Dave Grusin GRP All Stars - 80s LA Studio Jazz appreciation - DX7 et al

[CyberGene]

5 hours ago, Motif88 said:

hmm…I assume that you listened to the Jeff Lorber albums from 1977 - 1982 that included Kenny Gorelick and didn’t complain then.

Sure, I used to like Jeff Lorber Fusion and not complain 😀 What I meant with my previous post is, I wouldn’t listen to those  popular Kenny G albums released under his own name. Way too smooth and cheesy for my taste. And I never said he is a bad musician. It’s Pat Metheny who did and although I love the guy, that was an extremely stupid thing to do.

[CyberGene]

7 hours ago, ABECK said:

Cheezy or not, this gets me every time.

 

I made a piano transcription of that exact version 11 years ago and published it free for download (with a donation link). It’s been bringing me a few bucks every year, might have totaled $150 so far which is the only money I’ve made from music in my life 🤣 Here’s me playing it, with a link to my transcription in the description:

 

[tapes]

2 hours ago, CyberGene said:

Sure, I used to like Jeff Lorber Fusion and not complain 😀 What I meant with my previous post is, I wouldn’t listen to those  popular Kenny G albums released under his own name. Way too smooth and cheesy for my taste. And I never said he is a bad musician. It’s Pat Metheny who did and although I love the guy, that was an extremely stupid thing to do.

 

Actually, the first couple G albums are kind of good - but only because they're co-produced by Kashif, and it's his vocal R&B tracks that are the best ones 😄

 

Metheny was right, though 😉 And I don't agree on Gorelick being even that great. In my opinion he lacks the heritage / fundamentals and the creativity to call himself a jazz musician. Even back with Lorber - like, the album Water Sign (1979) - his "time feel" is always a bit wonky, a bit off, his tone is always too of sharp, and all he plays is basic pentatonic lickery. These days it's pretty much the same, although now he's added that silly showy "longest note held". All the other smooth jazzers were much more capable: Sanborn (although he hates being in that genre), Whalum, Albright, Marienthal, even Grover (who was probably Gorelick's biggest idol).

[tapes]

10 hours ago, AROIOS said:

Larry Williams is an under-appreciated multi-instrumentalist. Dude was an important part of the West Coast sound. And Seawind's influence on WestCoast AOR is as prominent as The Time on R&B.

 

Yep, what a beast! Also featured heavily on pretty much all the Quincy Jones productions. Seawind's horn section, with Jerry Hey, obviously on a ton of stuff.

[CyberGene]

3 hours ago, tapes said:

Metheny was right, though 😉 And I don't agree on Gorelick being even that great. In my opinion he lacks the heritage / fundamentals and the creativity to call himself a jazz musician.

 

Of course, I also agree with Metheny (and you) about everything, Kenny G is certainly a mediocre jazz saxophonist. What I find stupid is, one famous jazz musician publicly bashing another non-jazz musician, as though Kenny G is a jazz musician who somehow stole the audience and money from Metheny, with fraudulent claims or something? I mean, is there any fan of Metheny who would listen to Kenny G and won't notice his (lack of tight) jazz improvisation skills? Does one need to hear from Metheny that Kenny G can't play jazz? I doubt it. Maybe some fans of Kenny G believe his music is jazz. Maybe even he, himself, believes that is jazz. But that doesn't change anything. And it doesn't deserve outspoken mockery, let alone commenting on what scales he uses, how good or bad his rhythm is, etc. That's why I found Metheny's behavior rather silly. 

[Bobadohshe]

Metheny only unloaded on Kenny G when he overdubbed himself on Louis Armstrong. To him that was crossing a line and disrespecting the heritage of a jazz in a reprehensible way.

[CyberGene]

Before being gotten wrong, I can't stand the music of Kenny G 😀 And I love Pat Metheny (although to be honest, I actually love Lyle Mays and believe it's his contribution that made most of what I like in PMG).

 

But that's just cr*p about how overdubbing Armstrong is disrespectful, and how jazz is a sanctuary, and how if you can't play rhythmically tight and with more than pentatonics, you don't deserve to play on top of Armstrong, etc, etc.

[DroptopBroham]

12 hours ago, ProfD said:

The music produced by GRP allowed many musicians to earn a living by selling out and led to that abomination of a sub-genre...Smooth Jazz.

 

Fixed it for you.

[ABECK]

In my original post, I purposely tried to avoid the "Smooth Jazz" label by opting for "LA Studio Jazz"  (AKA West Coast Jazz).  I dunno, maybe I'm splitting hairs, but I've always put this lot in a different category than dentist office jazz.  Most of these guys are like the Wrecking Crew, phase 2, and to me, that is highly respectable.

