.

 

Like you, I think "composition" (the organizing of musical thoughts) is the wellspring from which the other stuff comes. We can always have the famous debate about skill versus talent. Nature versus nurture. Many think you are born with it. But there are schools which teach composing skills. Students from those schools are hired into the music business. They frequently make a living from those skills.

Composition seems more abstract than songs or gear. It's easier to discuss gear.

[Thethirdapple]

1 hour ago, Bill Heins said:

I think the question is why do some people obsess over a screwdriver and some over what they can make with the screwdriver

“Righty tighty, lefty loosy…”

 

One for tightening

 

 

and two for loosening…

 

 

PEACE

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[Thethirdapple]

Does music do anything other than convey and trigger emotions?

 

Gear going to “solve” musical meanderings or make music “better” is similar to people who think “getting married or having children” will then solve something or make them better. NOPE

 

Although I did drastically change my aggressive skateboarding to something more mild-mannered when my kids were born!

 

Sound quality as experienced in the studio by my “engineering” side (studio tech) can be a major road block to creating a feeling. And conversely a feeling once expressed can be lost if the sound is overly worked and refined from a raw form. There is no doubt that the exact some composition will evoke varying emotions based on the sound quality, GM vs Audio Modeling or for that matter any deeper method to express articulations of said sound.

 

So its a balance at times but also an acceptance that the balance can be skewed and remain a powerful piece of music. Obviously the feelings are proper to me the creator and may or may not be felt by others. Such is the case for any shared art form… heck how many of us used to really like something and now wonder WTF, and the reverse is true.

 

As a kid i thought i hated avocados, then I realized what a wonderful salt vehicle they make… yum 

 

Same is true for any gear we put and connect to the whole of the studio. Not where is it going to take us, but more importantly, where can WE go with it? 
 

 

PEACE

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[Notes_Norton]

I am not a songwriter. I get stuck on the lyrics, they always sound hackneyed to me. Perhaps because when listening to music, the words are the last thing I get to, and sometimes I never get to them. The woards are just articulations to the melody to me, how are they reacting to the chords, is there an answer part, what are the bass and drums doing, how about the comp parts, and harmonies, are the parallel or not, what do I really like about what the musicians are doing, can I learn something????

 

I suggest the title of thread should be, "Why do musicians and a few other people care more about the sound of the music than it's emotional impact?"

 

Most people don't care. As mentioned before, some people have horrible tone on their instrument or voice and are big stars. Some people listen to music on various low-fi devices like mp3s, laptop/table/phone speakers, before that cassettes, 45RPM vinyl, and 8 track cassettes.

 

I know a lot of musicians who profess that tone is the most important thing, and they listen to their music compressed and streaming on the Internet instead of purchasing physical media.

But the guitar and other musical instrument manufactures make a lot of money selling tone, because they can't sell talent, so tone puts money in their banks. This expensive wood on your electric guitar will make your tone better.

I work on my tone, because I fall into the musician category, but I don't obscess about it. I know the audience doesn't care, so my intention is on performance. How to express the song emtionally (timing, dynamics, ornaments, pitch deviations, etc.), are my improvisations in the solo part appropriate, and so on. And most of this is done in the practice department, when I'm on stage, I'm in "the zone" and I just let it flow. The practice enables me to let it flow without thinking about details.

 

If you put my favorite (now gone) rock guitarist, Jeff Beck, on a Rondo/Agile, Faux-LP guitar, and a cheap amp, he would still blow almost all the other guitists away. The great bebop saxophonist Charlie Parker had an addiction problem, and he would often pawn his saxes for a fix. He even played on a plastic, Grafton alto sax, and played better than the other famous bebop sax players of the time.

 

 

Insights and incites by Notes ♫

[ProfD]

A musician's sound (signature voice) should come from within which is where the emotion lies. 

 

Herbie Hancock has a signature sound.  There's no mistaking his sense of harmony when it comes to piano.  In fact, when other musicians play them, the 1st comment is, "man, those are Herbie chords."😁 

 

It's a similar thing with the late Bill Evans who at one point in time was a whole school of Jazz piano unto himself among certain musicians.

 

The late Wes Montgomery could have picked up any guitar and he would have *sounded* the same.   The sound came from within him. A whole bunch of copycat guitarists sprung from his well.

 

There are countless examples of musicians who have or had it in terms of a unique voice that transcended their instrument.

 

Again, the emotional impact begins and ends with the musician playing the instrument. 😎

[Chip McDonald]

Sound is easier to quantify, and to present as an objective thing.  Full range, flat.  

 

 Emotional impact is chaotic and beyond the bounds of conscious summation.  It requires a *judgement* call, integrating many moments of impressions without presenting a case.  The fear of making the "wrong judgment" is great and indefensible. 

 

Having a preference has been turned into a bad thing.  You might be wrong from a clinical point of view, and people prefer to coarsely reference other people's *opinion* as a way of showing that another *opinion* is wrong.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Notes_Norton]

Neither sound nor emotional impact can be measured.

John Coltrane and Stan Getz were considered to be two of the greatest tenor sax players of the 20th century. They both played the same make/model sax, but different mouthpieces, and both their tone and their emotional impact were as different as night and day. 

 

Which one was better? Who can say? I like one much better than the other, but there are plenty who prefer the other.

This is why music talent contests, top 10 lists, and so on are meaningless to me. 

 

It all boils down to this. If your intended audience likes what you are doing, you are doing it right—whether I like what you are doing or not.

 

 

Insights and incites by Notes ♫

[David Emm]

"Notes" triggered a great starter memory for me. I was just beginning to find my voice while still in high school. I'd sneak in and play the sweetheart Baldwin baby grand in the auditorium once in a while. It had a sparkling high end, but the bass spoke with serious authority when punched. Near-perfect.

 

One day, I took a spin while the stage curtains were still drawn. After about 20 minutes, applause rolled in from the other side of the curtains. I peeked out and two girls' gym classes had been there for some health lectures. Three teachers and all o' them girls had stayed quiet to hear my early dabbling. I was startled when they applauded, as I was doing just that: dabbling. Still, I Got Across. 

 

The tingle, the raw feel of that power was as defining as watching Keith Emerson perform his "Piano Improvisations" live. When you have those moments, embrace them firmly. They're meaningful parts of your foundation.