Is it me or is Camelot confusing?

[TomKittel]

Today I installed the Camelot demo version for windows. Just wanted to check it out to maybe later get the iPad version for my live rig. But after fiddling around for more than two hours it seems too confusing for my old brain. I got completely lost between songs, scenes, layers, audio output, midi input and so on... for example I didn't find any possibility to see the GUIs of my VST instruments. After this waste of time the marketing on their website sounds mockery to my ears "Camelot is designed to be intuitive and explored like many other consumer apps."

 

On the other hand I seem to recall that some of you guys are sucessfully using Camelot. So here's the bitter question: am I too stupid? Or should I simply invest a couple of more hours to uncover the Camelot "intuity?" 

[AnotherScott]

It is not nearly as straight-forward as the marketing would have you believe, and the needed documentation is not easy to find. But in case you haven't found it, there's a 12-part tutorial at https://kb.audiomodeling.com/en/camelot/c/how-to/d/the-basics-of-camelot-an-overview

 

[ABECK]

There is definitely a learning curve.  I too assumed It would be intuitive enough to just figure out on my own (using iPad version).  I got lost quickly.  I will say, I emailed support with my setup and what I was trying to achieve and they responded with a detailed email containing marked up pics and directions.  I was amazed - great support.  (FYI - once I learned how to use MIDI Thru connectors and advanced channel routing on my layers, things started to make sense)

 

Edit:  To answer your question about accessing the GUI for your instruments - this is absolutely doable on the iPad version, so I assume it is possible on the PC version.  

[JamPro]

You can bet the Camelot people have made some tutorial videos for new users.  Search for ones that say "getting started with...." or "up and running with...."

 

I've never used it.  A quick look at the website suggests this is a very complex bit of software: setlist manager, digital mixer, VST instrument host, score reader, and midi router all rolled into one.  I suggest you can expect to take some time learning to use it.

[CHarrell]

I appreciate that they have a free version that can act as a perpetual demo, instead of the competition with timed trials, but I too have been confused by how they do things, to the point where I'd rather pay for another option. Of the VST hosts I've tried, so far Gig Performer is my favorite.

[drawback]

I’ve tried Camelot a few times and could never get used to the box interface, and how they organize things. I prefer the “channel strip” approach such as with AUM and MainStage. 
 

My brother has been looking for a host to run a fairly complex show, and tried Camelot, MainStage and Gig Performer. None of them worked for him. He’s a Cubase power user and out of the blue got a marketing email from Steinberg promoting their VSTLive. It’s so much like Cubase that he is finding VSTLive to be his solution for loading multi instruments, light, charts, everything.

[hrestov]

I use Camelot, because it’s quite the only one for iPad (there is also keystage that I don’t have). It’s quite simple if you know what you do. I already have esperience with other vst host for computer, cantabile and Forte. So I already knew how a vst host work. 
 

to open a plug-in, in iPad, just double click on it. 
 

In any case, there are much tutorial in YouTube in “audio modelling” page. 
 

Camelot is quite simple, but do so much things that is impossibile to be very very simple. 

[Ibarch]

54 minutes ago, drawback said:

I’ve tried Camelot a few times and could never get used to the box interface, and how they organize things. I prefer the “channel strip” approach such as with AUM and MainStage. 
 

My brother has been looking for a host to run a fairly complex show, and tried Camelot, MainStage and Gig Performer. None of them worked for him. He’s a Cubase power user and out of the blue got a marketing email from Steinberg promoting their VSTLive. It’s so much like Cubase that he is finding VSTLive to be his solution for loading multi instruments, light, charts, everything.

 

Another vote for VST Live. I found it fairly intuitive and quick to learn. It is a lot cheaper than the likes of Gig Performer and Camalot and worth a look. It makes a good VST host for live use. 

 

The software is a little rough around the edges but is still quite new and under active development. The dev team are very responsive on their forums and have even delivered on feature requests for me. 

 

Not sure there is an iPad version but it is available for Windows and MacOS. 

[JoJoB3]

Cantabile is pretty nifty.

https://www.cantabilesoftware.com/

[yannis D]

I use it for Ipad and it works flawlessly. I had some minor issues in the beggining but Camelot people are very fast and friendly to help me on line or through their Facebook page. Camelot, just like any other DAW, has its own logic and it's pretty simple when you get it, but you have to invest some tine to do so...

