Organ clone internal sims (gas related)

[JoJoB3]

Likely a 'duh' to some here but perhaps of help to others.

 

Ok so had a last min gig with some fun humans  which didn't call for nor was very conducive to bringing the real/vintage rig. I decided to bring the XK3c single and put a VR09 above, held off on the 122 at last minute and loaded a KXD15.

 

Overtime in home studio I've dialed in a surprisingly decent leslie sim within this old 3c, about as close as I can get it (basically knowing how my leslies sound).

Anyway, fearing the sim on stage and 'oof, let's just get through this leslie sim show' I found myself seriously digging it all and how well the sim 'sim'd'. The translation was great, the tweaking worthwhile. The 122 bests it but this was still  enjoyable. Didn't get in the way iow.

 

In case it might help some hunting the same I thought I'd list some things, because if this older 3c/VASE is doing this I know most of you can get things even closer with your newer clones.

 

- Of course, setup your organ only/direct organ output to match (best possible) with the orig/vintage output. Do this via headphones as well as via your amp of choice. The 3c has rather limited but functional TW sets but editing by ear the drive, the c/v, the perc vol/decay, and EQ to match my rigs (just organ direct output) as best possible it then  better sets up the leslie sim editing success (made even easier for owners of the latest and greatest).

 

- setup your leslie sim as close as possible to orig/vintage leslie  operation. For some perhaps that means taking the clone offsite to a studio/other with a working vintage setup.

Ramp up/down times differ between upper and lower on the orig so do the same with your internal (not just by  numbered increment but by ear. You want to hear the difference, don't be swayed by the data onscreen). The slow/fast speeds are also crucial (again best matched by ear against the vintage). The mic angle, mic distance, all of it set.

 

- Live, come stereo in and out (mixer or stereo capable amp) from your clone. In this case the stereo in from 3c and stereo direct out of this kxd. Explain to house sound it has to be stereo out.

 

If it just simply has a terrible leslie sim you may not have a choice  but think about working on and using the internal rather than heading to one or more pedals to achieve things. Give the internal sim a fair shake before dropping $5-600 on 'more gear'. There's just too many items to balance to get in the way otherwise (imho, most of the leslie  pedals sound best on vintage organs rather than the clones).

 

 

[ProfD]

Every sound, feature and functionality in today's gear is a convenience in order get on with the business of playing music.

 

Real or perceived weaknesses and limitations in gear provide an opportunity to explore one's creativity. 

 

Instead of throwing money at a solution i.e. upgrading gear or buying another accessory the cheaper *fix* would be using imagination with existing gear. 

 

A sim is good enough to get through any situation especially when it is not compared to and/or viewed through the prism of the real thing.😎

[Joe P]

1 hour ago, JoJoB3 said:

.......(imho, most of the leslie  pedals sound best on vintage organs rather than the clones).

 

 

Indeed, my M3 sounds fantastic through my MiniVent.  It's ironic because of the two, the Leslie would be easier to gig! 🙂

[Mididude]

3 hours ago, JoJoB3 said:

Likely a 'duh' to some here but perhaps of help to others.

 

Ok so had a last min gig with some fun humans  which didn't call for nor was very conducive to bringing the real/vintage rig. I decided to bring the XK3c single and put a VR09 above, held off on the 122 at last minute and loaded a KXD15.

 

Overtime in home studio I've dialed in a surprisingly decent leslie sim within this old 3c, about as close as I can get it (basically knowing how my leslies sound).

Anyway, fearing the sim on stage and 'oof, let's just get through this leslie sim show' I found myself seriously digging it all and how well the sim 'sim'd'. The translation was great, the tweaking worthwhile. The 122 bests it but this was still  enjoyable. Didn't get in the way iow.

 

In case it might help some hunting the same I thought I'd list some things, because if this older 3c/VASE is doing this I know most of you can get things even closer with your newer clones.

