New M4 iPad Pro

[jerrythek]

On 5/7/2024 at 1:49 PM, AnotherScott said:

There is no evidence that the 30% Apple fee is what keeps them out of the market (especially when they probably give just about as much to Sweetwater, Guitar Center, etc., if you buy the software via that route). There are other factors at play. Including, probably, the fact that, AFAIK, the iPad OS still does not support the same memory architecture for handling huge data sets a la Kontakt. There's also still a marketing side, as developers can be torn between the lower software prices iOS people have come to expect, while not wanting to devalue their main product, either. For example, do you think Omnisphere could charge nearly as much for a truly feature-equivalent iOS version as they do on the desktop? And if they charge much less, does that devalue and/or reduce the sales of their profitable desktop products? My guess... there may be 99 reasons these apps aren't on iOS, but the 30% fee probably ain't one.

From my experience/perspective this is the #1 issue for companies who have mid-to higher priced products out there. Can they sell enough on iOS to make up for the potential lost/migrated sales? They can't help but devalue their existing products. Some will try to do a feature-lite version with hooks to go back to the computer (think Cubasis), but unless a case can be made that there are enough sales, or as others have mentioned, there is a competitive threat, it's a hard decision to make/justify.

 

That said, many will say that those companies are not seeing the future, and trying to hold onto the situation they currently enjoy. Kind of like the record companies were about albums and CDs versus downloads and streaming. Why do I see Bob Lefsetz standing on my shoulder as I write this? 

[AnotherScott]

Even Apple themselves had to find a creative solution... How to bring Logic to iPad without cannibalizing high-priced desktop Logic sales, and without offering a product priced out of line with what an iPad user expects? Enter the subscription model. Though Apple's situation is unique, in that making their software available on iPad can also increase their revenue from the sales of more iPads (whether to new customers, or to prompt more existing iPad customers to upgrade their models).

[RABid]

It will be interesting to see what Apple charges to upgrade Logic Pro to version 2 on the MacBook. I'm guessing enough to make iPad subscribers feel better about $5 a month.

[Paul Woodward]

50 minutes ago, RABid said:

It will be interesting to see what Apple charges to upgrade Logic Pro to version 2 on the MacBook. I'm guessing enough to make iPad subscribers feel better about $5 a month.

It’s a free upgrade for existing owners, albeit just an upgrade to 11.0 on the Mac, not really version 2. The iPad upgrade is also free for existing subscribers.

[CrossRhodes]

On 5/7/2024 at 8:58 AM, Paul Woodward said:

Annoyingly, the Pencil Pro won’t work with the M2 iPad Pro nor do older devices work with the new iPads. It’s essentially a reboot for the iPad range leaving a whole range of devices (four pencils?) and accessories that might not work together if you don’t do your research.

I guess Apple are hoping people will just keep it nice and simple and buy into the new gear and then they can phase out older models/accessories?

 

Just curious what makes the Pencil pro so intriguing to you? I don’t see anything about it that makes me want to upgrade from the current Apple Pencil. Maybe I’m missing something?

[Paul Woodward]

1 hour ago, CrossRhodes said:

Just curious what makes the Pencil pro so intriguing to you? I don’t see anything about it that makes me want to upgrade from the current Apple Pencil. Maybe I’m missing something?

Do you use it more like a stylus? I use my iPad pro primarily for art and design (Procreate, Onshape 3D CAD). The haptic feedback, barrel roll, squeeze gestures  and reportedly improved battery are all useful improvements...plus I have nearly lost it several times so find my is priceless. Used my old one to death so a new version at the same price would have been a no brainer.

[CrossRhodes]

24 minutes ago, Paul Woodward said:

Do you use it more like a stylus? I use my iPad pro primarily for art and design (Procreate, Onshape 3D CAD). The haptic feedback, barrel roll, squeeze gestures  and reportedly improved battery are all useful improvements...plus I have nearly lost it several times so find my is priceless. Used my old one to death so a new version at the same price would have been a no brainer.

