I miss the excitement …

[Jose EB5AGV]

4 hours ago, YashN said:

 

There was enough for them to enable the use of the cards on several gear lines for years. They could easily have included it as they already had the tech and know-how.

 

In the meantime, there was enough demand for a new entrant:

- Aodyo Anyma Phi

- Aodyo Anyma Omega

 

And prompted the Native Instruments founder to make his own synth capable of supporting that kind of synthesis, although not the exact same technology inside and they don't advertise that side of it.

 

There's always the Kronos/Nautilus as well.

 

But how would they justify a MONTAGE 3rd generation, if they had already included VL on 2nd? 😅

[AROIOS]

4 hours ago, YashN said:

In the meantime, there was enough demand for a new entrant:

- Aodyo Anyma Phi

- Aodyo Anyma Omega

 

And prompted the Native Instruments founder to make his own synth capable of supporting that kind of synthesis...

All cute boutique products for synth enthusiasts, but predictably not taking the synth market by storm with their physical modeling (PM) algorithms.

And that's the core problem with these attempts at physical modeling: Their algos don't sound realistic or exciting enough.

On acoustic sounds, SWAM instruments easily blow these hard synths out of the water; for synth sounds, PM doesn't offer much that subtractive/additive synthesis don't already cover.

[Tusker]

People mean different things by physical modeling. It's a label. Some instruments run the "physical" metaphors throughout the architecture and the interface. Others don't. So you can get organic plucked timbres with comb filters without the label "physical modeling" and with other instruments experience will be more "physical." You can explore the parameters and find the sweet spots regardless of how they are labeled, but labels make it easier to visualize the sound you are hearing. However, without the labels, it's often easier to find the in-between sounds to make up your own sound-world to convey your emotions. For example in this example he is not dialing in precise trombones, but they work in his mix in a way that real trombones cannot.

 

I miss VL. There are several Reaktor ensembles which somewhat replace them. I particularly love the Silverwood Saxophones, Flutes and Clarinet. Also the Dannenberg brass. Prism is great for plucked and struck sounds. I love the SWAM instruments although I wish they were not as precisely emulative: if they only had greater parameter ranges to enable more in-between instruments! I feel the same way about Expressive E's Imagine. Expressive E's Osmose is also exciting although I haven't dived in yet.

 

If you are using Pianoteq, there are hidden features for creative physical modeling. 

[rogs]

Back in the day --- I mean way back in the day (late 1960s) -- I worked as an apprentice service tech. for a Hammond Organ dealer chain here in the UK. 

A tonewheel Hammond with a twin rotor Leslie speaker made a jaw dropping sound (still does, IMHO  ) . Almost nothing else came close.

(Apart from posibly pipe organs and really good pianos).

But these Hammonds cost about 1/3 the price of a house at the time, and were way out of reach for most folk (me included!)

 

Since them we've had some major keyboard 'moments' -- Rhodes, Minimoog, Prophet V were all significant markers, along with 'string synths' and then 'romplers'.....

More recently, better sampling and newer digital techniques (like 'modelling') have extended the 'rompler concept', but have not really introduced anything 'new '.

 

The 'spinet' organ format (2 x 44 or 49 note keyboards and a 13 note pedal board) all but disappeared as the keyboard world moved on.

(Although it's still popular in Japan and East Asia apparently?).

For those of use brought up with that type of instrument, the IK multimedia B3X software re-introduced the tonewheel Hammond to a whole new audience (and without the silly price tag!).  

Who would have thought that buying a cheap 1990s spinet organ (some of the Yamahas still work fine!) from Ebay, and $100 software could re-create that same magical sound 50 years on, but for a small fraction of the original price.

 

What is perhaps even more surprising is that the 'famous' Hammond sound is still up there with the best of whatever else 50 years of keyboard development has given us.

So -- Hammond - Rhodes - Minimoog - polysynths -  string machines - romplers - and possibly FM?.... are probably the electronic milestones. 

Nothing dramatically new apart from that -- and most of those concepts are now at least 40 or more years old.....

 

Will there be another fundamentally different keyboard likely to join that elite list?.... As time moves on, and each year only seems to bring 'revamps' (both hardware and software), it doesn't look likely?....

 

 

[HammondDave]

On 8/17/2024 at 1:22 AM, AROIOS said:

 

The next round of synth advancement is most likely "patch matching/generation". We throw a snippet of sound at A.I.; boom, it creates a patch of that sound.