 

- Of course, setup your organ only/direct organ output to match (best possible) with the orig/vintage output. Do this via headphones as well as via your amp of choice. The 3c has rather limited but functional TW sets but editing by ear the drive, the c/v, the perc vol/decay, and EQ to match my rigs (just organ direct output) as best possible it then  better sets up the leslie sim editing success (made even easier for owners of the latest and greatest).

 

- setup your leslie sim as close as possible to orig/vintage leslie  operation. For some perhaps that means taking the clone offsite to a studio/other with a working vintage setup.

Ramp up/down times differ between upper and lower on the orig so do the same with your internal (not just by  numbered increment but by ear. You want to hear the difference, don't be swayed by the data onscreen). The slow/fast speeds are also crucial (again best matched by ear against the vintage). The mic angle, mic distance, all of it set.

 

- Live, come stereo in and out (mixer or stereo capable amp) from your clone. In this case the stereo in from 3c and stereo direct out of this kxd. Explain to house sound it has to be stereo out.

 

If it just simply has a terrible leslie sim you may not have a choice  but think about working on and using the internal rather than heading 5o one or more pedals to achieve things. Give the internal sim a fair shake before dropping $5-600 on 'more gear'. There's just too many items to balance to get in the way otherwise (imho, most of the leslie  pedals sound best on vintage organs rather than the clones).

 

 

I own an XK3c too.  No lower manual though (not sad about that, I have limited space anyway).  One thing I just discovered after having this board for years and years is if you go into the vibrato chorus menu and turn the values for C1, C2, and C3 down to zero but still push the button down that engages the vibrato/chorus...according to my ears something happens....it just sounds better than were you not to push it and have just the Leslie sim. turned on.  I never have liked the vibrato/chorus dsp effect on the XK3c.  The C3 is ...ok to me if I have the Leslie on 'brake' position.  Oh, I also think I turned the 'treble emphasis' (or whatever its called) all the way down in the vibrato/chorus menu.   

[Delaware Dave]

It's horrible.  I had an xm2 which has the  same algorithm as the xk3c.  I had to part with it as it drove me nuts.

[Stokely]

Most of our PAs that we don't bring are mono.  In fact, every one has been for years.  I definitely ask each time.   I can monitor stereo while sending mono to FOH if I want, but I prefer to have them be the same so I can hear any patches that pop out/under in mono.     (This despite efforts to try to make them work in both mono and stereo, it's frustrating.)

We are small fry so maybe that is why.  No festival size gigs for us.  We do have the occasional city street party corporate thing etc.

Happily, most if not all leslies I've used are fine in mono.  Pianos, not so much.  Some synths are problematic.

 

It wouldn't hurt me to listen to what chorus actually should sound like  Never used it much on clones, and haven't played a real organ in decades.  It seems a bit....much...on my Nord Stage 3 but that might just be my mistaken expectation for a more subtle effect.

[Delaware Dave]

8 hours ago, Stokely said:

It wouldn't hurt me to listen to what chorus actually should sound like  Never used it much on clones, and haven't played a real organ in decades.  It seems a bit....much...on my Nord Stage 3 but that might just be my mistaken expectation for a more subtle effect.

 

Hammond chorus comes in three levels, C1, C2, C3.  C1 is light chorus, C2 is NORMAL chorus, and C3 is deep (heavy) chorus.  It often amazes me that people always turn on C3 then think it is over the top. Although I agree that clones often dont get this feature right (accurate) and in fact most clones are over the top, no one ever considers just backing off that depth by reducing the setting to C2 or even C1. On clones I usually start on C2 and adjust from there.  One of the reasons I use VB3-ii (Mojo) is  because I find the C/V to be the most accurate of the clones.  Guido has gotten that right quite a while ago and has made very little adjustments the C/V in a long time because it was accurate right from the get go.  Hammond XK5 also finally got it right, Mag still tweaking theirs although the latest is pretty good. Viscount still not right after many attempts. Hammond pre-XK5 was highly adjustable but not right even after adjustments. The best advice here is to back off to C2 or C1 so that it is not over exposed.