Yeah I use it with Procreate, Procreate Dreams, Fresco and Illustrator mainly for motion design. I guess there's nothing about those updates that would significantly improve my current workflow and get me to throw down $169. Maybe if I try it out I will feel differently but like yourself, I'm not updating to the latest iPad so it's a moot point.

I think Brownlee does a good job of echoing what most of us are feeling about these new "upgrades".
 

 

[JoJoB3]

So. Many. Apple. Drones.

If it can't run full applications it's another web browsing/email toy.

[analogika]

31 minutes ago, JoJoB3 said:

So. Many. Apple. Drones.

If it can't run full applications it's another web browsing/email toy.

 

What's a "full application"?

 

Final Cut Pro? https://www.apple.com/final-cut-pro-for-ipad/
Logic Pro? https://www.apple.com/logic-pro-for-ipad/

Photoshop? https://www.adobe.com/products/photoshop/ipad.html

Affinity Designer (Vector graphics)? https://affinity.serif.com/en-gb/designer/

Camelot Pro? https://audiomodeling.com/camelot/features/
Lightroom? https://www.adobe.com/products/photoshop-lightroom/features.html

Procreate? https://procreate.com/ipad

 

Or are you talking about running the full desktop versions of already existing applications? Why would that be a criterion? Macintosh couldn't run Windows applications for decades. ProTools/Photoshop/Quark Xpress users were laughing all the way to the bank at the DOS/Windows drones calling their tools of business "toys" for the longest time. 

Or is it about supporting the exact same functionality on all platforms? 

To this day, Excel for Mac does not support some of the most advanced functions and corporate integration of the Windows version. Does this make Macs "toys"? 

Logic Pro for iPad now does stuff that Logic for Mac did not do ten, fifteen years ago. Were Macs "toys" back then? Why would an iPad be? 

[ElmerJFudd]

35 minutes ago, analogika said:

 

What's a "full application"?

 

Final Cut Pro? https://www.apple.com/final-cut-pro-for-ipad/
Logic Pro? https://www.apple.com/logic-pro-for-ipad/

Photoshop? https://www.adobe.com/products/photoshop/ipad.html

Affinity Designer (Vector graphics)? https://affinity.serif.com/en-gb/designer/

Camelot Pro? https://audiomodeling.com/camelot/features/
Lightroom? https://www.adobe.com/products/photoshop-lightroom/features.html

Procreate? https://procreate.com/ipad

 

Or are you talking about running the full desktop versions of already existing applications? Why would that be a criterion? Macintosh couldn't run Windows applications for decades. ProTools/Photoshop/Quark Xpress users were laughing all the way to the bank at the DOS/Windows drones calling their tools of business "toys" for the longest time. 

Or is it about supporting the exact same functionality on all platforms? 

To this day, Excel for Mac does not support some of the most advanced functions and corporate integration of the Windows version. Does this make Macs "toys"? 

Logic Pro for iPad now does stuff that Logic for Mac did not do ten, fifteen years ago. Were Macs "toys" back then? Why would an iPad be? 

 

An interesting thing here is macOS is capable of running iOS/iPad OS apps if the developer supports it.  

But obviously, you need Apple Silicon and the most recent version of macOS to do it. 

MacBook Air from late 2020 and later

Mac mini from late 2020 and later

MacBook Pro 13-inch from late 2020 and later

MacBook Pro 14-inch and 16-inch from 2021 and later

iMac from 2021 and later

Mac Studio from 2022 and later

 

To download iPhone and iPad apps on your Mac, launch the App Store from your computer and click your account name in the bottom-left corner. This will show the apps you have downloaded and purchased through your account, across various devices.

Select the iPhone & iPad Apps text to see all the apps from those devices that can be installed to your Mac. Paid apps will be available to download again for free, though some may need to have a current subscription to fully function.  You can also download apps in your family share purchased with other accounts in your family. 

 

Once you have the app you need downloaded you just need to setup alternative touch controls, click the app name in the top-left corner of the screen. Select Settings and turn on Touch Alternatives.

 

[analogika]

6 minutes ago, ElmerJFudd said:

 

An interesting thing here is macOS is capable of running iOS/iPad OS apps if the developer supports it.  

