Keyboard for ‘extra’ sounds.

[Dr88s]

I’ve been asked to join a gigging band as their second keyboardist. I’ve subbed for them as their primary KB before and they like my attention to detail in terms of sound programming, something their primary player, who is a skilled player, isn’t fond of. He’d cover most of pianos and organs, I’d cop the ‘extras’ from the studio recordings. 

 

Ordinarily I’m not a huge fan of playing string and horn parts but these guys are tight, nice guys, and regularly working, and I’m up for the challenge. 

 

I think I could probably get away with a single 61 key board and love to travel light. Recommend me a reasonably priced board with a good palette of sounds and fairly easy editing (knobs good, menu diving bad) that excels at this kind of thing. 

 

I’m thinking Yamaha MX61, or maybe midi controller and  iPad. Anything else? Budget is on the low side as it would be a specialty purchase for this one context and I’d try buy used. 

 

[RABid]

MX61 is popular but I would question how easy it is to program. I have a MODX6+. Great sounds, nice favorites list, horrible key action. The Fantom 06 gives you the option of programming Zen Core patches on the computer and moving them to the keyboard. Some people hate the idea of the cloud. I have not issue with it and am a paid subscriber. I cannot give information on the action of the Fantom 06 keyboard as I have never played one. My information comes from owning the Fantom 7 and Jupiter X.

[JoJoB3]

This 61key 12lb gig tool from Roland will likely do everything you need and will in regard.
I pref to buy keys used but even new the bang for the buck here is impressive. 

Impressive and fun tonewheel organ (and farfisa), nice epianos, synths, leads, strings, pads, piano with lightning fast UI for live playing.

Roland VR-09
https://reverb.com/item/39229904-roland-vr-09-b

[CEB]

I carry a FA06 in my rig.  The action sucks but the sampler and sound library is cool.  I really like the sampler. I can add a lot to the show with one-shot samples.  
 

If I could only have one I would prefer the old Motif sound sets over a typical Roland bread and butter sound set.  ( EPs, clavs, strings, Pop Brass, APs, etc… ). Hammond organ patches suck on both, but I’m an organ snob.  My opinion may not be popular but Motif organs do sit better in Pop layers.   I think the way effects are implemented in the FA organs are crap.   It sounds like the other guy will cover organs any way. 

 

I think the MX is cool.   Checkout  a MX61 patch list. Does it have velo falls?  That’s a cool brass layer.   If not I would be tempted to look at used Yamaha gear. 

[Reezekeys]

Personally speaking - I can't see investing money in a new keyboard solely to play gigs with a band where I know in advance I'm gonna be doing something I won't enjoy so much. Having said that, a small, light board that can be used in emergency situations – or gigs with heinous schleps, or quick hits like a wedding ceremony - that's a worthwhile reason to get one, if you can honestly see yourself getting that kind of use from it. But, buying one to only be the "aux keys" person? You understand you'll be doing 5x the work learning songs than anyone else, because you not only have to learn the song itself but you'll also be searching for multiple patches, possibly tweaking envelopes or other stuff to work in the song, then arranging them into splits or layers to save as presets, etc. etc. The grunt work we get to do! For playing a role in a band you're not into. Maybe it's worthwhile because they work a lot and the bread is good? I certainly can't judge how you weigh the pros and cons, this is just my jaded opinion! 🙂 

 

To not be a complete downer - I would probably second the reccs of a few folks here for those light 61-key "do it all reasonably well" boards like that MX61 or VR-09. If you already have an iPad and you're comfortable getting under the hood with an app like AUM (or its equivalents), then a controller like my Roland A800 will save you some money - especially if you can find one used. Good luck!

[CEB]

I read the voice list.   The MX is cool.  I recognize most of the Motif sounds from my S90XS.

 

https://it.yamaha.com/files/download/other_assets/6/329536/mx49mx61_en_dl_a0.pdf

 

But Reeze is a wise man.

[AnotherScott]

 

1 hour ago, Dr88s said:

Recommend me a reasonably priced board with a good palette of sounds and fairly easy editing (knobs good, menu diving bad) that excels at this kind of thing. 

 

IN terms of a keyboard, my pick would be the Roland Fantom-06, though even though a moderately priced board, it may be pricier than what you're looking for.