[mrk7421]

I highly disagree with the above post that Viscount CV is not right.Going back to 2011 ....I was with Joey D and Dr  Lonnie when the Numa 1 first came out. Dr  Lonnie's first comment after testing the NUMA was ...."they got the chorus right !" .                                                                                                                                                    I have both Viscount and Mojo....I like both of them and of the two I prefer the Viscount sim because... it affects the percussion less than all other sims.The Viscount seems to take the simplest approach.The thing that Mojo really nails is overdrive though. 

[Delaware Dave]

13 hours ago, mrk7421 said:

I highly disagree with the above post that Viscount CV is not right.Going back to 2011 ....I was with Joey D and Dr  Lonnie when the Numa 1 first came out. Dr  Lonnie's first comment after testing the NUMA was ...."they got the chorus right !" .                                                                                                                                                    I have both Viscount and Mojo....I like both of them and of the two I prefer the Viscount sim because... it affects the percussion less than all other sims.The Viscount seems to take the simplest approach.The thing that Mojo really nails is overdrive though. 

 

I agree to disagree.

[Mitch Towne]

17 hours ago, Delaware Dave said:

 

Hammond chorus comes in three levels, C1, C2, C3.  C1 is light chorus, C2 is NORMAL chorus, and C3 is deep (heavy) chorus.  It often amazes me that people always turn on C3 then think it is over the top. Although I agree that clones often dont get this feature right (accurate) and in fact most clones are over the top, no one ever considers just backing off that depth by reducing the setting to C2 or even C1. On clones I usually start on C2 and adjust from there.  One of the reasons I use VB3-ii (Mojo) is  because I find the C/V to be the most accurate of the clones.  Guido has gotten that right quite a while ago and has made very little adjustments the C/V in a long time because it was accurate right from the get go.  Hammond XK5 also finally got it right, Mag still tweaking theirs although the latest is pretty good. Viscount still not right after many attempts. Hammond pre-XK5 was highly adjustable but not right even after adjustments. The best advice here is to back off to C2 or C1 so that it is not over exposed.

Guido’s C3 chorus was dead on from the start. One of the reasons I stuck with the Mojo for so long. 

[CEB]

I thought VB3 sounded great from the very beginning but that is just me.  

[Baldwin Funster]

2 hours ago, CEB said:

I thought VB3 sounded great from the very beginning but that is just me.  

I used vb3 for years and then more years. The only complaint I have with vb3 is the distortion is very hard to get just right. It seems to be gainstaged in a weird spot that crackles a little bit if you want that slight grit. If B3x wasn't so fantastic and if the first vb3 was on iOS, I might still be using it. And no, vb3.2 and vb3m aren't better. Vb3.2 has a weird synthy sound I have trouble dialing out. And vb3m is good but non tweakable.

[CEB]

The old VB3 is the only organ vst I ever messed with.  I would probably be playing a Mojo today except I have always had great luck with Hammond hardware and if I ever had any problems I would just get in the car and take it to Addison.   I’m probably just a homer when it comes to brand loyalty.  

[SamuelBLupowitz]

This thread is reminding me that I need to take some time to tweak the Leslie sim on my Mojo, now that I'm gigging with the sim a lot more often ... I bet if I even just tweak the speed and rampup/down times to match my 147 a bit better, it'll sound a little more natural onstage to me.

[Delaware Dave]

34 minutes ago, SamuelBLupowitz said:

This thread is reminding me that I need to take some time to tweak the Leslie sim on my Mojo, now that I'm gigging with the sim a lot more often ... I bet if I even just tweak the speed and rampup/down times to match my 147 a bit better, it'll sound a little more natural onstage to me.

 

I still have my Vent and BURN but 95% of the time i use the internal leslie on the Gemini (Mojo in a rack).  The other 5% is the BURN. I only use the Vent with the Voce V5+ organ module which are tight spaced or quick on/off the stage gigs.  Mojo internal sim works for me....