 

I was addressing @JoJoB3's suggestion regarding the iPad being just "another web browsing/email toy". 

[ElmerJFudd]

Just now, analogika said:

 

I was addressing @JoJoB3's suggestion regarding the iPad being just "another web browsing/email toy". 

At inception, ok, early iPads were conceived as media consumption devices.   I don't think Jobs or anyone at Apple imagined (at least at first) that developers would find so many productive and professional uses for the devices, pushing Apple to add capabilities to iOS/iPadOS and eventually concede that users wanted an iPad Pro with an M4, 8gb RAM and 2tb of storage.  This piece of tech is over $2k and certainly not a toy.   In fact, many people who have adapted their work habits to the iPad certainly do pass on the desktop/laptop macOS devices.  They don't need them anymore.  It's not for everyone, but only we can decide that for ourselves.  

[Motif88]

I'm am buying a new 13" iPad Pro. My 2018 iPad Pro has been great, along with the Magic Keyboard and Apple Pencil 2. I use my iPad for both business and pleasure. Extensive note taking via Notability finally got me to stop using my Moleskine and scanning pages in 2018. After almost 6 years with trade in $$ and 0% interest via my Apple Card, it wasn't a hard decision. 

 

Maybe the Logic Pro 2 for the iPad will get me to use it for music. So far, I've yet to do that as I have plenty of hardware and software horsepower without the iPad. FYI - the Nektar CS12 is a great Logic controller at fraction of the cost of SSL configs.

[HammondDave]

I love all my apple devices. My 2020 iPad M1 pro is the center of my performance rig. You can’t beat the screen size and the power. But now I am so tempted to buy this new tricked out M4. As great as my present iPad screen is, the tandem OLED looks absolutely amazing!  Also, the thing is wafer thin!  Can I justify it?  You bet!  

[PlayBay]

as with another post I have seen. IpadOS and the current rules around apps, just concerns me. Apple can at any point pull the app from the app store. I have an Ipad M1 and I have probably 20 or so apps, free or bought in sales for not a lot. I think the pianoteq licensing route is the better option, where you have an account outside the app store. It would suck that you have no control over what ever apple decides. 

 

This is from the apple developer support 

 

What types of apps will be affected?

Apps in all categories on the App Store will be evaluated to make sure they function as expected, follow current review guidelines, and are up to date.

Developers of apps that have not been updated within the last three years and fail to meet a minimal download threshold — meaning the app has not been downloaded at all or extremely few times during a rolling 12 month period — receive an email notifying them that their app has been identified for possible removal from the App Store.

 

Of course VSTs on normal desktops are also susceptible to this in terms of being supported by a DAW or chipset etc, but the timeframes tend to be over many more years.

 

Maybe the solution is as soon as your favourite app is no longer supported on IpadOS. Switch of updates, wifi and just use the device as sound module stuck in time - a Roland JV1080 of sorts??

 

[Motif88]

On 5/9/2024 at 4:26 PM, Motif88 said:

I'm am buying a new 13" iPad Pro. My 2018 iPad Pro has been great, along with the Magic Keyboard and Apple Pencil 2. I use my iPad for both business and pleasure. Extensive note taking via Notability finally got me to stop using my Moleskine and scanning pages in 2018. After almost 6 years with trade in $$ and 0% interest via my Apple Card, it wasn't a hard decision. 

 

Maybe the Logic Pro 2 for the iPad will get me to use it for music. So far, I've yet to do that as I have plenty of hardware and software horsepower without the iPad. FYI - the Nektar CS12 is a great Logic controller at fraction of the cost of SSL configs.

A few days in and I love my new iPad Pro 13”. The new functionality of the Pencil Pro and new Magic Keyboard are great…I’m still getting used to the fact that I now I have function keys on the Magic Keyboard for brightness, playback and volume to name a few. I’m so used to other actions/gestures to control those. Much better user experience!

I’ve seen complaints about the volume controls buttons function/direction. After a few days the new method makes more sense as the function is oriented to the position of screen, intent and alignment with button movement.

