(very) OT: Emotional Support Animals

[Stokely]

I think we've all seen the rise of this phenomenon, and up til now I haven't really cared.  If people want to say they need an animal with them wherever they go for "support", it seems weird but hey whatever floats your boat.

We rent properties and now it's just gotten wacky.  Our nicest house doesn't allow pets; the last person who rented and didn't tell us they got a dog ended up doing major damage when the dog dug up the entire back yard.   Now they moved on and we had three applicants in a row with these support animals.  One person had two German Shepherds--that is a lot of "emotional support".  One person made sure to mention that they were suing another landlord when they tried to stop them from having the dog.  Nice.

I know we landlords get the "evil slumlord" stigma thanks to the movies and shows--and to be fair, I myself had some REALLY crappy nasty ones--but we do right by our properties and our renters.  I've been out there late night to help install a new fridge when our normal handy guy couldn't do it in a pinch for instance.  We put nice appliances in our properties and a big reason is that we don't want them to break often, inconveniencing both the renter and us.  Of course sometimes they trash them so that's the other side of that coin...

So this must be a thing.  If you want a pet and the place says you can't, just say it's an "emotional support animal".   Same with any restaurants that don't allow dogs at the table, or anywhere else.  I've seen dogs taking a dump on the field at the park where my son plays soccer, right by the "no dogs" sign...probably threatened to sue the park to have that "support"!

[o0Ampy0o]

I was at Costco this week and the gatekeeper at the entry door asked someone whether an obviously undisciplined PET dog was a service dog. The person said yes and was allowed in with the dog. I observed another PET inside. So "emotional support" qualifies as a service animal now? I know someone whose kid wanted to bring her horse with her to college. They made the arrangements and the kid is currently attending a university somewhere with her horse.

[Paul Woodward]

Taking this even further, I know of a kid who identifies as a cat. The parents insist the school make the necessary arrangements and staff have to go along with this too. Words fail me, I’m glad I left the classroom last year as this would be the last straw for me.

We have simply let entitlement go too far and no one dare challenge ‘mental health’ for fear of being sued. Sign me up for the first shuttle off this planet…

[Stokely]

Yeah, I think "emotional support" and "service" animals are pretty much interchangeable.  I think now that my wife mentioned the one that offhand mentioned suing his old landlord called it "service".  

There probably are legitimate needs for some people for animals (I've read that they have very positive effects when brought into nursing homes) but as with anything there are people taking advantage of the situation.  

I left 90% of a teaching degree on the table in the mid-90s.   I was in my last semester and interning in a classroom.  The kids were the best part--I knew I wouldn't be able to handle either the parents or the layers of asinine administration.  I have enough beefs with the relatively minor layers of corporate bs I deal with in IT, which is what I switched my career plans to.  Working from home is amazing, I don't have to see or smell most of it.

[CyberGene]

I love animals (even more than people) and I'm a vegetarian for ethical reasons, etc. But I still find it a bit stupid and rude when people bring their dogs at restaurants, etc. Or when, as is your case, they are renters and will bring an animal that can cause damage without letting you know. All that being said, I am a firm believer that animals can bring comfort and emotional support though. I've observed the positive effect our cat has had on our 6-year old daughter. But we live in a world of extremities and polarization, so I don't expect for any understanding on both sides to happen 😕

[Stokely]

As I say, I think that both 1) animals can provide support and 2)people are taking advantage of fear of being sued to just have what they want.   When 3 out of 3 candidates all have service animals, something has changed. 

I have 3 cats and a dog myself.  They are family.   But I personally wouldn't lie and call them "service animals" because that implies I need them to function, the most extreme case being a seeing eye dog.   I would be diminishing the meaning of the word "service".   Stress-wise, I can honestly say that now that two of them are quite old it's kind of a wash   Let's just say we have no more rugs in the house due to, as my friend in a similar situation calls it, "puddles and piles".  That gets old REAL fast.

 

[Lindaru]

I admittedly cannot care for an animal here and there are others who cannot care for one out there also.  Technology has provided us something that we can enjoy that does not need to be walked, does not make messes on the floor, does not need to have veterinary care or need to be fed with real world food.  This is starting to become a thing as I have been reading on the forums for this particular thing.  What is it?

Pet robots.  If the programming is interactive and spontaneous enough, it is great for companionship and emotional support.  Many of the people purchasing these are people with social disorders, mental health issues, anxiety and depression.

These are renter friendly, can be brought into restaurants with you if you wish with no disturbance at all, and can be powered off if you need to leave them alone for a lengthy time unlike animals which have to have a pet sitter or be boarded.