This is exactly what I have been saying. Can you imagine telling your synth that you want the sounds from the solo in Africa, and it produces them immediacy? Then from that sound you could say: “Add 3 dbs of 8000 hz and a delay of 20 ms”?  Or you could play a sound from a song and the synth matches it?  Then you could say: “Put this sound in the upper split of the keyboard starting at C4” 
 

Now THAT would be game-changing!

[RABid]

One advancement I was really happy to see is patch memory. You had to be an efficiency expert to deal with a stack of synths in a live situation. As soon as I finished a solo on the MiniMoog I started dialing in the next sound, using headphones so I could hear without the audience hearing it. I also had a flashlight on stage so I could see what knobs I was turning. Expand that to two mono synths, a string machine, electric piano with pedals, and an organ, what a rush. A few years later I was playing a Chroma, MemoryMoog and Source. Things were so much easier with that set up. 

[Tusker]

When many of us are saying there isn’t anything new, I can respect that. Still, it makes me want to ask what we are looking for. 

 

The Osmose (for example) is a new idea isn’t it? 
 

 

[AROIOS]

12 hours ago, Tusker said:

...For example in this example he is not dialing in precise trombones, but they work in his mix in a way that real trombones cannot.

 

I love the SWAM instruments although I wish they were not as precisely emulative: if they only had greater parameter ranges to enable more in-between instruments!...

That was an excellent composition, Eugene's sound design chops are right up there with Howard Scarr.
 

12 hours ago, Tusker said:

...I love the SWAM instruments although I wish they were not as precisely emulative: if they only had greater parameter ranges to enable more in-between instruments!...

 

Yup, expressiveness is paramount in synth lead/solo sounds.

[ProfD]

1 hour ago, Tusker said:

The Osmose (for example) is a new idea isn’t it? 

The Osmose is a great example of new KB technology that isn't getting nearly enoug attention.

 

Probably because the Osmose is a performance-based instrument instead of rehashing a variation on the same old KB technology we find in synths, ROMplers and DPs.

 

Unfortunately, the state of music doesn't seem to be in a place where KB players can exploit the Osmose.

 

I can name several musicians from the 1970s who would have been all over the Osmose. I can hear Joe Zawinul (RIP) ripping on it.

 

Herbie Hancock is still with us but his forays into new KB technology exploration  are in his rearview. He's content with the Fazioli, Kronos, laptop and keytar.😎

[YashN]

17 hours ago, AROIOS said:

And that's the core problem with these attempts at physical modeling: Their algos don't sound realistic or exciting enough.

On acoustic sounds, SWAM instruments easily blow these hard synths out of the water; for synth sounds, PM doesn't offer much that subtractive/additive synthesis don't already cover.

 

SWAM is quite good at what it does, but there's a whole spectrum of sounds that a VL can do that SWAM won't.

 

Additive can in theory do anything. In practice, the closer the implementation to the theory the less easy it is to create something with it. Grouped is better and having the analysis part onboard would probably help, but you won't find people saying a K5000 is easy to program.

 

Subtractive on its own cannot reach the timbres nor behaviours that a VL can provide. Of course, if you're only thinking emulative here, subtractive can be enough for some covers since it has been very common in published music. For me, PM opens up really vast new avenues for synthesis, there are worlds between the acoustic emulative and the totally synthetic other end.

 

It will most probably take many more years until people realise the real power of a good PM engine for Synthesis. There is also a Dynamic and Expressive quality to it on top of doing things that are not physically possible in real life still make sound with that engine, among several other types of sounds.

 

With MPE and solutions like the Osmose keyboard becoming more common, there's a possibility PM finds a new audience. The new controls are quite well matched with those forms of Synthesis - and there are several ways to implement the PM algorithms - just like a Breath Controller with bite and other controls can bring the acoustic emulative patches to life. These new controls can be used for the other types of sounds too.

[AROIOS]

32 minutes ago, YashN said:

...It will most probably take many more years until people realise the real power of a good PM engine for Synthesis...

As was the case with most popular synths, it might just be a matter of showcasing tasty presets created by good programmers like John "Skippy" Lehmkuhl, Eric Persing, or Howard Scarr.

The bottleneck is unlikely the modeling algorithms themselves, they are already pretty sophisticated these days, along with CPUs fast enough to render them.

[CrossRhodes]

Kinda sounds like the thrill is gone for quite a few regulars here. I think it can be hard to walk away from an identity we’ve attached ourselves to for so long but nothing wrong with trying out some new hobbies. Might find something that lights that fire inside you again! 