 

BTW, all my leslie sims are matched in speed and ramp times to my 122.  That removes two variables when comparing my sims to the real deal.

[John Tweed]

17 hours ago, Delaware Dave said:

 

BTW, all my leslie sims are matched in speed and ramp times to my 122.  That removes two variables when comparing my sims to the real deal.

I ‘ve attempted to match my various clones with my 251. The fast speed on the 251 is still marginally too fast for me. I love the Leslie sound on this Medeski Martin & Wood track which is possibly not a 147 or 122 but another model of Leslie. Maybe the experts here could weigh in.
 

https://youtu.be/kfYBk1EPbDI?si=064h1j_XqYg-zibV

 

Probably not a sound I’d use all night, but the Vent gives easy access to the speed and can go slow. I don’t use the Vent much these days due to being quite happy with the overall sound I get from Legend Live and the advantage of keeping things simple.

 

[John Tweed]

Organ starts at 1:50. I think it could be a single rotor?

[JoJoB3]

1 hour ago, John Tweed said:

I ‘ve attempted to match my various clones with my 251. The fast speed on the 251 is still marginally too fast for me. I love the Leslie sound on this Medeski Martin & Wood track which is possibly not a 147 or 122 but another model of Leslie. Maybe the experts here could weigh in.
 

https://youtu.be/kfYBk1EPbDI?si=064h1j_XqYg-zibV

 

Probably not a sound I’d use all night, but the Vent gives easy access to the speed and can go slow. I don’t use the Vent much these days due to being quite happy with the overall sound I get from Legend Live and the advantage of keeping things simple.

 

That's a great cut.  I think it was just an old 21H with a worn rope (upper belt). That or motors need some love.

[jpgxk3]

22 hours ago, SamuelBLupowitz said:

This thread is reminding me that I need to take some time to tweak the Leslie sim on my Mojo, now that I'm gigging with the sim a lot more often ... I bet if I even just tweak the speed and rampup/down times to match my 147 a bit better, it'll sound a little more natural onstage to me.

Try setting the EQ knob on the Mojo all the way down, bass and treble at @1:00. Should tame the honk in the sim. YMMV. 

[KRK]

 

€14,99... that's all 🤣
(still one of the best clone & leslie simulation)

[To B3]

On 3/12/2024 at 10:00 AM, KRK said:

 

€14,99... that's all 🤣
(still one of the best clone & leslie simulation)

Love the Vb3m, although I still dont use it live (still a hardware guy, but i´m trying to change). What are you using as conections, both as audio and midi? 

[KRK]

On 3/14/2024 at 8:25 PM, To B3 said:

Love the Vb3m, although I still dont use it live (still a hardware guy, but i´m trying to change). What are you using as conections, both as audio and midi? 

ciao, sorry for the late reply!
(I'm not able to receive notifications here!!!!!!)

 

connection for this setup:

- USB midi from controller directly to smartphone (using a OTC adapter for my 7 years old Samsung smartphone 🤣)

- audio direct from smartphone to mixer (using the stero headphones output minijack - and two mono jacks to the other side of the cable -) 

 

🍻

[mrk7421]

Two things drive me nuts about Leslie Sims one is that the bass is less well defined...the other is that having Leslie sim on percussion sounds distinctively different than a real Leslie. Most of the time I use chorus vibrato....no sim. For me both Mojo and Key B sound good. I am going up to McIntosh Audio today to hear latest and greatest HX3.5 ......hoping to hear good CV from the German.....or to find out why or why not I haven't been able to get that 

[AnotherScott]

17 minutes ago, mrk7421 said:

Two things drive me nuts about Leslie Sims one is that the bass is less well defined...the other is that having Leslie sim on percussion sounds distinctively different than a real Leslie. 

 

I think bass response overall is something that can differ from one Leslie sim to another, as opposed to being a characteristic of all sims. But "definition" is harder to, well, define. 😉

 

As for percussion in particular sounding "wrong" through a sim, to me, that would more likely indicate a flaw in the implementation of the percussion than a flaw in the Leslie sim, since the sim should treat all input the same way (as a real Leslie does). Though I suppose a given sim might not handle transients as well. Either way, I think this would be something that could vary from one sim (or percussion implementation) to another, rather than being an inherent characteristic of all of them.