[TJ Cornish]

On 5/13/2024 at 5:29 PM, ngextreme said:

as with another post I have seen. IpadOS and the current rules around apps, just concerns me. Apple can at any point pull the app from the app store. I have an Ipad M1 and I have probably 20 or so apps, free or bought in sales for not a lot. I think the pianoteq licensing route is the better option, where you have an account outside the app store. It would suck that you have no control over what ever apple decides. 

 

This is from the apple developer support 

 

What types of apps will be affected?

Apps in all categories on the App Store will be evaluated to make sure they function as expected, follow current review guidelines, and are up to date.

Developers of apps that have not been updated within the last three years and fail to meet a minimal download threshold — meaning the app has not been downloaded at all or extremely few times during a rolling 12 month period — receive an email notifying them that their app has been identified for possible removal from the App Store.

 

Of course VSTs on normal desktops are also susceptible to this in terms of being supported by a DAW or chipset etc, but the timeframes tend to be over many more years.

 

Maybe the solution is as soon as your favourite app is no longer supported on IpadOS. Switch of updates, wifi and just use the device as sound module stuck in time - a Roland JV1080 of sorts??

 

Apple’s management of their app ecosystem is a not insignificant part of the Apple secret sauce of stability. It’s not inherently a bad thing. Software is renting. All software has a shelf life, whether on IOS or Mac/PC. You can make the argument as to whether this is a shorter or longer timeline than hardware, which also has a point where it dies or requires $$$ to repair.

 

Apple screwed me with Aperture a decade ago; I can’t complain about Logic or FinalCut which I paid for in I think 2009!? And have had free updates for 15 years.

[Reezekeys]

On 5/7/2024 at 8:04 PM, miden said:

I am seriously considering ditching the Mac mini (M2 Pro) and the whole "desktop paradigm" and springing for one of these with the magic keyboard and the pencil....IE go totally over to iOS and using Logic, and the myriad other available iOS audio apps.

  

On 5/7/2024 at 11:34 PM, ElmerJFudd said:

Might you consider a MacBook Air?  All your software and plugin fx and instruments would migrate with you to a laptop where on iOS/iPad OS you look for represents. 

 

I'm with Elmer on this one too. I can't think of anything I do on DP or Logic on my Air that would benefit or be easier to do on a touch screen. Yes I heard Apple opimized Logic for the iPad to use touch, haven't experienced it though. I guess I'm too much of an old dog to learn new tricks when it comes to using a DAW. Given the portability and long battery life of the AS laptops, it would take some unique and useful tablet-only innovations to make me want to switch. However the major stumbling block now appears to be iOS itself, judging by the commentary I see about the new M4 iPad Pros' potential being hobbled by it.

[Paul Woodward]

Bit of a quandary for Apple. They have tablets with more power than their laptops, but refuse to give them a more professional OS as it would effectively impact their laptop sales. If an M4 iPad had a full OS and you added the Magic Keyboard, you would have a MacBook Pro with detachable screen. Yet what to do with all that power……

[HammondDave]

1 hour ago, Paul Woodward said:

Bit of a quandary for Apple. They have tablets with more power than their laptops, but refuse to give them a more professional OS as it would effectively impact their laptop sales. If an M4 iPad had a full OS and you added the Magic Keyboard, you would have a MacBook Pro with detachable screen. Yet what to do with all that power……

Exactly correct!  It will be very interesting to see what pops up in June at WWDC. If there is no OS update that enables the iPad to run these apps, then there is no reason to pay $1300 for the M4 chip in a device that does not run specialized advanced industry specific software.  They would be crippling their iPads with limited software choices.  

[Paul Woodward]

A bit like putting a V8 engine on a tuk tuk. Overkill if you can’t put your foot down and use it. Logic is great, but MainStage is the dream. I see no reason it shouldn’t be on the iPad given how it’s based on Logic and they are pushing it as a music performance and recording device. That with my existing apps sounds like the perfect setup.