[ProfD]

2 hours ago, CyberGene said:

...how jazz is a sanctuary, and how if you can't play rhythmically tight and with more than pentatonics, you don't deserve....

Every genre/style of music has a sound and approach that makes it different.  That authenticity has to be reflected when playing it. 

 

For example, I'd imagine that Balkan folk music requires certain instrumentation in order to maintain its sound. 

 

If I decide to chop up some Balkan music in an Akai MPC drum machine and put a beat on it...that's something else.  It might be hot or trash but it's definitely not authentic Balkan music.😁 

 

Musicians have the creative freedom to put their own spin on any type of music.  It becomes a sub-genre.  

 

The best thing for musicians to do when their music strays outside the genre is to find an audience that digs it and keep pushing. 

 

While I personally cannot stand it, I do recognize that Smooth Jazz fed a lot of musicians.🤣😎

 

[CyberGene]

1 hour ago, ProfD said:

If I decide to chop up some Balkan music in an Akai MPC drum machine and put a beat on it

 

Again, I completely agree with you but I'll use the above quote (and the fact we're in a smooth jazz thread) as an excuse to post a video of some Bulgarian folk music presented by David Sanborn 😀

 

 

I believe it's from the late 1980-s. BTW, that type of music is very popular on weddings here, but for one reason or another, some people consider it lowbrow, or rural (what you would call redneck, I guess) and many people would completely refuse to have that music on their Bulgarian wedding, me included 😀 (Our weddings was on the Black Sea beach with a Spotify playlist that we created with my wife and it was all Western: European and American pop/rock music, however there are people who would accuse us of not being patriotic and I tend to agree in retrospective, and sorry about not being more open-minded...) That being said, I occasionally feel the urge to dance it on other people's weddings, however some odd meters and dances are really advanced, but then there's always someone who happens to be a very good dance leader that would show the steps and others would learn and adapt in realtime... But I digress. 

 

Speaking of Balkan music and MPC, good luck programming those odd-meter rhythms 😛

 

A great keyboard stand at 5:40 in the above video, BTW.

[Docbop]

1 hour ago, ABECK said:

In my original post, I purposely tried to avoid the "Smooth Jazz" label by opting for "LA Studio Jazz"  (AKA West Coast Jazz).  I dunno, maybe I'm splitting hairs, but I've always put this lot in a different category than dentist office jazz.  Most of these guys are like the Wrecking Crew, phase 2, and to me, that is highly respectable.

 

I never heard it as Smooth Jazz especially then it was just Funky Jazz. Now a days with aging and need to pay bills it's getting to be more Smooth Jazz.   But I really hate that term Smooth Jazz.  

[counterpoint]

Here's AI's take of where the term "Smooth Jazz" came from:

 

"The term “smooth jazz” was created as a result of radio marketing efforts. It was during the mid-1970s in the United States that the music was known as “smooth radio,” and it wasn’t until the 1980s that the term “smooth jazz” came into use. The phrase was coined by a participant in an industry focus group in the late 1980s, and it has since stuck as a descriptor for this genre of music.

 

Smooth jazz is a genre that emerged from jazz fusion and is characterized by its commercially oriented, crossover appeal. It gained prominence in the 1980s, with artists like George Benson, Kenny G, and Grover Washington Jr. contributing to its popularity. The style is known for its melodic form and often incorporates elements of pop music and lightweight R&B."

 

Reading between the lines of those offended by this music, it seems to tie to the word "jazz" being associated with it...but as you can see, the artists had nothing to do with the coining of this term. Personally, I enjoy it for what it is regardless of what it's called and frequently listen to many of the artists within the genre.  I've even dabbled in composing music (for fun) that would likely qualify under this label dating back over 40 years ago.  Shame on someone who writes something non-lyrical and melodic and calls it "jazz" I guess...

[ProfD]

1 hour ago, counterpoint said:

Smooth jazz is a genre that emerged from jazz fusion and is characterized by its commercially oriented, crossover appeal.

 

Shame on someone who writes something non-lyrical and melodic and calls it "jazz" I guess...

No need for shame whatsoever. 

 

I doubt that Kenny G or anybody else who's been successful in it feels badly about their chosen style of music.

 

There's enough room on this cruise-liner called music for all types of it.😎

[CHarrell]

In response to a lot of posts on here, my own proclivities and tastes aside, I'm just gonna say there can be a huge difference between hearing and listening.