I personally have a number of different ones myself and thoroughly enjoy them.  Lets hope some of the issues with "emotional support" animals can be solved by more people owning these types of companions.

https://living.ai/emo/
 

[Old No7]

3 hours ago, Stokely said:

Yeah, I think "emotional support" and "service" animals are pretty much interchangeable.

 

Not here in Maine -- you can be asked to show documentation for a service dog, and/or any other mutt being passed off as a service dog -- without documentation -- can result in misdemeanor charges being filed.  One can buy "service dog" vests on fleabay even if it's not legit.

 

As for me, my Black Lab provides great emotional support.  And his name (really!) is "Jack Daniels".  And if he's not allowed where I stay, then I bring the other Jack!

 

Old No7

[Tusker]

It looks like laws vary by state. In some states you don’t get to decide. A licensed doctor or psychotherapist does. Others seem more open ended …

 

https://usserviceanimals.org/blog/emotional-support-animal-laws/

[o0Ampy0o]

Candidates for pet service animal names:

"Puddles" and "Piles"

 

Don't recommend "Jack." Shouting commands for the cat to get off the furniture could draw protests from peripheral busy bodies. 

 

 

[Reezekeys]

Get an extra month's security?

[jazzpiano88]

1 minute ago, Reezekeys said:

Get an extra month's security?

 

For when the new applicants ask, "Was this a meth factory"?   

[David Emm]

I'm with Winston Churchill when he said "I don't trust any man who doesn't like dogs." It does you good to appreciate such fundamental positives. That said, get real, Great Danes, vultures and 6-foot-long iguanas aren't comfort animals, they're too much. You're entitled to your choice of pets, but we're entitled not to have your comfort iguana lick our ears and eat our peanuts on an 8-hour flight.

 

Besides, service dogs are calm, focused sweethearts who took a couple of detailed years to train. Leave 'em be, because they're on the job and serving their pack. No comfort octopii in a jar, either, please, thanks.

[Adan]

So you're asking us to side with landlords and against emotional support animals (aka, animals)? That's a tough one  . . .

 

Now if it's keyboard players versus animals, that's a closer call. Keep those emotional support pigeons away from my rig!

 

[ElmerJFudd]

Very common in air travel now. The support pets get fake grass to alleviate themselves before boarding.  But generally these pets tend to be pretty small, Paris Hilton type toy dogs in a purse.  I don’t know what sort of creatures your tenants have been keeping that damage the place.  What do they do?  Claw at the door when the mailman comes around?  Scratch up the finish on the hardwood floors?  Pee the carpet?  
 

I love dogs and just lost my dear old four legged friend of the last 15 years. It’s been lonely, strangely quiet without her.  We’re talking about fostering at some point.  Sooner would be better than later.  
 

That said, if the agreement doesn’t allow pets, then it doesn’t allow pets.  Go find another place that does.  🤷‍♂️ Being a landlord ain’t easy.  That profit margin never seems to be what the math says it should be.  

[Synthaholic]

2 hours ago, Reezekeys said:

Get an extra month's security?

This is what I was going to say. Hefty deposit. Put it in the contract that anything that indicates that a pet has been on the property, even pet hair, will forfeit the deposit. But you would most likely have to be present at the last day's checkout, and it could be an uncomfortable situation when you inform them that you are keeping the deposit.

[bfields]

2 hours ago, ElmerJFudd said:

Very common in air travel now. The support pets get fake grass to alleviate themselves before boarding.  But generally these pets tend to be pretty small

Since rule changes in 2020, I don't believe that any US airline gives emotional support animals any special treatment.  https://www.transportation.gov/briefing-room/us-department-transportation-announces-final-rule-traveling-air-service-animals

 

Yes, you can bring animals as carry on if they're small enough, but that's nothing to do with whether they're claimed as emotional support animals or not.

 

Also, service animals that have training to help a person with a disability *do* still get special treatment, but my understanding is that that's a much harder standard to meet, compared to getting a letter stating your pet is an emotional support animal.

 

(And I expected the same to be true for rental housing, but googling suggests that US landlords may actually be required to make exceptions to no pet policies for emotional support animals?)

[smanzella]

My emotional support animal is a chicken. A four piece. With a biscuit!

[AROIOS]

14 hours ago, Paul Woodward said:

Taking this even further, I know of a kid who identifies as a cat. The parents insist the school make the necessary arrangements and staff have to go along with this too.

