DX7 Bass in its prime! Peter Cetera

[dalpozlead]

NEW SONG! LoL🙃 nevertheless I can't stop listening to this backing track... is a masterpiece for synth bass.

 

 

[jazzpiano88]

This is interesting.    Michael Omartian arranged and played keyboards/synths on these Peter Cetera records. 

 

The Synth strings were DX1 and Omar grimaces and shudders as to how bad they sound today.

 

Here is Rick Beato interviewing Omar on the songs. "The Next Time I Fall", in particular, whom Omar brought in the unknown Amy Grant based on him knowing her from his background in Christian music.   What a freaking Genius!!

 

 

[Jim Alfredson]

It's an amazing production all around. Lots of cheese factor yet sneaky changes (a David Foster hallmark), era-defining DX7 goodness, and great arrangement. It helps that Peter Cetera has one of those voices that is incredible, almost otherworldly.

One thing to note: This was his first number 1 hit as a solo artist, from his debut album after he left Chicago. He was 42 years old when this hit. I think that in and of itself is stunning. Say what you want about the guy but it took a lot of courage to leave Chicago at the height of their popularity and go solo at his age. And then to have a string of number 1's afterwards is simply remarkable. 

It also speaks to how drastically the business has changed since then. The charts are so youth orientated and dominated that you just don't see that kind of stuff anymore, with the exception of Beyoncé, who is 42 as well and just reached #1 with Texas Hold 'Em. The 80s were special in that regard. You had the new acts alongside bands and artists that started in the late 60s and 70s, all mashed up on the charts together. Look at the Billboard Top 100 for 1986, when Glory of Love was released, and you see Stevie Wonder, Dionne Warwick, Peter Gabriel, Elton John, Genesis, Michael McDonald, and Lionel Richie next to Madonna, Simple Minds, Pet Shop Boys, Human League, Simply Red, Prince, INXS, Howard Jones, OMD, and other quintessential 80s artists.

I think about this stuff often. My favorite band, Genesis, gets a lot of flack for going pop, but to me it's another example of taking a huge risk. Those guys were all in their late 30s when Invisible Touch hit. They'd been at it for over half their lives already. And far from selling out, they made really interesting pop that sounds like nobody else. I'm not sure how anybody can fault that. You don't have to like it, but it's still remarkable. It's hard to see someone making it today like that. The business is just so different.

[jazzpiano88]

Agreed.   Peter was the only one in the band who *could* go solo, so it made perfect sense.  And he succeeded.     The fact that the rest of the band couldn't handle it was their problem.    Peter, unlike Henley and Frey, is a gem of a human being. 

[dalpozlead]

9 hours ago, jazzpiano88 said:

This is interesting.    Michael Omartian arranged and played keyboards/synths on these Peter Cetera records. 

 

The Synth strings were DX1 and Omar grimaces and shudders as to how bad they sound today.

 

Here is Rick Beato interviewing Omar on the songs. "The Next Time I Fall", in particular, whom Omar brought in the unknown Amy Grant based on him knowing her from his background in Christian music.   What a freaking Genius!!

 

 

Thanks for reminding me of this interview!

and what a fantastic piano sound!!!!!

[AROIOS]

On 4/5/2024 at 7:57 AM, dalpozlead said:

NEW SONG! LoL🙃 nevertheless I can't stop listening to this backing track... is a masterpiece for synth bass.

The sustain of it doesn't sound like an DX7 bass to me, probably layered with a 360 Systems MIDI Bass popular around that time.

And not to dismiss your personal preferences brother, but this bass track is pretty run-of-the-mill. To call it a masterpiece is an overstatement.
 

 

[J.F.N.]

 

That sounds an awful lot of FM to me!

[AROIOS]

5 hours ago, J.F.N. said:

That sounds an awful lot of FM to me!

Only the attack sounds FM-ish, the swirl and growl in the sustain sounded very analog, and the static pattern of that swirl and growl hints at samples of analog being used.

[J.F.N.]

FM : "Frequency Modulation... "

 

https://youtu.be/6esDuNzeSaI?si=MS_UE9idKYpAd5Tr

[jazzpiano88]

Could be a combination.  We know the DX1 was used as well as PPG and Fairlight CMI.   The GS1 could growl/swirl like that too with its aftertouch (so too the DX1).   I'd bet the DX1.