[CrossRhodes]

11 hours ago, HammondDave said:

This is exactly what I have been saying. Can you imagine telling your synth that you want the sounds from the solo in Africa, and it produces them immediacy? Then from that sound you could say: “Add 3 dbs of 8000 hz and a delay of 20 ms”?  Or you could play a sound from a song and the synth matches it?  Then you could say: “Put this sound in the upper split of the keyboard starting at C4” 
 

Now THAT would be game-changing!

I agree that this is where we are going to see the next wave of major changes coming from. I do think it would take some of the fun out of trying to recreate iconic patches that you like but as we’ve seen with apps like Midjourney and Photoshop, there’s no stopping it at this point.

[YashN]

1 hour ago, AROIOS said:

As was the case with most popular synths, it might just be a matter of showcasing tasty presets created by good programmers like John "Skippy" Lehmkuhl, Eric Persing, or Howard Scarr.

The bottleneck is unlikely the modeling algorithms themselves, they are already pretty sophisticated these days, along with CPUs fast enough to render them.

 

Anything is doable and better nowadays. Let's see what happens when the Polyphonic one by Aodyo gets out.

 

On second thought, a new version of the VP, updated for today as a separate board would be great too, and certainly more affordable that if it were included in the workstation package.

 

We can also wait and see how the capabilities in the C15 are harnessed.

 

As for me, it's in V.A.S.T.-land that I build interesting things, especially my K2500 with KDFX.

[Stokely]

I find software instruments to be the biggest excitement for me in the last 20 years (though not for live, personally).   Just having everything ready to go at all times with no patch saving, changing, sysex, loading, setting up multitimbral modes, bending over tiny screens etc etc  removed all the drudgery when it came to sequencing in the old days.   And then you add in  how easy it is to automate just about everything in them without having to map midi ccs on each device, they generally just expose their parameters by name to the daw so easy peasy.

Plus at least some of the software instruments really push the envelope when they aren't slavishly trying to recreate something hardware.  Though don't get me wrong, one of my favorites is Repro!   

[cassdad]

On 8/17/2024 at 1:04 PM, The Real MC said:

 

Standard procedure for Yamaha - planned obsolescence.  They have always obsoleted portable storage with advancing new platforms.  That way you can't load patches from new platforms into legacy products, forcing you to buy their latest keyboards.

Well, OK - but I see that “standard procedure” as a double-edged sword:  Although for some it may “force you to buy their latest keyboards”.  But for others, such as myself, it forces me to NOT buy the latest and keep using the old.  I have way too many hours invested in programming those sounds, linking the associated MIDI messages to all my digital songs / notation, etc.  I’m not willing to throw that all away, and re-spend all those hours to get the same results, just in a new keyboard.  YMMV.

[Tusker]

12 hours ago, YashN said:

We can also wait and see how the capabilities in the C15 are harnessed.

 

Yes, it's about how the sounds are put into use isn't it? As ProfD mentioned, Herbie Hancock doesn't seem to be exploring the latest and greatest tools anymore. For many of us, it's people like Herbie who made the Odyssey or the Solina or the Vocoder, exciting. 

 

Matt Johnson and Nick Semrad are two people I go to, to see if something is exciting them. Nick seems to be digging the CS15 here.

 

 

[Outkaster]

As I get older my playing and instincts just get better the more, I work at it.  The keyboards have become a little secondary.  I seem less impressed with the new gear as I go on.

[YashN]

2 hours ago, Tusker said:

Matt Johnson and Nick Semrad are two people I go to, to see if something is exciting them. Nick seems to be digging the CS15 here.

 

More C15, including thoughts by one of the original sound designers of the VL1 and VP1

[TommyRude]

I haven't read all the posts, hopefully this isn't a rehash.  For me, a lot of what generates excitement is what you happen to be playing at the time, the band(s) you happen to be in, do the board and sounds lock in or generate new ideas that mesh.  If that happens, very exciting!  And if you don't currently have that sound, but you find it - either online or in person, oh yeah!

 

As for sounds themselves, I find the most exciting to be the ones that have some percussive element, punchy crunchy, deep.  The pads are great, but tend to be more of a hypnotic mesmerizing feel.  That can be exciting too - the right pad, in the right place, at the right moment - that can definitely be exciting!

[Tusker]

19 hours ago, YashN said:

 

More C15, including thoughts by one of the original sound designers of the VL1 and VP1

 

Woah. That's brilliant! 👏

 

To me the video undersells itself by describing the C15 as FM synthesis, when it is so much more. The feedback loops, controllable delay, resonators and effects make a fantastic interdependent system to which FM is just the doorway. Stephan Schmidt has been developing these ideas first as the Reaktor Prism and Spark ensembles, then as Native Instruments Kontour, then as the C15. That lineage doesn't diminish the C15 in any way. It explains it. The C15 culmination of his labor of love over a long period of time.