[Delaware Dave]

5 hours ago, mrk7421 said:

I am going up to McIntosh Audio today to hear latest and greatest HX3.5

 

The latest and greatest is HX3.6

[mrk7421]

It is not a flaw in percussion....Sorry. If I had my way I would not have percussion be part of the spin. To my ear  all sims I have heard just give an approximation what an actual Leslie would sound like.....it just nesses with the tone too much for me personally. I don't see where some kind of implementation could help it.                                                                                                 ...                                                                                                                .

[AnotherScott]

1 hour ago, mrk7421 said:

If I had my way I would not have percussion be part of the spin.

 

While that could be interesting and may get you closer to a sound you prefer, it would be less authentic in terms of reproducing the effect, since of course a real Leslie spins the percussion along with everything else.

 

1 hour ago, mrk7421 said:

To my ear  all sims I have heard just give an approximation what an actual Leslie would sound like.....it just nesses with the tone too much for me personally. 

 

An interesting feature of the Vent (at least the model I have) is that it has two modes, one that is designed to simulate the spin as well as the colorations of the Leslie speaker/cabinet, while the other is designed to emulate just the spin (without those other colorations). Maybe you'd prefer the mode that doesn't intentionally make so much change to the tone. A variable here is whatever coloration your own speaker may provide... and in fact, the mode without speaker/cabinet tone emulation is its "guitar" mode, desirable for guitarists who often count on their amp/speaker to be part of the tone creation and non-flat by design, as opposed to the more neutral amplification that most keyboardists prefer (e.g. for piano). It might not sound good (or at least be more unpredictable) to put a tone-colored effect through a tone-colored amp.

[obxa]

On 3/11/2024 at 10:35 AM, SamuelBLupowitz said:

This thread is reminding me that I need to take some time to tweak the Leslie sim on my Mojo

Definitely worth the time.    I just did a deep dive on both Leslie and other parameters for some upcoming gigs.  Was initially happy with Classic out of the box, but much happier now.  Now using a couple of Mitch's organ models.  I also found using some of the brighter A100's that I'm most used to, allowed me to be subtractive and  just back off the treble on the gig as needed;  rather than trying to jack up something that was too dull. 

 

   Was going to experiment adding my Vent mini,  but just a few tweaks on the internal sim really made a difference.  E.G. the Leslie mic distance always felt a bit off to me. I prefer no room with the mic sounding like it's inches away -  and add verb as desired on the gig.  Adding just a minuscule of belt noise also  got it close to what i'm used to. 

Just picked up a 145, and was also thinking of pulling my old MotionSound Pro3T out of mothballs.  If stage space and schelp tolerance  will allow, I feel like those would be more significant than the extra 5-8% the Vent adds.

 

 

[mrk7421]

I would like to try a Vent without cabinet simulation  yes. I don't hold out much hope that what ever kind of coloration that might be added would somehow equal a cabinet.Quite honestly one of my favorite sounds for Hammond is Pr 40 tone cabinet . I am about ready to take a 45 size cabinet out instead of mess with editing Sims which drive me nuts! This summer I need to put together a Leslie ...I have a Quest van so that shouldn't be too hard.....

 

[NewImprov]

I went through a similar process recently when my OG Ventilator died, I ran my Mojo side-by-side with my A100/Leslie 21h, and tweaked the internal sim until it was as close as I could get, to my ears at least. The Mojo sounded great on its own, but when I used it in rehearsal with the band later, I noticed a pulsing/motor-boating quality that I didn’t like, that I fixed by changing the mic proximity setting in the Mojo. I think it sounds pretty good now, but I still can’t get quite the same drive quality from the Mojo that I could from the Vent. Think I’ll be saving my $$ for a bit to pick up a new Vent.