[analogika]

19 hours ago, Paul Woodward said:

Bit of a quandary for Apple. They have tablets with more power than their laptops, but refuse to give them a more professional OS as it would effectively impact their laptop sales. If an M4 iPad had a full OS and you added the Magic Keyboard, you would have a MacBook Pro with detachable screen. Yet what to do with all that power……

 

Your logic doesn't add up here, because an M4 iPad Pro 13" with 256GB and a Magic Keyboard (no Pencil) costs 50€ less than a 14" M3 MacBook Pro, or a whopping 650€ more than a 13" M3 Macbook Air. If you bring it up to an equivalent 512GB, it's actually 200€ more expensive than the entry-level MacBook Pro. 

Why would Apple cripple that iPad because it would "effectively impact their laptop sales"? 

[PlayBay]

Windows have now just released the Surface Pro with Snapdragon and it costs less than the Ipad Pro M4 for the surface LCD version. They also have an Oled version too. Full desktop experience with M3 performance and better battery life!!! I will wait until all the youtubers get their tests down. But then, windows sucks as a tablet. 

[Ibarch]

6 hours ago, analogika said:

 

Your logic doesn't add up here, because an M4 iPad Pro 13" with 256GB and a Magic Keyboard (no Pencil) costs 50€ less than a 14" M3 MacBook Pro, or a whopping 650€ more than a 13" M3 Macbook Air. If you bring it up to an equivalent 512GB, it's actually 200€ more expensive than the entry-level MacBook Pro. 

Why would Apple cripple that iPad because it would "effectively impact their laptop sales"? 

 

Because right now they can sell both an iPad and laptop to a large number of people. 

 

How many people would need both devices if Apple put MacOS on an iPad and a touch screen on a Mac book?

 

It is profit rather than customer need that drives the modern day Apple. 

[Docbop]

10 minutes ago, Ibarch said:

It is profit rather than customer need that drives the modern day Apple. 

 

I would drop the word modern Apple has always been driven by profit margins Job was obsessed with it. 

[analogika]

2 hours ago, Ibarch said:

 

Because right now they can sell both an iPad and laptop to a large number of people. 

Ah, gotcha. I don't have the numbers, but I could imagine that happening. 

 

It's worth noting that the M4 iPad Pro is NOT a MacBook Pro equivalent, but a MacBook AIR equivalent. The entry-level MacBook Pro has the base M3 processor, but so does the Air — the difference is in the ports and the active cooling. 

Those new Surfaces all have fans, BTW. Not knocking them; just noting. I'll be waiting for real-world tests to see whether they actually bear out the promises. 

 

2 hours ago, Ibarch said:

 

Because right now they can sell both an iPad and laptop to a large number of people. 

 

How many people would need both devices if Apple put MacOS on an iPad and a touch screen on a Mac book?

 

That really depends.

Would it be like the Surface — a worse iPad AND a worse laptop, but with a handful of neat perks? If so, I'd a) hope Apple never releases them, and b) if Apple does, people may not "need" both devices, but still opt for separate units that are better at what they do. 

If Apple figures out a way to make an iPad Pro a better computer than a MacBook Air (it already is in a number of scenarios, but crucially fails in major ways in others), then I'm sure Apple will be the last to worry about selling people a 1600€ iPad with Pencil/Keyboard Folio instead of a 1200€ MacBook Air. 🙂  

 

I'm waiting for the real-world reviews on Surface, and for the WWDC and what Apple has in store for iPadOS. 

Exciting times! 

[Ibarch]

3 minutes ago, analogika said:

Ah, gotcha. I don't have the numbers, but I could imagine that happening. 

 

It's worth noting that the M4 iPad Pro is NOT a MacBook Pro equivalent, but a MacBook AIR equivalent. The entry-level MacBook Pro has the base M3 processor, but so does the Air — the difference is in the ports and the active cooling. 

Those new Surfaces all have fans, BTW. Not knocking them; just noting. I'll be waiting for real-world tests to see whether they actually bear out the promises. 

 

 

That really depends.

Would it be like the Surface — a worse iPad AND a worse laptop, but with a handful of neat perks? If so, I'd a) hope Apple never releases them, and b) if Apple does, people may not "need" both devices, but still opt for separate units that are better at what they do. 

