Bad Rap?

[jazzpiano88]

This should satisfy all of your unrealized urges. 
 

 

[Adan]

Surprised no one yet has posted the Beato vid that gets right at the heart of this question.

[BluMunk]

14 hours ago, AROIOS said:

The original post was really a political discussion disguised as a musical one.

 

So true. And, maybe not framed initially as much of a discussion, though there have been some great posts.

 

Music and art is at its core about shared culture, and culture is at the core of politics (well, culture and taxes :p). It's pretty impossible to untangle "I don't like X because it's not good" and "I don't like X because I wasn't raised with it and/or don't belong to a community that celebrates and amplifies it". 

 

It's such a delicate line that we tread here, a forum of culture-creators and culture-amplifiers, that discourages political discussion (rightfully, perhaps, for the survival of the forums). Being unable to talk about politics means we really cannot dive into the "whys" of what music is considered good or not.

 

It's fair to say that most folks who dismiss rap and/or hip-hop as unskilled or un-valuable genres do so having almost no exposure to the depth of them, and having spent almost no time understanding their contexts. Disliking or being uninterested in a genre is 100% appropriate. Writing it off as inherently non-musical is another thing alltogether.

Also, for those who are specifically "concerned" about gangsta rap, there's a lot that's been written about it. It holds a complicated place in black culture and American culture. I recommend that anyone who remains confused in 2024 about what the heck it's all about find a good book or two.

[AnotherScott]

On 6/3/2024 at 1:24 PM, MathOfInsects said:

No one seemed to mind Johnny Cash killing a man just to watch him die

 

That's exactly why I told the singers in my band a while back that I don't like doing that song. That line is so disturbing.

 

OTOH, I'm fine with Bohemian Rhapsody, even though the song tells a similar story. Maybe the Cash version is more blunt, but I think it's also the celebratory "demeanor" of the music, which doesn't communicate the despair that the Queen song does. And I guess also I see the Queen song as more about the music, whereas I see the Cash song as more about the words. 

[Adan]

You know who else didn't like Rap music? You guessed it . . . Hitler!

[Irena]

 

[MathOfInsects]

2 hours ago, Adan said:

You know who else didn't like Rap music? You guessed it . . . Hitler!

Oh suddenly Hitler’s bad too?? Ok, Wokey.

[David R]

Many people have beat me to the issues of dismissing a genre out of hand (and specifically hip-hop and the tired trope of its lyrics). I’m just going to drop a couple of things here – not in an attempt to convince people to like something they don’t like, but specifically to counter the argument that hip-hop is unmusical:

 

- I don’t know of another genre in the past 40 years that has so indelibly influenced MULTIPLE other genres (besides maybe dancehall reggae). The Pete Rock & J Dilla swing are everywhere in jazz, and trap hi-hat patterns and huge 808 kicks are in everything from pop to country.

 

- I listened to MCs with new ears when Robert Glasper said his biggest influence as a soloist was Busta Rhymes.

- I am biased because of my deep love of Brazilian culture, but one of the reasons I love Brazilian rappers like Emicida, Criolo and Marcelo D2 is that they understand the continuum from samba to hip-hop. They are not afraid to collaborate with elders or interact with the various traditions of Afro-Brazilian music.

(also Emicida plays some pretty legit flute)

 

- if you haven’t watched or listened to Black Thought’s epic 10 minute freestyle (10 minute continuous IMPROVISATION, for all you Keith Jarrett & Bobby McFerrin fans) it is a modern masterpiece of the genre:

 

 

 

[Docbop]

Since Sampling always comes up in talks about Hip Hop and Rap I thought I post this excellent video that gets into how a 60's song by Chuck Jackson ended up in a 1982 Michael McDonald song, that made into a 1992 song by Warren G.     Video touches on some music history of the G-Funk sound of West Coast.   

 

 

 

 

[MathOfInsects]

I always say, to anyone who tries to say that hip-hop is simplistic and anyone can "just talk over other people's music"...great. Then you go right ahead and try it. Make a compelling sample bed and put together a compelling and well-crafted rap over the top of it. Let's see how far it ends up from "Straight Outta Scranton" from "The Office."

 

I'll wait here. 

[BluMunk]

9 hours ago, Adan said:

Surprised no one yet has posted the Beato vid that gets right at the heart of this question.

If there's one thing I hate more than rap, it's BEATTTTTOOOOOOO!!!!