I am an old Mainstage user on my Macs, but as long as Mainstage is not there for ipads, Camelot will be my choice and, so far, it works without any issues live.

 

[hrestov]

But he wants an app for ipad, not computer. And for ipad there are only two Vst host: Camelot pro and Keystage. Aum is a different thing, it's a mixer, and isn't optimized for live use. 
The "simplicity" that Camelot guys are referrring I think is for the hardware management, that you can recall the preset in your keyboard not with bank/prog change, but using the name of preset that you have in your keyboard. That make thing easier.
For Auv3 management is quite similar to other vst host, but each vst host has their own methods.

Scene rack, Song rack and Setlist rack are fondamental to optimize the use of Auv3, they permit you to have seamless transition between sounds, and to don't load auv3 that you are not using in that song.

I use Camelot in 4-5 bands. One stage piano (Yamaha Cp73), mainly for acoustic and electric pianos, plus often a master keyboard, and auv3 for other sounds (hammond, bass, brass, strings, synth of all type, orchestral, loop, sample). Camelot manage them in a good way. And very stable. Also manage sheet and chords, and backing tracks. I think there is only one fault to be perfect: you can't assign the exposed parameters of auv3 to midi controller, so if the auv3 don't have a midi implementation of its own you can't move its a parameter with a phisical controller. By the way, most instrument app have a midi implementation (but effects not too much), so there isn't a problem. 

I don't know if Keystage is better or not, I haven't tried it.

 

[mobi]

I started with Camelot on iPad, then got the desktop version, and now remote control my MB Pro with Camelot from my iPad running Camelot as master (charts, backing tracks, prg chg, midi remapping, layers, zones, etc.)

 

Very convenient and flexible if you use mixed hardware and software setups, besides multiplatform  (PC, Mac, iOS)

 

 

[Synthaholic]

I found Camelot very confusing, and quickly abandoned it, but not because of it's complexity. I was under the false assumption that it would also play back my MIDI sequences, and I could use the program to quickly, visually, and easily create Program combinations and splits for each song. I'm still kinda looking for an app that does that.

[GuitarMage]

For what is worth, Gig Performer has a MIDI File Player that you can use for various use cases, ranging from playing MIDI files, automating patch changes through MIDI files, routing instruments to high quality VSTs, etc. There is also a feature to record all generated MIDI data in the Gig Performer Recorder. 

 

Creating splits is also straightforward; you can not only set each split to be one block, and you visually connect that block using virtual wires, but also do some other stuff such as isolating bass notes, MIDI merge, separating your sustain pedal, completely inverting the keyboard, visual routing the MIDI flow to different places (say, external hardware devices) and much more.  

[Synthaholic]

On 3/5/2024 at 3:42 AM, GuitarMage said:

For what is worth, Gig Performer has a MIDI File Player that you can use for various use cases, ranging from playing MIDI files, automating patch changes through MIDI files, routing instruments to high quality VSTs, etc. There is also a feature to record all generated MIDI data in the Gig Performer Recorder. 

 

Creating splits is also straightforward; you can not only set each split to be one block, and you visually connect that block using virtual wires, but also do some other stuff such as isolating bass notes, MIDI merge, separating your sustain pedal, completely inverting the keyboard, visual routing the MIDI flow to different places (say, external hardware devices) and much more.  

But that's not available for iPad, AFAIK.

[yannis D]

BTW I am still trying to assign my Nord Electro's 5 volume pedal (Roland EX5) to Camelot and I can't find my way around... Anyone knows the step-by-step procedure?

[AnotherScott]

On 2/29/2024 at 2:50 AM, hrestov said:

But he wants an app for ipad, not computer. And for ipad there are only two Vst host: Camelot pro and Keystage. Aum is a different thing, it's a mixer, and isn't optimized for live use. 

 

That's an interesting distinction, since so many conversations/threads here have seemed to lump the three together. I've used Camelot Pro and Keystage a bit, neither is simple, but I got farther with both of them than I ever got with AUM (and I've talked about my issues with AUM elsewhere). But what recently brought this back to mind was an app called MIDI Layers which is essentially an add-on for AUM. From the description:
 

Quote

 

Have you ever wanted to play multiple instruments from a single master keyboard during a live performance? Would you like to be able to set up keyboard splits, crossfade layers or create an ensemble of layered instruments? If you answered yes to either of those questions, then MIDI Layers may be your solution.