 

Regarding some others mentioned, the VR09 and MX61 have very minimal on-board sound editing. For the VR09, most editing is via their iPad app or a freeware Mac/PC editor (which adds a lot more functionality). For the MX61, the currently available editor is the Mac/PC software for sale from John Melas.  Another VR09 limitation is that it has only 4 one-button patch select buttons (100 user patches total, so 25 banks of 4). Also, if you want to split/layer two sounds, they can't each have their own effects. The MX has more flexibility here, with 16 patch buttons instead of 4, and up to 4 sounds at a time can have their own effects. 

 

The Fantom-06 has good, pretty straight-forward on-board sound editing, good patch selection capabilities (16-button touchscreen plus a "chain" feature for set lists), and would also give you a  better selection of the strings/horns sound you mentioned. Splits/layers are very versatile, up to 16 parts each with their own effects.

 

For Yamaha, the more knobby-editable option compared to the MX would be the CK61, though it has a smaller sound set than the MX, and less sound editability (than the MX or either of the Rolands).

 

 

 

 

[Dr88s]

@Reezekeys Your point is well taken, and perhaps I won’t find myself happy with this gig, but I’m accepting it for the challenge and because these guys pack a room with people dancing, which is fun to be a part of. Every challenge is a learning experience and I’m sure I’ll end up a better keyboard player for having tried. 
 

@JoJoB3 and @AnotherScott I actually own a VR-09 but hadn’t considered it because of the factors Scott mentions - effects and I think even ADSR envelope are shared on both sides of a split. I’ve always been pleasantly surprised by what I am able to get out of it when playing a solo sound, but it always falls way short in splits.
 

@CEB I’ve previously owned MX61 and MX88. Pretty fun little board.

 

I do have an iPad and Camelot Pro. I have done shows with a Numa Compact 2X and it’s built in interface, but I am worried about reliability issues. Once in a while the connection gets lost for no apparent reason.  I could do it with a dedicated interface. 

[Sean M. H.]

I too would recommend the Fantom-06 for "aux" secondary-keyboard duties.  It's strengths are pads and synths IMO, but things like strings and brass are also plentiful--if not world class in terms of quality.  It's also got tons lf controllers... sliders, knobs and both joystick and wheels.  Plus it's got drum pads, which could be very useful for aux duties--triggering one shots, starting loops etc.

 

The older FA line is similar and would be a lot cheaper.  But, as others have said, you may not be able to deal with the action on the 06*.  The FA-07 got an upgraded action.

*This is of course very subjective.  You might try an FA-06 and have no issues with it.  Or it may grow on you as you get used to it.  I found my Fantom-07 to be almost unplayable and cheap feeling when I first got it.  Now, the action doesn't even cross my mind...

 

The Korg Nautilus 61 is in a similar price range as the Fantom-06 I think, but I've never played it.  Given it's Kronos lineage, I wouldn't be surprised if it has better sounds than the Fantom-0 in some categories, but you do lose a lot of physical controllers (which is the main thing they trimmed when moving from Kronos to Nautilus)

 

If neither of those are within price range--maybe consider going back a couple of generations and getting a used (formerly top of the line) workstation like a Triton or Motif?  I don't have a problem with the sound of boards like the cheaper MX61 or MOX6, but trying to do any demanding programming on those tiny screens would be enough to drive me crazy. 

[Mighty Motif Max]

Either a Fantom 06 (or the 7 - better action) or Juno DS61/76 would do the trick. Different pluses and minuses - I do prefer the brass sections on the DS to those on the Fantom-0 and full Fantom lines, actually.

 

I owned an MX61 for a few years, but found it too limiting and I didn’t like the drop in sound quality from the Motif that I used for years before then. I upgraded to a MODX-7 and that’s been a great board as well.

 

Edit: Sean brought up the Nautilus as we cross-posted. That’s also a very strong contender actually. If you can deal with much of the editing being on the touch screen, that’s a great option.

[Sean M. H.]

3 minutes ago, Mighty Motif Max said:

Either a Fantom 06 or Juno DS would do the trick. Different pluses and minuses - I do prefer the brass sections on the DS to those on the Fantom-0 and full Fantom lines, actually.

