The Economics of Rock's Downfall

[AROIOS]

For those of us who aren't oblivious to the decline of popular music (not to be conflated with the business/industry), what they discussed about certainly isn't limited to just Rock.
 

[Ivan May]

The music industry turned to poo after Elvis died in 1977. There, I said it!

[ProfD]

11 minutes ago, Ivan May said:

The music industry turned to poo after Elvis died in 1977. There, I said it!

I remember turning on the TV that day and first thing I heard was The King is dead. 

 

The music industry made a sh8t ton of money from the time MTV launched in 1981 until Napster, er, digital downloads killed CDs.😁😎

[Greg Mein]

Welcome back to vaudeville, you play instruments because that's what you do.

[Mitch Towne]

2 hours ago, Ivan May said:

The music industry turned to poo after Elvis died in 1977. There, I said it!

Such language! Kids read this forum, you know!

[Docbop]

Music industry was dying way before Elvis kicked the bucket, it was  the Beatles that relit the fire in the music business and that was before Elvis died in 1977. Late 80's music biz was starting to slump until Hip Hop reignited in the 90's.   Music biz is a roller coast always has been their are slumps until the next "new thing" starts things climbing again.   

 

 

 

 

[Baldwin Funster]

8 hours ago, Ivan May said:

The music industry turned to poo after Elvis died in 1977. There, I said it!

You mean Hank Williams. 

[Tusker]

Since time immemorial music was composed by the powerless and controlled by the powerful. The troubadour plays at the pleasure of the king. 

 

Occasionally the structures invert and we experience a twelfth night when a musician might be called king. Occasionally.

[AROIOS]

On 2/10/2024 at 7:00 PM, Ivan May said:

The music industry turned to poo after Elvis died in 1977. There, I said it!

I blame it on Max Martin and the Backstreet Boys. 😃

[KuruPrionz]

22 hours ago, Greg Mein said:

Welcome back to vaudeville, you play instruments because that's what you do.

Lots of great local music up here in Bellingham. That's what I listen to, and play. 

Smaller venues, tip the band, buy a beverage and enjoy the music. I've seen CDs on sale at thrift stores for as low as fifty cents. 

This level of music seems to be doing pretty well, of course some better than others - same as it always was. 

 

Long ago and far away, I saw Deep Purple, Fleetwood Mac and Rory Gallagher for $7.50 at Selland Arena in Fresno. In Minneapolis my brother and I saw The Who on the Tommy tour for $3.50 each. Those days are gone, people don't have hundreds of dollars to spend on concert tickets. 

[Docbop]

38 minutes ago, KuruPrionz said:

Long ago and far away, I saw Deep Purple, Fleetwood Mac and Rory Gallagher for $7.50 at Selland Arena in Fresno. In Minneapolis my brother and I saw The Who on the Tommy tour for $3.50 each. Those days are gone, people don't have hundreds of dollars to spend on concert tickets. 

 

I blame the audiences.   When I was young we went to concert to HEAR the bands, the bands showed up in jeans and shirts, the gear just stacked on the stage, and the house lighting was usually all there was. We only cared that the PA was good so we could hear the vocals.    Then bands started getting a bit fancier and so props and special lighting and the audience started wanting more.  Next thing you know touring was getting so expensive because of the staging, lighting, special effects, dancers and so on and tickets started getting priced crazy.  Now the audience doesn't want to hear the band live, they want the record with meat puppets on stage and giant show, and playback engineers triggering backing tracks tied to MIDI lights and audio.   And people wonder why ticket priced are astronomical.   

 

Then people pay those stupid prices to sit/stand in a sea of people holding up cellphone videoing the show.  Then they only play the video to coworkers to prove they were there otherwise that video will never actually be watched it will just take up space on his phone.  Whole lotta money for phony show. 

[KuruPrionz]

3 minutes ago, Docbop said:

 

I blame the audiences.   When I was young we went to concert to HEAR the bands, the bands showed up in jeans and shirts, the gear just stacked on the stage, and the house lighting was usually all there was. We only cared that the PA was good so we could hear the vocals.    Then bands started getting a bit fancier and so props and special lighting and the audience started wanting more.  Next thing you know touring was getting so expensive because of the staging, lighting, special effects, dancers and so on and tickets started getting priced crazy.  Now the audience doesn't want to hear the band live, they want the record with meat puppets on stage and giant show, and playback engineers triggering backing tracks tied to MIDI lights and audio.   And people wonder why ticket priced are astronomical.   

 

Then people pay those stupid prices to sit/stand in a sea of people holding up cellphone videoing the show.  Then they only play the video to coworkers to prove they were there otherwise that video will never actually be watched it will just take up space on his phone.  Whole lotta money for phony show. 

Which is why I go listen to local music. Humble surroundings and yes, lots of people having conversations but the club pays the band and I can hang out with friends and enjoy the music. 

[Docbop]

6 minutes ago, KuruPrionz said:

Which is why I go listen to local music. Humble surroundings and yes, lots of people having conversations but the club pays the band and I can hang out with friends and enjoy the music. 