[Husker]

I'm an 80s kid, a teenager when those songs came out.   As much as it pains me to admit it, I love those cheesy songs.  Of course, they do remind me of how bad I was with girls.....

[Justin Havu]

On 4/5/2024 at 11:52 PM, Jim Alfredson said:

 from his debut album after he left Chicago. 

 

Actually, his 2nd album.  His debut was released in 81, with no real support from the label; apparently they didn't want it to interfere with Chicago's upcoming album.  Livin' in the Limelight, the only hit off the album, peaked at #6 on the Billboard Mainstream Rock chart.

[ksoper]

Where was Beato in 1991 that he hadn't heard the #1 song (for 2 weeks) on the Billboard Hot 100?  Amy Grant's "Baby Baby" was enormous. 

 

[jazzpiano88]

2 minutes ago, ksoper said:

Where was Beato in 1991 that he hadn't heard the #1 song (for 2 weeks) on the Billboard Hot 100?  Amy Grant's "Baby Baby" was enormous.

 

 1986 < 1991  Last I checked.

[ksoper]

1 minute ago, jazzpiano88 said:

 

 1986 < 1991  Last I checked.

 

Point taken.  My bad.  

[AROIOS]

5 hours ago, J.F.N. said:

FM : "Frequency Modulation... "

 

https://youtu.be/6esDuNzeSaI?si=MS_UE9idKYpAd5Tr

Great demonstration of emulating analog filter and pulsation with FM, thanks for the share.

[tapes]

Funny, I never even noticed the odd long decay on that bass until hearing that isolated stem! Back then they used to combine FM (DX and Synclavier) with a MiniMoog, like on 'Thriller'.

 

The bass sounds hilarious by itself, but Foster wrote such great songs.

[tapes]

Off-topic, but I think it's Dann Huff playing the guitar part. Here's a video where he breaks it down - so good.

 

 

 

[Outkaster]

On 4/5/2024 at 11:52 PM, Jim Alfredson said:

It's an amazing production all around. Lots of cheese factor yet sneaky changes (a David Foster hallmark), era-defining DX7 goodness, and great arrangement. It helps that Peter Cetera has one of those voices that is incredible, almost otherworldly.

One thing to note: This was his first number 1 hit as a solo artist, from his debut album after he left Chicago. He was 42 years old when this hit. I think that in and of itself is stunning. Say what you want about the guy but it took a lot of courage to leave Chicago at the height of their popularity and go solo at his age. And then to have a string of number 1's afterwards is simply remarkable. 

It also speaks to how drastically the business has changed since then. The charts are so youth orientated and dominated that you just don't see that kind of stuff anymore, with the exception of Beyoncé, who is 42 as well and just reached #1 with Texas Hold 'Em. The 80s were special in that regard. You had the new acts alongside bands and artists that started in the late 60s and 70s, all mashed up on the charts together. Look at the Billboard Top 100 for 1986, when Glory of Love was released, and you see Stevie Wonder, Dionne Warwick, Peter Gabriel, Elton John, Genesis, Michael McDonald, and Lionel Richie next to Madonna, Simple Minds, Pet Shop Boys, Human League, Simply Red, Prince, INXS, Howard Jones, OMD, and other quintessential 80s artists.

I think about this stuff often. My favorite band, Genesis, gets a lot of flack for going pop, but to me it's another example of taking a huge risk. Those guys were all in their late 30s when Invisible Touch hit. They'd been at it for over half their lives already. And far from selling out, they made really interesting pop that sounds like nobody else. I'm not sure how anybody can fault that. You don't have to like it, but it's still remarkable. It's hard to see someone making it today like that. The business is just so different.

 

 

The other thing is that Peter never wanted to leave Chicago but tour on his own and with Chicago.  I imagine Pankow was insecure about it from what I have heard and read.  They gave Cetera an ultimatum, so he quit in 1985-1986. It was in the news I remember when I graduated HS. Make no mistake that Cetera is a little cocky himself.  The video explosion put Peter out front when Chicago was a democratically run band (If there is such a thing)  People assumed he was the leader of the band and his friendship with Foster didn’t help.  Chicago was already in middle age when they had a second coming.  A lot of people on the fan pages don’t like that version of the band but Chicago profited from Foster’s production with loosing one of the best singers around at the same time.