 

 

[Paul Woodward]

I worked in Thailand for three years, trust me, I know what it’s like to live in a terrarium….not nice.

At first I thought this was Mike Myers doing a sketch, felt very Monty Python like. Can’t tell if he is actually being serious but, if he is, we are doomed as a species. Self entitlement is destroying common sense and resilience. At what point in their life do kids have to accept their support horse won’t fit on a plane, or that it’s not really ok to dump in a litter box in the kitchen while mom is cooking dinner. Why pander to these requests in the first place?

As professionals (teacher in my case) where can we draw the line? I wouldn’t have a pet in a workshop for safety and they can’t use tools or machines as they have no digits. To what extent can we accommodate what is clearly a human being as an animal? They wouldn’t even be at school, just laying on the sofa having their belly rubbed…and there’s a child protection issue right there.

[MathOfInsects]

No one actually believes the litter box thing, right??

I'm bi-partisan on this one. I completely agree that people have abused the "emotional support animal" thing to the point of absurdity, and also I'm really sorry I didn't get one of those licenses before they cracked down because I hate leaving my dog when I travel or work or go outside to get the mail or leave the room or move from one side of the couch to the other. 

[Paul Woodward]

I have not seen it myself, but if we are 'indulging' these extreme requests, where can you draw the line? Yes you can 'be a cat', and wear fluffy ears and tail and drink milk...that's effectively cosplay or fancy dress at school/work.

No, you cant use a cat litter, lay on the couch at home all day, respond only in ',miaows' when spoken too, refuse to write in class because you only have 'paws', stay out all  night on the tiles.

Because you are in fact, a human child.

So, do we really let them 'identify' or are we indulging a whim. Even worse, are we allowing this so we dont have to confront the more serious underlying mental health issues that have led to a child feeling they need to do this?

 

 

[Paul Woodward]

And going off on a tangent, I know of at least one employee who has been off work for around 5 years, goes in yearly for a review BUT will only meet with one person. The company have done this for so long now through fear of retaliation should they lay him off, that said employee would claim any harm he does to himself would be as a result of his 'support and income being cut off'.

The head of HR at the firm said its a growing concern, no one dare challenge 'mental health' issues at the moment and its likely this guy will receive his salary for the rest of his life yet never return to work. Friends who don't really believe him share his numerous Insta and FB reels where he seems to be having a jolly good time on a beach somewhere quite regularly. Address that and he simply claims its necessary for his mental wellbeing. 

I dont know where this will end....

[GRollins]

I long ago gave up on the notion of pets. I don't want to "own" another creature. I used to feed raccoons on the back deck; they were wild animals, free to come and go as they pleased. Sadly, that practice fell to the realities of my current life situation, but I feel absolutely no need to have an animal in my life just to make me feel better. And I absolutely do not need one to go out in the world. That's just dumb. Short of a seeing eye dog, I don't see that anyone needs a critter to get through the day.

 

Harrumph!

 

Grey

[Adan]

The idea that I "own" my dog is kind of absurd.  That lovely little fellow is in almost complete control of our lives. And he knows it!

[Stokely]

Good point on the extra deposit, it's my wife's area so she'll do that if need be.

We have to be careful with any kind of discrimination, I get the impression (which very well might be wrong) that we aren't able to apply anything "extra" toward the people with these animals...so any additional deposit might just have to be a blanket thing that applies to everyone.  And if so, that kinda sucks for everyone.

Anyway, I wasn't really trying to start any kind of war (and thankfully it hasn't).  For the most part we've had good renters but it is a tough job and I'm glad my wife is doing it!  I'm not very confrontational and honestly you need to be when doing any kind of property management.   She manages a fair number other than ours so she's got a lot of experience with it.

We'll see if this was just a fluke set of these pets or if this is the new norm moving forward.

[BluMunk]

I think you're probably right about this @Stokely. 

I will add (not because I think you need to be convinced, but to give some more context to a broader phenomenon) that despite stories about ridiculous people demanding ridiculous things, accommodation, compassion, belief, and understanding around disability is almost 100% non-existent among mainstream "normal" people and situations. 

Historically, people with physical and/or psychological disabilities just could not and did not participate in society, and consistently were taken advantage of or given the minimum of consideration. That has been changing over decades, with the added attention that a lot of social injustices have gotten in the social media/digital era, but society still treats disabled people horribly in most cases, because no one is willing to actually change patterns in a meaningful way to allow the disabled to participate fully. Being disabled shows you very quickly how little consideration the people and systems that are supposedly there for you actually have if you are unable to conform to an abled approach.

