The Anti-Keyboardists

[wineandkeyz]

I've been fairly lucky, I guess. My main band doesn't bring our own PA or soundman, so we're at the mercy of the house sound guys. We've encountered a few problem children over the years, but most of them have been very knowledgeable and capable. In fact, I have worked with several of the more experienced ones to help balance my patches and setups.

 

As for rig size, I'm also lucky in that the guys in the band actually like it when I bring more than my usual two-keyboard rig. If we're on a larger stage and I only bring two, someone will ask where's the rest of my stuff. In fact, I was recently thinking about how I might cover our show using just one keyboard rig, and our bass player told me it might be possible but it just wouldn't look right.

[ProfD]

37 minutes ago, Stokely said:

Also--and this is another subject where I hear little offhand digs all the time--the more gear I have, the harder it is to level patches unless that gear is kind of do-one-thing keyboard like a rhodes.   The band loves to mention how the keyboards jump up and down in volume, and the band I subbed with recently said the same thing about their regular guy, so it's not just me!

Preparation is the key (no pun intended). 

 

The not so secret is that some musicians regardless of instrument tend to be judgmental. 

 

If musicians *see* a ton of gear or expensive...they expect to hear something to justify it. Human nature to a degree.

 

When it comes to playing music, whether it is talent or programming ability or whatever,  a musician has to bring it in order to be respected and accepted.

 

Anything less than having an A-game can lead to the anti-sentiment expressed in this thread.

 

To that end, musicians have to be realistic about themselves when it comes to their strengths and weaknesses and how it translates to pecking order.😎

[kpl1228]

There was an anti-synth ethos for quite a while in music (Queen's early albums said NO SYNTHS in the liner notes as a statement of pride) and by traditional, established musicians in NYC and LA (AFM's early anti-Moog statements). Rush and Floyd and Zep fans get into debates about the more "keyboard-y" albums that take the band in a different direction than the ones where they just played 3 chords and banged rocks together, or at least banged Marshall amps together.

I play keyboards but I like my rock music to be guitar driven, and for keyboards to be there to add color, with some exceptions of course. In the words of Billy Joel: could you imagine Purple Haze on a keyboard? It would be horrible! Which explains why many 30th and 40th anniversary albums with heavy keyboards that makes songs sound dated have had keyboards dramatically reduced in remixing. It's an effort to reduce cheese, or at least perceived cheese.

The guitar-centered world of rock music sees keyboards, unfairly or not, as watering down the aggression, taking the edge off of the fire.

There's also a nerdy "kid-that-took-piano-lessons" stereotype of keyboardists that plays against the Hendrix and Page and Slash phallic swagger of rock guitarists. For all of the love that Nick Rhodes and Greg Hawkes and Jan Hammer and Thomas Dolby and Jordan Rudess get, there's not a lot of kick-ass macho power chord presence to those guys. With the exception of Derek Sherinian: he looks like a bass player.

In short, I love keyboards, and I love a good keyboard talent, and I love the gear (and the keyboard gear worship is just as strong as it is with guitarists: this forum proves it). But sometimes keyboardists, and too much keyboards, aren't the answer. Regarding this audio of Jump: while an OBXa might be my favorite kick-ass synth, it still changes things into something way less primal and feral.  

Check out any of the keyboard-less covers of Gary Numan's "Cars." Guitar-driven and ass-kicking.

 

 

 

[ProfD]

6 minutes ago, kpl1228 said:

The guitar-centered world of rock music sees keyboards, unfairly or not, as watering down the aggression, taking the edge off of the fire.

 

There's also a nerdy "kid-that-took-piano-lessons" stereotype of keyboardists that plays against the Hendrix and Page and Slash phallic swagger of rock guitarists.

 

In short, I love keyboards, and I love a good keyboard talent, and I love the gear (and the keyboard gear worship is just as strong as it is with guitarists: this forum proves it). But sometimes keyboardists, and too much keyboards, aren't the answer.

The quiet part has been spoken out loud.  The elephant has been dragged from the living room out into the front yard.  Feel free to close the thread.🤣😎

[Jose EB5AGV]

I will have my first keyboard appreciation day 😬 on my band for this year tomorrow, as it will be the first rehearsal of 2024 and I will finally bring my own proper keyboard amplifier to the rehearsal room. I have been using an small Behringer B205D as my only sound source on rehearsals for about a year. And it has the big disadvantage that the sounds are always thin and make for a non-real mix which, when playing live, is completely changed (even sax player told me). So I decided to get a 10" 45W amplifier (also of the B brand, a K450FX), which should be more than enough for our small room. But that will mean the keys will be heard! 😆

 

So, well, I expect some comments like "why do you need that?" from guitar player, who uses a large amplifier, and also from drummer, which is of the caveman style 🤯

 

Maybe that will be my last rehearsal!. If that happens, so be it. More details in 24h 😉

[CHarrell]

2 hours ago, ProfD said:

If musicians *see* a ton of gear or expensive...they expect to hear something to justify it. Human nature to a degree.