[dalpozlead]

13 hours ago, AROIOS said:

The sustain of it doesn't sound like an DX7 bass to me, probably layered with a 360 Systems MIDI Bass popular around that time.

And not to dismiss your personal preferences brother, but this bass track is pretty run-of-the-mill. To call it a masterpiece is an overstatement.
 

 

can we say this is the "real" stem? if so, is it coming from the old "Jammit" app, or something similar...?

[Outkaster]

8 hours ago, tapes said:

Off-topic, but I think it's Dann Huff playing the guitar part. Here's a video where he breaks it down - so good.

 

 

 

I saw this. It's pretty cool. 

[kpl1228]

I just assumed that DX bass would not be full or punchy enough and assumed it would be done, as usual in the 80s, by a heavily processed Minimoog or Moog Source. Good to know.

Cetera was a talent and was at the right place at the right time and networked and met the right people (Foster). Lamm was another good looking guy with a good voice, but not a '80's tenor and not ambitious enough, and didn't make the leap. Worked out well for them with Scheff though.

Plus Cetera dropped the 70s baby fat and started looking like an 80's private tennis club pro. Turn up that Izod polo collar and you're all set!

[Outkaster]

Thing is he never got a long with Foster at first but they became allies. 

[AROIOS]

14 hours ago, tapes said:

Funny, I never even noticed the odd long decay on that bass until hearing that isolated stem! Back then they used to combine FM (DX and Synclavier) with a MiniMoog, like on 'Thriller'.

That long swirling decay is the most definitive feature of the 80's/David Foster style power ballad synth bass. It fills up the sparse arrangements in the verse of a power ballad much better than a real bass could.

And yes, bass layering was common at the time. "Thriller"'s bass was actually done on a ARP 2600 with a Moog ladder filter. So Minimoog can definitely do a convincing job of covering it.
 

 

[AROIOS]

14 hours ago, tapes said:

...

The bass sounds hilarious by itself, but Foster wrote such great songs.

That's one of the biggest arrangement/mixing lessons I learned from transcribing and listening to original mix stems of my favorite Pop tunes: Density management.

The individual parts of those tunes are often much simpler than I thought or what I would write. It's the brilliant interplay among these simple parts, plus the genius of the mix engineers, that turned those parts into a final product greater than the simple sum of them.

[AROIOS]

7 hours ago, dalpozlead said:

can we say this is the "real" stem? if so, is it coming from the old "Jammit" app, or something similar...?

Yes it is, with volume normalized/compressed. It was ripped from the game Rock Band.

[Mark Zeger]

Re: “Next Time I Fall In Love”, allow me to segue to its writer, Bobby Caldwell. Love his music. His album Heart Of Mine generated hits for Cetera & Grant, the title cut for Boz Scaggs, and “All Or Nothing At All” for Al Jarreau. Those are 3 of the first 4 songs on the album!

 

 

[Reezekeys]

I'm gonna guess that swirly sustain on the bass is eight DXs... yes the TX816 which I saw a lot of in studios at that time. You take one patch, put it on all eight modules, and detune them slightly from one another. That's the "swirl." This was done with many FM sounds, to fatten them up.

[AROIOS]

1 hour ago, Reezekeys said:

I'm gonna guess that swirly sustain on the bass is eight DXs... yes the TX816 which I saw a lot of in studios at that time. You take one patch, put it on all eight modules, and detune them slightly from one another. That's the "swirl." This was done with many FM sounds, to fatten them up.

That's a great idea. I've done it with electric piano patches for years but never thought of applying it on FM basses.

[AROIOS]

3 hours ago, Mark Zeger said:

Re: “Next Time I Fall In Love”, allow me to segue to its writer, Bobby Caldwell. Love his music. His album Heart Of Mine generated hits for Cetera & Grant, the title cut for Boz Scaggs, and “All Or Nothing At All” for Al Jarreau. Those are 3 of the first 4 songs on the album!

Besides being a great songwriter, he's also got a distinctive Blue-Eyed-Soul voice. My favorite cover of The Emotions' "Don't Ask My Neighbors" was from Bobby.