I admit that I too will roll my eyes at the concept of 'emotional support animals', and the degree to which it *feels* like anyone can just say 'support animal!' in order to get their pet into buildings. That said, I have also seen (and experienced) how pets can serve as emotional stabilizers and psychological aids. Particularly when someone is feeling alone and unsupported by society (because they're managing a disability, for example). The idea that that having access to that kind of comfort and care is at the discretion of a landlord can be infuriating. I've also seen how many hoops disabled people have to go through to get Doctor-signed-off-on accommodations of almost any kind. The system is a mess, and navigating it with significant disability can be almost impossible at times. If one goes through life thinking "if I don't see a doctor's note for this accommodation, the person doesn't really need it, or they are faking" I guarantee you that while sometimes you are right, more than 50% of the time you'll be an asshole, and completely wrong.

And also, of course, lots of people don't know how to adequately support and be responsible to their pets, which can lead to damaged property. I get the hesitancy of a landlord to allow pets.

Shitty all around.
 

[BluMunk]

20 hours ago, Paul Woodward said:

Taking this even further, I know of a kid who identifies as a cat. The parents insist the school make the necessary arrangements and staff have to go along with this too. Words fail me, I’m glad I left the classroom last year as this would be the last straw for me.

No, you don't.
 

 

4 hours ago, Paul Woodward said:

I have not seen it myself, but if we are 'indulging' these extreme requests, where can you draw the line? Yes you can 'be a cat', and wear fluffy ears and tail and drink milk...that's effectively cosplay or fancy dress at school/work.

No, you cant use a cat litter, lay on the couch at home all day, respond only in ',miaows' when spoken too, refuse to write in class because you only have 'paws', stay out all  night on the tiles.

So you haven't seen it for yourself? I thought you said you know someone who does, and whose parents facilitate. 
 

 

4 hours ago, Paul Woodward said:

So, do we really let them 'identify' or are we indulging a whim.

I don't think "we" are letting "them" identify as anything, because this isn't a real situation.

@AROIOS, that man is lying.

This is a "(very) OT" topic, and I can see why we generally keep things locked down pretty tight here on this forum. It doesn't take much for folks to start pulling in fear-mongering, click-bait, lies-pretending-to-be-news, people-today-are-too-tolerant-look-kids-are-shitting-in-litter-boxes-and-no-one-dares-stop-them bullshit.
 

[Piktor]

5 hours ago, Paul Woodward said:

I have not seen it myself, but if we are 'indulging' these extreme requests, where can you draw the line? Yes you can 'be a cat', and wear fluffy ears and tail and drink milk...that's effectively cosplay or fancy dress at school/work.

 

 

 

Sorry Paul, I noted that you said that you knew of such a student, not that you knew such a student. Is that one of those “my cousin knows a guy” sort of things? Certainly cos play is not the same thing as “identifying as a cat”. I was a public school junior high teacher for 33 years and I never saw any such thing, though my school did have and supported a gay straight alliance group. I taught the high level/gifted kids (not that I’m gifted myself 😁). Many of those kids joined this group in support of the minority. I don’t wish to make a political statement here, but in the interests of honest reporting, I would hope that by now we would all know that the “identifying as a cat” thing that was going around was just a political anti-trans meme. Could it be that you heard of this case from someone else who heard it from someone else? 

[Paul Woodward]

I referred to a student in a school where a friend works hence I havent 'seen it for myself'. Its certainly 'real' but I dont know how far they have gone with this in terms of accomodating, only that the parents are insisting the school accept this as a 'thing' and provide the necessary support for her. She may well have been 'influenced' by someone else doing this, or a meme...who knows but its certainly not a lie nor have I said that I know them personally in any way, or that they shit in a litter tray. I simply questioned how far we let the 'identifying' go.

Mental health is a real issue and its great that it is being discussed openly and being dealt with, but you have to question if everyone is genuinely in need of support/help or milking the situation (no cat pun intended).

I have been a teacher for 30 years and never seen this first hand. I went overseas to an evironment where none of the kids would 'identify' as an animal even though many boys were quite feminine in their appearances (this was Thailand) and since I returned I now work as a consultant. Perhaps its all triggered by Covid and the home schooling/lockdown we had here....

The UK government have very recently said that teachers do not have to accept students changing their pronouns anymore, that they go with what is on the birth certificate/school record. I assume this extends to 'non human' identification as well.

Anyway, this thread started with dogs, not cats, so lets get back on topic 😉