Part of what drew me to Jazz it's about musicians just playing, not putting on a show it just about the music.  

[KuruPrionz]

 

26 minutes ago, Docbop said:

Part of what drew me to Jazz it's about musicians just playing, not putting on a show it just about the music.  

Most of the local bands are players playing.

 

Different styles of music, jazz is certainly one of them. My brother turned me on to jazz a long time ago, Miles, Trane, Monk, Mingus, etc. Fantastic music but it can make our locals sound not quite so good and one can only take so many versions of Fly Me To The Moon. 

Sometimes the jazzers try too hard and certainly the rockers do as well. A pleasant melody over a good set of chord changes is all that is really needed. Less is more.

 

I'm more interested in the story-telling aspect, which can also bring country and folk into the picture. 

[Mark Schmieder]

11 hours ago, Docbop said:

Part of what drew me to Jazz it's about musicians just playing, not putting on a show it just about the music.  

 

You haven't seen me dance at my jazz gigs. 😜

[Bill H.]

Just watched this video. Quick thoughts: I think it's his version of what happened in his ball park - which appears to be Seattle's grunge scene. The bands he mentions are from that scene with the exception of Nickelback - which is just a stone's throw away in Vancouver. 

 

Red Hot Chili Peppers, Green Day, Smash Mouth, Rage Against The Machine, Blink 182, The Killers, etc... they all were hot post Telecommunications Act bands and don't sound anything alike to these ears. And a quick check showed they all had different producers. 

 

Each generation wants its own music, and different than the music of their parents. That's my opinion of what happened to rock - not that it all sounded the same courtesy of big brother. 

[Floyd Tatum]

The economics of (rock) music's downfall....    an interesting topic, for sure.

First thing I have to wonder is: how much money is there in the music industry?   Was there more in, say, the 90's than there is now?   I don't know.

I'm sure corruption was, and no doubt, probably still is a part of the business.

It seems to me that inexorable forces such as the advent of digital (and therefore copy-able) music probably had more effect than corruption.

Big glacier-like forces that no individual can stop, such as the move to streamed music, where each play is worth some miniscule amount like .000000001 cent, or something.

And yet, if someone has a huge hit, they apparently still make money (how much?  I don't know).

And I've heard that Taylor Swift has made more money in music than anyone in history.  Don't know if it's true, but that's what I heard.  So, there is obviously still money to be made.   By someone, somehow.

 

[David Emm]

On 2/10/2024 at 11:44 PM, Mitch Towne said:

Such language! Kids read this forum, you know!

 

Good for them. Better here than just playing a kracked version of FL Studio behind a dumpster. I was almost a kid when I started reading KEYBOARD, so the group is a natural extension. That's where I learned part of the "language!" 🤪

[David Emm]

16 hours ago, KuruPrionz said:

Long ago and far away, I saw Deep Purple, Fleetwood Mac and Rory Gallagher for $7.50 at Selland Arena in Fresno. In Minneapolis my brother and I saw The Who on the Tommy tour for $3.50 each. Those days are gone, people don't have hundreds of dollars to spend on concert tickets. 

 

No sh*t, not to mention the travel & possibly a motel room. I can relate because I paid a whopping $15 to see ELO, Triumvirat and Gryphon in one show. 🤯

 

Their kind barely even exists in concert terms today. Live playing as a group has generally given way to high-tech lip-synching. I don't feel challenged by the music, just worn out by the formatting. 🤨 

[KuruPrionz]

35 minutes ago, Floyd Tatum said:

It seems to me that inexorable forces such as the advent of digital (and therefore copy-able) music probably had more effect than corruption.

I used to copy vinyl records to cassette all the time. There were no CD's, that came much later.

It spared me of the inevitable dust in the grooves sound that records tend to have after a few plays. 

I'm certain I wasn't the only one, copying of recordings has been around a LONG time!!!!

 

[ProfD]

IMO, competing forms of entertainment and technology has altered the music business more than anything else. 

 

Creating music is relatively easy especially among talented people. 

 

The constant remains the same...figuring hot how to sell music has always been the major hurdle.😎

[Jim Alfredson]

The video brings up many salient points. The fallout from the Telecommunications Act of 1996 goes way beyond the music industry. But I can't go in to that due to the rules of this forum. Suffice to say that we are were we are politically here in the US due in large part to that bill.

Music as a commodity is as old as the phonograph, if not older. Before radio and the phonograph, sheet music was big business. The difference between then and now is consolidation. In the 90s it was Clear Channel buying up all the radio stations, firing independent programmers, and homogenizing playlists across markets. It reminds me of the book The Geography of Nowhere, written in 1993 by James Kunstler, which describes how every highway exit in America looks the same. The same fast food, the same gas stations and truck stops, the same coffee places... and that was 30 years ago. It's even worse now. Nexstar and Sinclair Broadcasting own almost 400 stations between them and cover over 68% of households in the US. And that means what gets on the local news is controlled by them. Scary stuff.