[CyberGene]

My very biased and outrageous opinion is rap (along with EDM and maybe some other genres) is not music. It’s some different art form that is related to music but not actually counting as music 😀 Again, that’s just my subjective opinion. And I’m not saying rap is bad per se. It’s just bad as music because it doesn’t have what I like in music: melody, harmony and rhythm all working together. There are exceptions of course (well, Herbie Hancock played along some rappers) and there are rappers who can sing and who can actually play an instrument and have ear for harmony. But generally speaking, most of rap requires different skills than what typically is expected from musicians in most other genres. 
 

To me, what rap is to music, is like what popcorn is to food. I can have popcorn for dinner but I’d rather have something else. That doesn’t mean popcorn is bad. It’s great when watching movies, right 🍿

[MAJUSCULE]

And here I thought this thread was gonna be about not pissing off promoters and club owners    

 

Perhaps I still am a sweet summer child... gently wafting in the warm breeze of naïveté...

[AnotherScott]

20 minutes ago, CyberGene said:

My very biased and outrageous opinion is rap (along with EDM and maybe some other genres) is not music. It’s some different art form that is related to music but not actually counting as music... I’m not saying rap is bad per se. It’s just bad as music because it doesn’t have what I like in music: melody, harmony and rhythm all working together

 

So it becomes a matter of definition/semantics, whether spoken word over and/or with musical elements, should itself, be categorized as music. But regardless of any argument that it might be better defined as "some different art form that is related to music but not actually counting as music," I think the world at large is comfortable calling it music. 😉 

 

For that matter, there's a lot of 20th century "serious" music that, for similar reasons, one might have a hard time calling "music" as you described it (Musique concrète, John Cage, etc.). And also even some pre-rap popular music...

 

 

 

 

 

 

[CyberGene]

Well, there’s a lot of classical music that I don’t call music either, especially serialism, etc 😀

 

For what it’s worth, I think rap is closer to poetry than music. 

[MathOfInsects]

@AnotherScott makes the point that @ProfD was getting at: We only seem to have this difficulty with definitions and the like, when the art is associated with a certain population. There are hours and hours and hours and hours of "real" music with one-note melodies or static harmonies or atrocious rhythm tracks, and in many cases those are the exact tunes folks in the "rap isn't music" camp compare rap against. "(I Can't Get No) Satisfaction" is the height of Western artistic output for you?

 

But more to the point, these same objections have been made throughout time. I have previously posted contemporaneous criticisms of jazz and then bebop and the rock n roll, and the only difference (not music, no melody, shouting instead of singing, simplistic or primitive harmonies, just a beat and nothing else, uneducated, unrefined, an affront to proper artistic sensibilities, too violent or sexual, too thing-we're-not-saying), is the target genre of the criticisms. In each case, the what the genres do have in common is their association with the same "certain population."

 

On the flip side, I think I've told this story before, but I was in the airport flying to a gig, and a woman saw my keyboard case and started a conversation about music. She was from a very conservative part of NY state, and was older, and when the conversation somehow landed on how she didn't like rap, I cringed as I got ready for the reason. Then she explained why: "The lyrics go by too fast for me and I get frustrated not knowing everything they are saying. It's the same reason I don't like opera. I like to know what people are saying."

Holy cow if that wasn't the most legitimate and baggage-free reason to dislike almost an entire genre. I ended up pissed at myself for having prejudicially profiled her. 

She pops into my head every time I gripe about mumble-rap. 

[K K]

Which brings another question... Does it take more musical talent to play rap or to be a DJ ?      Oh well... Maybe another time.

[Docbop]

10 minutes ago, K K said:

Which brings another question... Does it take more musical talent to play rap or to be a DJ ?      Oh well... Maybe another time.

 

Sign up and let us know.   Also there are different levels of DJ's besides the ones doing wedding and such. 

 

Link to Berklee College of Music   Dj class    

[ProfD]

8 hours ago, K K said:

Which brings another question... Does it take more musical talent to play rap or to be a DJ ?      Oh well... Maybe another time.

One doesn't play rap.😁

 

A rapper has the skill to write lyrics that paint a picture and rhyme and the rhythmic ability to recite those lyrics to music.

 

DJing is a skill especially when one gets to the level of a turntabalist. Being able to cut, scratch and transform in time with the music being played is the equivalent of playing an instrument. 