 

I owned an MX61 for a few years, but found it too limiting and I didn’t like the drop in sound quality from the Motif that I used for years before then. I upgraded to a MODX-7 and that’s been a great board as well.

 

 

Forgot about the Juno...that might be the sweet spot here.

 

Also agree that brass/horns are a weak spot on the Fantom.  My live rig for the last couple years has been a Fantom-07 over a Kurz PC4...and honestly, both those boards kinda suck at brass sections.  Could probably program something decent on the Kurz, but, out of the box... pretty underwhelming.

[ImproKeys]

I went with the CK61 for that purpose. But you should check the voice list (part of the manual) and see if something important is missing. BTW you could easily integrate an iPad with the CK‘s built in interface. 

[Paul Woodward]

I would second a CK61 for its great sounds and iPad integration but on that same idea have you looked at the new Roland Go Keys 5 for lightweight, features and ability to load zen core sounds? I believe it also does audio over usb like the Yamaha.

Im currently using the Korg Keystage 61 with an iPad which also has a built in audio interface like the CK/YC etc. However, unless you wanted a board with poly aftertouch and Midi 2.0 features its a bit overkill (price wise) for your scenario/ With the iPad you do have the flexibility of loading up whatever sound engines you want, and its a very lightweight setup which could even run without a power supply for a good few hours.

[stoken6]

For aux keys, you may need a sampler. I would vote for Roland Fantom-06, or the older s/h FA-06, because those pads may be really useful, depending on what kind of stuff you're playing. But might break the budget.

 

Cheers, Mike

[AnotherScott]

8 hours ago, Sean M. H. said:

I too would recommend the Fantom-06 for "aux" secondary-keyboard duties.  It's strengths are pads and synths IMO, but things like strings and brass are also plentiful--if not world class in terms of quality. 

 

For "things like strings and brass," loading the (free) strings, brass, and orchestral SRX-based expansions is worthwhile.

 

8 hours ago, Sean M. H. said:

The older FA line is similar and would be a lot cheaper.  But, as others have said, you may not be able to deal with the action on the 06*.  The FA-07 got an upgraded action.

*This is of course very subjective.  You might try an FA-06 and have no issues with it.  Or it may grow on you as you get used to it.  I found my Fantom-07 to be almost unplayable and cheap feeling when I first got it.  Now, the action doesn't even cross my mind...

 

I find my Fantom-07 action to feel pretty comparable to the action in my DS61 (which I believe is the same as the Fantom-06)... not identical, but similar, and no better (or worse). The FA-07 had a better action, though. I wish they had used the FA-07 action in the Fantom-07 (or even better, if they had used the Jupiter 50 action).

 

But for the OP, there are some notable trade-offs in going down from a Fantom-07 to an FA-07....

 

... weaker "things like strings and brass," because it lacks the SuperNATURAL brass (and I think the SN solo strings), and there's only enough memory to load two of the three expansions I mentioned.

 

... OP prefers knobby sound manipulation, and the Fantom-07 has a dedicated synth control section

 

8 hours ago, Mighty Motif Max said:

Either a Fantom 06 (or the 7 - better action) or Juno DS61/76 would do the trick. Different pluses and minuses - I do prefer the brass sections on the DS to those on the Fantom-0 and full Fantom lines, actually.

 

Juno DS does have some sounds that beat the current Fantoms. Many of Roland's best sounds were in the Fantom S/X/G, and that's where most Juno DS sounds come from. Those sounds are unfortunately not in the new Fantoms (or any Zen-Core stuff). Juno DS is well-priced, too. OTOH, Juno DS does not have the VA synth capabilities or the knobby editing of the Fantom-0, has no SuperNATURAL sounds, runs out of effects more quickly (though is more flexible in how you can assign what it has) and only has enough expansion memory to load one of the three expansions I mentioned. As you say, different plusses and minuses. 

 

8 hours ago, Sean M. H. said:

My live rig for the last couple years has been a Fantom-07 over a Kurz PC4...and honestly, both those boards kinda suck at brass sections.  Could probably program something decent on the Kurz, but, out of the box... pretty underwhelming.