 

Manny drops some brilliant perspective here from time to time as DrSynth.

 

I love the subtlety and depth of this conversation among the legends. Their enthusiasm is palpable. It's the edge of sonic possibility. Thank you. 

 

 

[YashN]

9 hours ago, Tusker said:

Woah. That's brilliant! 👏

 

To me the video undersells itself by describing the C15 as FM synthesis, when it is so much more. The feedback loops, controllable delay, resonators and effects make a fantastic interdependent system to which FM is just the doorway.

 

Manny drops some brilliant perspective here from time to time as DrSynth.

 

Right on, it's not restricted to FM at all There's much more inside than at first glance.

 

The pictures of the internal structure show that.

[David Emm]

Hearing the C15 makes me feel like I'm leaning into a well-maintained piano. Its a bit hard to think of it as part of a traditional synth stack. Its creates a sort of holographic environment one gets with a pipe organ. If there is an issue with any new music technology, its getting people to understand what they're hearing in such a way as to become fans. We're still mostly slogging through a "How'd they DO that phase" with MPE. Its a harder sell in a world stubbornly clutching comfy nostalgia while bristling at the lack of sparkling-new novelty every week. 🤨 

 

I'll know we've arrived when there's a concert starring 2 C15s and 2 Osmoses as a quartet. (Osmii?) A mix of Debussy and some original works would be a 3-D show I could embrace. I don't see these as being great for standard rock. They could do it, of course. I just consider them and get the Feels that are wowing us about those cosmic OB-X8 pads. Bring back the Sensel, darnit... 👍

[Thethirdapple]

the thrill is gone, perhaps...

 

Quote

“Old Meets New #2...”

A finished OASYS Music Workstation(what an object of technological lust!) sits in front of two customized ARP 2600s in Stephen Kay's studio.

 

 

 

 

 

PEACE

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[YashN]

2 hours ago, Thethirdapple said:

the thrill is gone, perhaps...

 

 

 

 

 

Definitely the kind of fun setup idea: Digital Modular + Analogue Modular, but here, the Analogue Modular doesn't seem to be within reach if you sit in front of the OASYS, and we're not sure anything else other than perhaps the audio of one is connected to the other.

 

More Fun:

- Kurzweil K2500S/K2600S connected either Audio or Audio-as-CV into an Eurorack-size Modular, well within reach, or connections the other way round...

... the first can manage up to 10 different CV or Audio signals, with 2 more as copies of 1 pair, two CV inputs, but more CV inputs with hardware hacks

 

- All kinds of loops between the two, digital effects in the loop, far better quality if KDFX is involved

 

[Thethirdapple]

@YashN fun fun fun

 

MIDI to CV has peaked my excitement meter, as of the past couple of years… For myself its fun to be able to easily interconnect vintage and contemporary gear. So many inexpensive options exist now which were still “iffy” just a few years ago.

 

Having a Juno6 communicating with the rest of the studio has been a long time goal, now with midi to sync the ARP trigger and midi to cv in for the VCA while keeping the Juno og. Even just being able to “reprogram” all sorts of vintage gear with a powerful pocket calculator(ipad/iphone as a processing unit). The ability to translate all sort of events into other types of events has blown the roof off the studio. And when I’mreally bored I use pitch to midi and can “control” midi gear with the Juno… super silly but fun for some stuff

Take a vintage foot-controllers with limited capabilities, now,  all sorts of midi and sysex and even cv utilities exist to redirect the events and messages. Using an portable device with an app to turn the ART Ultrafoot into a realtime variable continuous controller. There is no internal programming to change the CC expression on the fly. But using a “program change” with a foot switch sent to an app which translates the expression pedal CC to anything I want in realtime…

 

 

 

 

 

Its always great to have and juxtapose gear even if not fully connected. The pride in the progress many player/creators/engineers must feel comes thru to me in photos like the one of Kay’s studio… hopefully many more creations are in the works from everyone making groovy new musical toys (tools)

 

 

 

 

PEACE

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[YashN]

1 hour ago, Thethirdapple said:

@YashN fun fun fun

 

Its always great to have and juxtapose gear even if not fully connected. The pride in the progress many player/creators/engineers must feel comes thru to me in photos like the one of Kay’s studio… hopefully many more creations are in the works from everyone making groovy new musical toys (tools)

 

Indeed. I call the concept The Meta-Modular.