Back to music: Pop music, be it actual pop, rock, rap, or country, is so derivative and corporatized as to be inconsequential. There are always exceptions but not as many as before. The good news is that technology allows true democratization of music creation and distribution. The bad news is that technology allows true democratization of music creation and distribution. It can be somewhat hard to find really good stuff, but it's out there and it's REALLY good. A couple of my favorite 'new' bands that you'll never hear on terrestrial radio:

Little Dragon - keyboardist Håkan Wirenstrand is a true wizard and Yukimi Nagano's vocals are incredible

Leprous - keyboardist and lead singer Einar Solberg is insane and their drummer Baard Kolstaad is probably the best rock drummer on the scene right now

Solveig Slettahjell - This woman's voice is unworldly. Check out her rendition of Tom Waits "Take It With Me" on YouTube from 2009

The Lemon Twigs - Fun, power pop throwing back to the Beach Boys, Chick Trick, etc. They've gotten some exposure in recent years but still pretty underground.

I just realized that three of those four are from Scandinavia. Maybe my roots are calling me. (Alfredson is Swedish). 

17 minutes ago, ProfD said:

IMO, competing forms of entertainment and technology has altered the music business more than anything else. 

 

That's definitely a huge part of it, too. There's a lot more stuff to do to fill one's free time than going to see others play music.

[ProfD]

12 minutes ago, Jim Alfredson said:

Music as a commodity is as old as the phonograph, if not older. Before radio and the phonograph, sheet music was big business.

Bingo.  I alluded to this in the AI thread in the other forum room. 

12 minutes ago, Jim Alfredson said:

Back to music: Pop music, be it actual pop, rock, rap, or country, is so derivative and corporatized as to be inconsequential.

It really started in the 1960s but really took off in the  1980s with the advent of MTV and music videos and CD sales.

12 minutes ago, Jim Alfredson said:

There are always exceptions but not as many as before. The good news is that technology allows true democratization of music creation and distribution. The bad news is that technology allows true democratization of music creation and distribution.

Absolutely the blessing and curse.😁

 

As I mentioned, creating music is relatively easy.  Selling it is even harder now with so much competition out there.😎

[BluMunk]

18 minutes ago, Jim Alfredson said:

every highway exit in America looks the same.

Yes. As you say, there are always exceptions (for now), but the accessible and reliable shortening of distances and time that comes with the promise of adding diversity to our experiences, in the long run seems to have a homogenizing effect on culture. 

If everyone is selling a chicken nugget, your new chicken nugget is probably just not as special or valuable as you imagine, even if it's a really good one.

[MathOfInsects]

The phonograph was actually initially deployed as a means of selling sheet music. 

Beato is a talented, intelligent, and creative dude whose worldview can be a bit shall we say "old school." 

For the indie artist, there has never been a better time to be alive. The music industry as a whole is suffering because it's still got its eggs in 1980's basket, and the labels are no longer people's only way to be heard. I am sorry on an individual level that the path to financial success is murkier than in the past, but that's not because of something going wrong, but IMO because the industry at large hasn't caught up with what's going right. 

 

[CyberGene]

How many painters are rich nowadays? Why should music be different?

[stoken6]

41 minutes ago, MathOfInsects said:

The music industry as a whole is suffering because it's still got its eggs in 1980's basket, and the labels are no longer people's only way to be heard.

I would recommend Adam Neely's recent video for an alternative perspective on this subject. He says he's had enough of the endless Youtube merry-go-round, in which the algorithm demands constant content. Instead, he's going "back to the music industry" and concentrating on his band/touring.

 

This is not Adam's best video - it's a bit rambling and unfocused. But it's an thought-provoking message.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[Bill H.]

1 hour ago, Jim Alfredson said:

Back to music: Pop music, be it actual pop, rock, rap, or country, is so derivative and corporatized as to be inconsequential. There are always exceptions but not as many as before.

 

I think there are more exceptions now than before. When you have a teen with Tourette's, a couple of homely guys with significant facial art, a +++ size black chick...

 

They are top pop stars today - picked by their peers. They wouldn't have stood a chance under the old corporate A&R system. 

 

When you have something like Calm Down with minimal production and promotion which simmered in Northern Africa for a months, gradually made it's way into the world through social media, grabbed Selena Gomez by the coattails, and became the #6 single in the US for the year 2023... the chances of anything like that happening under the old system is dramatically less as well. 

[Floyd Tatum]

1 hour ago, MathOfInsects said:

For the indie artist, there has never been a better time to be alive.

How so?    Could you elaborate?

[ProfD]

4 minutes ago, Floyd Tatum said:

How so?    Could you elaborate?

Definitely not speaking for @MathOfInsects here. 

 

Indie artists do not have to wait on a finance company, er, record industry when it comes to producing, recording, mixing or mastering their records. 

 

Indie Artists have access to every aspect of the record-making process.  The internet allows Indie artists to upload their own content. 

 

When it comes to marketing and promoting and booking gigs, Indie artists don't have to rely on corporate gatekeepers for that either. 

 

Most of this was an expensive endeavor that led artists and musicians to take out high interest loans i.e. seek major label record deals.😎