 

On the Fantom-0, I also improved brass sections by combining multiple brass patches. But also, Fantom-0 (and even more so, PC4) is well-suited to adding sounds externally. I'm considering adding a Seqtrak to have a bunch of Yamaha sounds available as well, and getting back to the other approach the OP mentioned ("maybe midi controller and  iPad") these boards can serve dual purpose as boards with their own sounds as well as iPad controllers, another way to expand the sound palette. So moving on to that topic...

 

6 hours ago, ImproKeys said:

I went with the CK61 for that purpose. But you should check the voice list (part of the manual) and see if something important is missing. BTW you could easily integrate an iPad with the CK‘s built in interface. 

 

Yes, if you like the way a board works but it has some gaps, adding an iPad could give you the benefits of being able to take advantage of the strengths of each approach. Taking a look at the boards mentioned from this perspective...

 

Among the Yamahas, CK is strong because it is a "one cable solution" with its built-in class compliant USB audio interface, It also supports four external zones (but does not provide easy access to separate volumes for the 4 external zones, unfortunately). MX (2nd gen) also provides the one-cable solution, except the MIDI functionality of the board itself is almost non-existent, beyond the convenience of being able to use the 16 buttons to instantly change which of the 16 MIDI channels you're playing, which can be nice. The MODX is the strongest choice here, still a one-cable solution, with 8 external zones, with volume controls, plus you can create re-usable user programs that contain external sounds as easily as you can create them for internal sounds, which is unusual. (You could also create a screen of 16 Live Sets to duplicate the MX feature of having 16 instantly available buttons that switch MIDI channels on the fly.)

 

I hadn't actually mentioned MODX before, though it has come up in subsequent posts. That could be another strong option... I didn't realize that MODX6+ is cheaper than Fantom-06, plus there may be more availability of used MODX6. It may be the best sounding option here for many of the sample-based sounds. Its non-sample based synthesis is FM (rather than VA as in the Roland VR/FA/Fantom-0 models, which may or may not be your preference... but there's no VA *or* FM synth in some of the other options listed, i.e. CK, MX or Roland DS). Biggest knock here on the MODX vs. the Fantom-0 is probably that the Fantom-0 is easier and knobbier for editing.

 

Getting back to iPad integration, the Rolands don't have a one-cable iPad solution (you'll need to run separate MIDI and audio connections), but they can still work well. Fantom-0 and (I believe) FA support up to 16 external zones, with volume controls (and the Fantom-0 could do the same MODX trick of giving you a screen of 16 buttons that simply switch MIDI channels). VR is much more limited, only a single external zone. DS might be okay for 16 external zones, but its implementation of external MIDI is particularly awkward, and I'm not sure what it can and can't do.

[Paul Woodward]

30 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

Getting back to iPad integration, the Rolands don't have a one-cable iPad solution (you'll need to run separate MIDI and audio connections), but they can still work well. 

Are you sure? The Go Keys 3 and 5 have audio over USB which is class compliant effectively making it one of the cheapest ways to integrate an iPad. As its USB C, should you have a newer iPad, you won't even need the Apple CCK 🙂

I was naturally sceptical of this feature as Roland never seem to put class compliant USB on their devices. I eyed up a cheap Roland SH-4D to use as an expander with my Keystage, until I realised the USB audio required drivers.

 

[Delaware Dave]

12 hours ago, Reezekeys said:

.....you not only have to learn the song itself but you'll also be searching for multiple patches, possibly tweaking envelopes or other stuff to work in the song, then arranging them into splits or layers to save as presets, etc. etc. The grunt work we get to do .... 

 

This is my role in my current band; piano, organ, horns, strings, flute, harmonica, clav, sax, synths, every sound effect imaginable. Complicated patch work and alot of tiring work.  The worse part now is that my 'subs' no longer want to sub for me because of the complicated patch work involved.