 

 

(much more detail at the link)

 

I posted it here for two reasons: One is that this app's very existence would seem to support the premise that AUM is not as well-suited for live use as those other two (where setting up splits/layers to play from a single keyboard is already well supported); and two, to the extent that AUM is not as optimized for live use as those others, maybe this is the way to optimize it. So AUM+MIDI Layers may be a viable and more suitable alternative to Camelot Pro and Keystage than is AUM alone, and might even change which of these paths one would take.

[TomKittel]

FWIW I finally returned Camelot and got a refund from the app store. Too complicated for my limited programming skills. I might give AUM + Midi Layers a try. 

[D. Gauss]

2 hours ago, TomKittel said:

FWIW I finally returned Camelot and got a refund from the app store. Too complicated for my limited programming skills. I might give AUM + Midi Layers a try. 

 

That's a shame. I find Camelot really nice once you figure out how they do things. Took me a coupla youtube vids though, and then i was good.  fwiw, i can't imagine that setting AUM + Midi layers is going to be less complicated.

[Reezekeys]

22 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

Quote

 

Have you ever wanted to play multiple instruments from a single master keyboard during a live performance? Would you like to be able to set up keyboard splits, crossfade layers or create an ensemble of layered instruments? If you answered yes to either of those questions, then MIDI Layers may be your solution.

 

 

(much more detail at the link)

 

I posted it here for two reasons: One is that this app's very existence would seem to support the premise that AUM is not as well-suited for live use as those other two (where setting up splits/layers to play from a single keyboard is already well supported); and two, to the extent that AUM is not as optimized for live use as those others, maybe this is the way to optimize it. So AUM+MIDI Layers may be a viable and more suitable alternative to Camelot Pro and Keystage than is AUM alone, and might even change which of these paths one would take.

 

Peoples' definition of "well supported" might vary, but as concerns AUM - each channel strip (which is where you'd load an AUv3 or IAA instrument) is easily editable as to what midi channel to respond to, control change #s to ignore or pass, also key range and transposition, and finally which midi messages to pass or ignore. One example here, my piano (where I didn't need to restrict any of those parameters except the midi receive channel):

 

[AnotherScott]

1 hour ago, Reezekeys said:

as concerns AUM - each channel strip (which is where you'd load an AUv3 or IAA instrument) is easily editable as to what midi channel to respond to, control change #s to ignore or pass, also key range and transposition, and finally which midi messages to pass or ignore. 

 

Interesting, thanks. So then, as an AUM user,  looking at the full full MIDI Layers description and screen shots here, do you see where this would add value, or do you think you could really accomplish these things just as well without it?

 

 

Similarly, I wonder if this app could have value even to a Camelot Pro or Keystage user. I messaged that question to the MIDI Layers developer on facebook, but he said he wasn't sufficiently familiar with those apps to answer.

[Reezekeys]

From what I can tell by looking at those screenshots and reading the descriptions of features, MIDI Layers appears to be quite similar to Midiflow in most functions, though it seems to accomplish them in a different way. Midiflow has midi "channel strips" where incoming midi is altered by a multitude of filtering and remapping options. From my quick look, it seems like each app has a few features the other lacks. I'm sure I would have been able to do what I need with MIDI Layers but for whatever reason, I found Midiflow first. At this point I would probably advise anyone needing these features to go with MIDI Layers for a simple reason: the dev for Midiflow is MIA. The app was last updated three years ago. The dev's support forum is locked and the most recent message appears to be from August 2021. I googled the dev's name and only came up with one old tweet. Despite this, Midiflow has been rock-solid on my setup, so for now I'm staying with it. If and when it breaks, MIDI Layers may be an option.

 

I think these midi routing apps are useful for AUM, and maybe for Camelot Pro or Keystage users, because in my case I can load everything I need for the gig in AUM at the beginning of the gig. I don't want to change AUM "scenes" (their term) in the middle of a set, where AUv3 plugs are unloaded and different ones are loaded in - that takes a little time and might affect stability. Midiflow presets change instantly; by using those presets to rechannelize and direct a midi source to different AUM midi inputs, I can route midi to any destination in AUM with a program change from my keyboard. It's worked great for me, so far at least.