 

Hip-Hop definitely needs to be included in music education programs.😎

[AnotherScott]

 

25 minutes ago, MathOfInsects said:

these same objections have been made throughout time. I have previously posted contemporaneous criticisms of jazz and then bebop and the rock n roll, and the only difference (not music, no melody, shouting instead of singing, simplistic or primitive harmonies, just a beat and nothing else, uneducated, unrefined, an affront to proper artistic sensibilities, too violent or sexual, too thing-we're-not-saying), is the target genre of the criticisms. In each case, the what the genres do have in common is their association with the same "certain population."

 

OTOH, white folks who don't like rap may still be motown fans. I suspect a lot of jazz is disliked by people who don't even know what the players look like (especially as it's generally not the most accessible music to begin with). I'm not denying that there can be racial elements to all kinds of preferences, but I think you may be attributing too much to racial elements there.

 

26 minutes ago, MathOfInsects said:

"(I Can't Get No) Satisfaction" is the height of Western artistic output for you?

...

On the flip side, I think I've told this story before, but I was in the airport flying to a gig, and a woman saw my keyboard case and started a conversation about music. She was from a very conservative part of NY state, and was older, and when the conversation somehow landed on how she didn't like rap, I cringed as I got ready for the reason. Then she explained why: "The lyrics go by too fast for me and I get frustrated not knowing everything they are saying. It's the same reason I don't like opera. I like to know what people are saying."

 

She probably didn't like the Stones either. 😉 Funny thing, though... at least Satisfaction had 3 chord patterns in it, which is triple that of a lot of today's hits...

[CrossRhodes]

This track goes out to all the hip hop haters on this forum. Don't worry, Weird AL knows your love language!
 

 

[K K]

1 hour ago, ProfD said:

A rapper has the skill to write lyrics that paint a picture and rhyme and the rhythmic ability to recite those lyrics to music.

 

DJing is a skill especially when one gets to the level of a turntabalist. Being to cut, scratch and transform in time with the music being played is the equivalent of playing an instrument.

 

So you rate these abilities as musically equivalent to playing a keyboard instrument like the piano ?

[BluMunk]

50 minutes ago, K K said:

 

So you rate these abilities as musically equivalent to playing a keyboard instrument like the piano ?

Since when is music about whether or not ability is “equivalent”?

 

Is a bodhran player not “musically equivalent” to a pianist? What does that comparison even mean?

[ProfD]

1 hour ago, K K said:

So you rate these abilities as musically equivalent to playing a keyboard instrument like the piano ?

@BluMunk addressed it but along the same lines, there's nothing to rate or an equivalence.😎

[Docbop]

1 hour ago, K K said:

 

So you rate these abilities as musically equivalent to playing a keyboard instrument like the piano ?

 

Why don't you ask pianist Herbie Hancock,  Robert Glasper, Terrace Martin,  Scott Storch, Mike Dean then Bob James,  Amad Jamal, Roy Ayers, and all the Jazz greats whose records they sampled.   All those Hip Hop artists who were sampling records were listening to all genres of music and picking great section to use to create new art with.   

 

Also today in all genres of music the record studio itself is now an considered a instrument same as a piano or other instrument.  The producers and engineer and how they use the studio as part of the creative process.    When you really dive deep in how today's music is created it really expands what modern music.   Look at Jacob Collier and songs with over 700 tracks for one song.    There is way more going on today's in making music than since digital came to recording world. 

[AnotherScott]

There is possibly a distinction to be made between the art of sound and the art of music.

[Leroy C]

4 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

There is possibly a distinction to be made between the art of sound and the art of music.

And the Art of Noise ...

[Irena]

8 minutes ago, Leroy C said:

And the Art of Noise ...

...whose seminal track Metaforce is made so by rapper Rakim's masterful flow.

 

[jazzpiano88]

I was surprised that CBS Sports is now covering Poker as a Sporting Event.   Which reminded me of a New Analogy:

 

Poker is to Sports,  as

Rap is to Music. 

 

That's where we are.  Doyle Brunson versus P. Diddy for the future of your kids. 

 

[MathOfInsects]

8 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

 

 

OTOH, white folks who don't like rap may still be motown fans. I suspect a lot of jazz is disliked by people who don't even know what the players look like (especially as it's generally not the most accessible music to begin with). I'm not denying that there can be racial elements to all kinds of preferences, but I think you may be attributing too much to racial elements there.

Right....TODAY. But I was referring to contemporaneous responses, which were not subtle or mysterious about those elements. 

 

The same will happen with hip-hop over time. It already has, in large part--particularly Golden Age stuff.