[Reezekeys]

That's it in a nutshell. Add to that a bandleader or bandmates wanting it to "sound like the record" and giving you grief because you can't make happen live what someone else's ten overdubs in a studio did. Of course the "sounding like the record" part never seems to apply to them - only the keyboard player! Actually I can't blame them much for thinking like that, given the bells & whistles crammed into today's boards. They still seem to forget we have the same two hands and ten fingers to work with, despite the thousands of sounds at our disposal. Oh yea, our feet too I guess. And there are i-apps that can track your eyes and facial expressions - maybe you can map those to trigger those wonderful sound effects! I missed my true calling - shoulda been a space shuttle pilot! 🙂

[AnotherScott]

 

1 hour ago, Paul Woodward said:

1 hour ago, AnotherScott said:

Getting back to iPad integration, the Rolands don't have a one-cable iPad solution (you'll need to run separate MIDI and audio connections), but they can still work well. 

 

Are you sure? The Go Keys 3 and 5 have audio over USB which is class compliant

 

Yeah, there are some Rolands with this feature, but not the models I was talking about (VR09, FA, Fantom-0).

[Paul Woodward]

Strange that the higher end Roland boards should restrict the use of class compliant devices (such as iPad) while a £325 entry level keyboard has it....never understood this. Was pleasantly surprised when the 'budget' CK inherited many of the same features from the YC 🙂

[J.F.N.]

51 minutes ago, Reezekeys said:

That's it in a nutshell. Add to that a bandleader or bandmates wanting it to "sound like the record" and giving you grief because you can't make happen live what someone else's ten overdubs in a studio did. Of course the "sounding like the record" part never seems to apply to them - only the keyboard player! Actually I can't blame them much for thinking like that, given the bells & whistles crammed into today's boards. They still seem to forget we have the same two hands and ten fingers to work with, despite the thousands of sounds at our disposal. Oh yea, our feet too I guess. And there are i-apps that can track your eyes and facial expressions - maybe you can map those to trigger those wonderful sound effects! I missed my true calling - shoulda been a space shuttle pilot! 🙂

 

Space shuttle pilots rely more on automation...

 

[J.F.N.]

Arturia claims that what you need is an AstroFab "Avant-garde Stage Keyboard".

 

[AnotherScott]

41 minutes ago, Paul Woodward said:

Strange that the higher end Roland boards should restrict the use of class compliant devices (such as iPad) while a £325 entry level keyboard has it....

 

I wouldn't say they "restricted" anything (implying that they did something specifically to prevent it), but rather something was not implemented. I figure it would have to be either a limitation of the hardware platform or of the software platform. These higher end keyboards were developed longer ago, so maybe the cheaper boards could have some newer hardware in them. And/or the development environment for the older systems didn't include that driver support, and the one for the newer systems did.

[pinkfloydcramer]

Good to see the CK61 mentioned here, as I have one on the way. From clips it seems to sound pretty close to my YC88. Looking for it to be the extra sounds board, as well as my sit-in board. Keybed can't possibly be worse than that of the Electro.

[analogman1]

Interesting topic..I’m always on the lookout for something to supplement my rig…

[Paul Woodward]

14 minutes ago, pinkfloydcramer said:

Good to see the CK61 mentioned here, as I have one on the way. From clips it seems to sound pretty close to my YC88. Looking for it to be the extra sounds board, as well as my sit-in board. Keybed can't possibly be worse than that of the Electro.

It was certainly quieter than the two YC61’s I owned.

[ProfD]

I would also recommend either Roland Fantom 06 or Juno DS61 as they seem tailored to this type of gig. Onboard pad controller and sample capability whether direct or import is a bonus.😎

[analogman1]

1 hour ago, ProfD said:

I would also recommend either Roland Fantom 06 or Juno DS61 as they seem tailored to this type of gig. Onboard pad controller and sample capability whether direct or import is a bonus.😎

I’m doing a ton of synthpop covers from the 80s. Mostly music by the cars but also a lot of other artists of that genre. Would either of those keyboards have good synth sounds?

[ProfD]

13 minutes ago, analogman1 said:

I’m doing a ton of synthpop covers from the 80s. Mostly music by the cars but also a lot of other artists of that genre. Would either of those keyboards have good synth sounds?

Considering Roland synths were heavily used in 1980s music, I believe a reasonable facsimile of the most popular synth sounds are covered in those KBs. 😎

[AnotherScott]

While it's true that Rolands were big in 80s synth-pop, those were analog synths (e.g. Jupiter 8). Fantom-06 with its VA emulations would be the better choice there than Juno DS which is all samples.