If Apple figures out a way to make an iPad Pro a better computer than a MacBook Air (it already is in a number of scenarios), then I'm sure Apple will be the last to worry about selling people a 1600€ iPad with Pencil/Keyboard Folio instead of a 1200€ MacBook Air. 🙂  

 

This concept that something has to be the absolute best or it isnt worth doing doesn't make sense to me. 99.9% of laptops are not the best laptop. 

 

The Surface Pro is appealing precisely because it is both a laptop and a tablet. It may not be the fastest laptop but it is pretty good and faster than the majority of laptops that are sold every year. It is absolutely capable of running my music libraries and I use it both at home for recording and for live playing. In my opinion there is nothing on the iPad that can get close to Keyscape and Omnisphere in sound quality and it runs all my Roland Cloud synths too. 

 

The surface Pro isn't designed as an iPad replacement. It doesn't need to be. It is a full PC that converts to tablet format whenever desired. It doesn't need an app store, it can run every full Windows program there is. How is that wait for Mainstage on iPad going? 

 

Price wise, I would have thought that Apple users would appreciate the opportunity to pay more for seemingly equivalent spec kit, compared to that from other manufacturers. They have proudly been taken to the cleaners for every gig of Ram for a generation. 

 

The surface pro isn't perfect, nor is it for everyone. It does run a little warm and need a fan which isn't silent. The M range Macs have it beat there. Battery life isn't really an issue but more is always better. The most irritating factor is that Microsoft seem to run a generation behind when choosing their chips, but maybe that will change. 

 

I think comments such as 'I wouldn't want Apple to make X' are ridiculous. So, it wouldn't be for you. So what? I wish Apple would make a touch screen MacOS or tablet with a grown up OS because it would provide a massive boost to so many people in so many ways. I don't delight in seeing a crippled iPad or take pleasure at MacOS  lack of a touch interface. I'm confident it would make everyone's experience better and the nonsense that gets churned out on a reoccurring basis about touch doesn't work or iPadOS is just fine would be consigned to history should Apple ever change. 

 

Hybrid laptops that can be tablets too are brilliant. I hope one day every one can get the chance to find out. 

[analogika]

1 hour ago, Ibarch said:

 

This concept that something has to be the absolute best or it isnt worth doing doesn't make sense to me. 99.9% of laptops are not the best laptop. 

 

Not "the best" — just better. If the product you're making isn't going to better at doing what it does than the existing alternatives, it's not worth making. 

iPad exists because it's a LOT better at some things than iPhone, and a LOT better at some things than a Mac. If moving it closer to the Mac makes it a worse iPad AND a worse Mac, then Apple is (hopefully) not going to do it. 

That's an attitude much of the Windows world never understood, and the world is filled with mediocre products because of it. 

[TJ Cornish]

37 minutes ago, analogika said:

 

Not "the best" — just better. If the product you're making isn't going to better at doing what it does than the existing alternatives, it's not worth making. 

iPad exists because it's a LOT better at some things than iPhone, and a LOT better at some things than a Mac. If moving it closer to the Mac makes it a worse iPad AND a worse Mac, then Apple is (hopefully) not going to do it. 

That's an attitude much of the Windows world never understood, and the world is filled with mediocre products because of it. 

Agreed - I want my IPad to stay an IPad. I have Microsoft Surfaces as well and they aren’t the same. Windows tablet mode is uninspiring. The limitations of IOS make it not suck. 

[Ibarch]

54 minutes ago, analogika said:

 

Not "the best" — just better. If the product you're making isn't going to better at doing what it does than the existing alternatives, it's not worth making. 

iPad exists because it's a LOT better at some things than iPhone, and a LOT better at some things than a Mac. If moving it closer to the Mac makes it a worse iPad AND a worse Mac, then Apple is (hopefully) not going to do it. 

That's an attitude much of the Windows world never understood, and the world is filled with mediocre products because of it. 

 

A Macbook without a touchscreen is not better. An iPad with a crippled OS is not better. 

 

Deliberately limiting products in order to make more profit is not better - except for shareholders. It is nothing more than marketing spin. This is something that much of the Apple world has never understood.