 

That's why I painted my keyboard pink and plastered it with Hello Kitty stickers, nowhere to go but up!

[stoken6]

4 hours ago, kpl1228 said:

could you imagine Purple Haze on a keyboard?

A talented organ trio  could slay on Purple Rain. 

 

In fact (confirming a distant memory) Cory Henry's done it with the Metropole Orchestra.

 

4 hours ago, kpl1228 said:

too much keyboards, aren't the answer

No keyboards are also not the answer. The mono-tonality of a "guitar-only" band, unless they're super talented, is tedious in the extreme.

 

I agree with other points in your thread (particularly the phrase "phallic swagger").

 

Cheers, Mike.

[SMcD]

No doubt Cory would slay Rain. For Haze, I'd go with Lachy.  

[niacin]

Lachy has covered Voodoo Child, there's a few recordings on so you can make up your own mind about the level of fire or 'watered down aggression' he brings. 

 

I'm not sure I'd accuse Jon Lord of 'watered down aggression' either, sure he could play pretty, but there was plenty of fire when he wanted to go there. 

[schmalex]

I haven't really played in a band since the 9th grade of high school, when I was tasked with leading "Enter Sandman" on a flute (there was already a piano player)... but I think the lack of piano in a lot of bands may have more to do with the fact that a significant number of musicians are purely self-taught and can't read sheet music, etc, while piano / keyboard often requires a more formal learning approach to become proficient / advanced.

 

So, this is purely hypothetical guess work on my part, but I could see personality clashes developing between more formally trained pianists and self-taught musicians who have learned to play mostly by ear.

[stoken6]

9 hours ago, SMcD said:

No doubt Cory would slay Rain. For Haze, I'd go with Lachy.  

Do you know - I missed that!

 

Cheers, Mike.

[Stokely]

I coudn't find a great recording, there are a few live ones on youtube, but John Medeski and crew play a pretty mean Crosstown Traffic (to be fair, not sure that was a Hendrix original or if he covered it, doesn't matter.)   They also do Hey Joe and maybe others.

I'm a self-trained musician who can't read music and who learned to play by ear, so I largely fit in well with guitar neanderthals    I will say this, as a neophyte guitarist myself trying to learn--it drives me batty to play via "shape" without knowing instantly every note I'm playing.   The guitar fretboard is largely a "there be dragons" mysterious place where I use the open strings and markers to chart my way...I know it's not what most guitarists do, but I may challenge myself to get where I can instantly tell the note by looking at it, and eventually by position without seeing it (!)   Or something like that.   

And where is the person who said "let's have a different interval between the G and B string"?  My baseball bat and I would like a word.   Another thing that hurts my brain:  moving up or down the neck can sometimes be a higher note, and sometimes lower, because you can go *across* as well!   

Granted, I'm sure guitarists go nuts with every single scale on a keyboard having a different combo of black and white keys, I hope so at least!

[Leroy C]

1 hour ago, Stokely said:

 The guitar fretboard is largely a "there be dragons" mysterious place where I use the open strings and markers to chart my way...I know it's not what most guitarists do ...

I'm almost positive that's EXACTLY what most guitarists do ... 

[Tusker]

On 1/10/2024 at 12:25 PM, kpl1228 said:

In the words of Billy Joel: could you imagine Purple Haze on a keyboard? It would be horrible! Which explains why many 30th and 40th anniversary albums with heavy keyboards that makes songs sound dated have had keyboards dramatically reduced in remixing. It's an effort to reduce cheese, or at least perceived cheese.

The guitar-centered world of rock music sees keyboards, unfairly or not, as watering down the aggression, taking the edge off of the fire.

 

Agree that it's tough for keyboardists to be seen as heavy. As for Billy, it didn't work out so well in metal but I think he's laughing now. 😅

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[BenWaB3]

1 hour ago, Tusker said:

 

Agree that it's tough for keyboardists to be seen as heavy. As for Billy, it didn't work out so well in metal but I think he's laughing now. 😅

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I saw that group. This was during my Long Island phase of living locations. A Hammond through effects pedals into a straight amp, IIRC. They played a bar in Amityville (Yes, that Amityville) called The Daisy. I didn't think they were crazy loud, but the owner pulled the circuit breaker to the stage. A back room shouting match ensued and Billy eventually came back onstage, finished out and was supposedly promised a few more appearances there, although I don't think that actually came to fruition. From what I've heard in the past Billy supposedly really hates this part  of his history and has tried to keep this music suppressed but certainly don't know this for a fact. The drummer, Jon Small, was really good and had been in a previous band, The Hassles, with him. The album did get some play from the album-oriented rock FM stations in The City also.

[mate stubb]

I can see why Billy wants to forget. He killed the band after being caught shtupping the drummer's wife.

[Stokely]

5 hours ago, Leroy C said:

I'm almost positive that's EXACTLY what most guitarists do ... 

Yeah, I actually meant to say that that but my word-ifying was terrible.

I do get the impression that even some very good guitarists don't really always know exactly what they are playing in the same way I reckon a keyboard player does.  When we do a C-F-A F major inversion, you knowingly reach for those three notes, not contort your mitt into a claw shape that works up and down the keyboard    

And I'm not knocking it, it very obviously works, it's just that my brain hates it when I don't know exactly the notes I just played even when I manage to play the riff right.   So my thought would be that along with playing practice, I'd work on identifying "grid spots" on the fretboard to try to settle my brain down a bit   Can't hurt.

[djdisbro]

On 1/5/2024 at 4:43 PM, BenWaB3 said:

"The Anti-Keyboardists" Yeah, and they all end up making their wishes come true by becoming sound-men. 😀

And photographers....

 

[Tusker]

9 hours ago, mate stubb said:

I can see why Billy wants to forget. He killed the band after being caught shtupping the drummer's wife.

 

Wait, the keyboard player stole the drummer's girl?  

[Jose EB5AGV]

On 1/10/2024 at 7:07 PM, Jose EB5AGV said:

I will have my first keyboard appreciation day 😬 on my band for this year tomorrow, as it will be the first rehearsal of 2024 and I will finally bring my own proper keyboard amplifier to the rehearsal room. I have been using an small Behringer B205D as my only sound source on rehearsals for about a year. And it has the big disadvantage that the sounds are always thin and make for a non-real mix which, when playing live, is completely changed (even sax player told me). So I decided to get a 10" 45W amplifier (also of the B brand, a K450FX), which should be more than enough for our small room. But that will mean the keys will be heard! 😆

 

So, well, I expect some comments like "why do you need that?" from guitar player, who uses a large amplifier, and also from drummer, which is of the caveman style 🤯

 

Maybe that will be my last rehearsal!. If that happens, so be it. More details in 24h 😉

 

I quote myself so you have some background.

 

Yesterday was the rehearsal on which I introduced the small keyboard amplifier... And there were some interesting things to note.

 

First, the guitar player just told, after I presented it, that it was "more than enough". OK, I will take that as acceptance 😅

 

Then the caveman... I mean, drummer, got a nice surprise when he saw his drums covered with several pieces of thick fabric to lower the volume. That was made by the bass player, who happens to be his father, so he reluctantly accepted it 😆

 

Another interesting thing is that I needed to EQ my MODX6+ to remove bass, as it kind of coupled with the bass amplifier or perhaps it was just a room problem. All in all, I tamed it down with the internal EQ and also with the one on the amplifier.

 

So, summing up, what I anticipated as a problematic rehearsal ended far better than that 🥳

 

My little B amp has been accepted on the band creed!. This is the way 😉

[The Real MC]

15 hours ago, Tusker said:

 

Wait, the keyboard player stole the drummer's girl?  

 

You're not from Long Island, are you?

[Shamanzarek]

I may be joining a prominent local band that has been around for about 15 years and has never had a keyboard player before. They sent me a list of songs for the upcoming audition. Only two have keyboard on the original recording both of which I have done before and are pretty much background parts. Of course you can put keyboard in any song whether it makes sense or not. I'm sure they are not anti-keyboard but might be somewhat naive about their song choices. At least if I get the gig I will be working a lot.

[Tusker]

On 1/12/2024 at 8:59 AM, Jose EB5AGV said:

Another interesting thing is that I needed to EQ my MODX6+ to remove bass, as it kind of coupled with the bass amplifier or perhaps it was just a room problem. All in all, I tamed it down with the internal EQ and also with the one on the amplifier.

 

😅