[Docbop]

2 hours ago, ProfD said:

I doubt that Kenny G or anybody else who's been successful in it feels badly about their chosen style of music.

 

You only feel bad when your trying to be a real hip cutting edge player and some  reviewer calls you a excellent Smooth Jazz artist.    <grin>

[CHarrell]

I remember reading an interview with Kenny G in the 90s where he was confused why the musicians in his band weren't happy even though he was paying them a lot.

 

EDIT: Now I'm trying to find the book, it was a collection of interviews by a trombone player, Marcus Zweig, Zwere, something like that? Sound familiar to anyone?

[SteinwayB]

In defining smooth jazz I'm reminded of Chief Justice Stewart's definition of pornography "I know it when I see it".  When I surf stations and encounter smooth jazz, my response is "wow, these musicians sound great, why do I hate this so much?... oh it's smooth jazz."

 

BTW, I was late teens/early 20's when Dave Grusin, Jeff Lorber, Tom Scott, Lee Rit became active and I loved the stuff then, not so much now.   I did see Jeff Lorber play at Toad's Place; great show.    I do appreciate the Richard T influence on Dave's electric grand solo.  

[jarrell]

12 hours ago, tapes said:

 

Yep, what a beast! Also featured heavily on pretty much all the Quincy Jones productions. Seawind's horn section, with Jerry Hey, obviously on a ton of stuff.

12 hours ago, tapes said:

 

Yep, what a beast! Also featured heavily on pretty much all the Quincy Jones productions. Seawind's horn section, with Jerry Hey, obviously on a ton of stuff.

 

12 hours ago, tapes said:

 

Yep, what a beast! Also featured heavily on pretty much all the Quincy Jones productions. Seawind's horn section, with Jerry Hey, obviously on a ton of stuff.

Check out Larry William's Minimoog solo (and outro solo) on the tune "Streetwave," on the Quincy Jones produced album "Blam" by the Brothers Johnson. Also note his comment (willyworld1234) noting how he replaced his idol George Duke at the last moment on synth for this cut... The whole album is both blatantly commercial but cool, with Quincy's touch featuring the Seawind horns and players like Harvey Mason, Richard Tee, etc.

 

 

[CHarrell]

12 minutes ago, Dave Ferris said:

And it's very sad to see Eric Marienthal lumped into that category. Anyone that has been on the band stand with him knows the depth and virtuosity of his playing. World Class all the way.

 

Can't imagine a Chick alum being anything but.

 

Though his Vigil lineup was especially top of the top....

[AROIOS]

20 hours ago, Motif88 said:

hmm…I assume that you listened to the Jeff Lorber albums from 1977 - 1982 that included Kenny Gorelick and didn’t complain then.

His short stint with the Rippingtons weren't shabby either.

Even his early solo albums were way over-bashed by the "cool kids". They were mostly standard e-Funk and R&B stuff that weren't any cheesier than the Top 40s of the day.

Kenny G did become overly saccharine, even by Pop standards, after Walter Afanasieff took over his production. But then, the Breathless album was still a pleasant Pop album, and Walter/G played my favorite version of "Winter Wonderland".

Here's a Preston Glass production for G. I simply don't trust the taste of anyone who calls this "cheese":
 

 

[jazzpiano88]

On 1/4/2024 at 4:24 PM, CyberGene said:

I'll get into a bar fight if someone says something bad about Dave Grusin! But I have to admit that besides his really unique and very own style and some great recordings under his name (as a musician), he's been also behind some rather cheesy records as a producer... But who cares 😀

He did some Columbo music that is just outstanding.   In his soundtrack for The Firm, Sydney Pollack told him to score it 100% piano.   What an amazing result!   
 

[AROIOS]

7 hours ago, ABECK said:

In my original post, I purposely tried to avoid the "Smooth Jazz" label by opting for "LA Studio Jazz"  (AKA West Coast Jazz).  I dunno, maybe I'm splitting hairs, but I've always put this lot in a different category than dentist office jazz.  Most of these guys are like the Wrecking Crew, phase 2, and to me, that is highly respectable.

DroptopBroham had a point. Pop Jazz was a slippery slope. A lot, if not most of the 70s~90s Pop Jazz guys became unbearably boring ("smooth") after the mid 90's, even by Pop/Urban standards.

[jazzpiano88]

On 1/4/2024 at 4:24 PM, AROIOS said:

Larry Williams is an under-appreciated multi-instrumentalist. Dude was an important part of the West Coast sound. And Seawind's influence on WestCoast AOR is as prominent as The Time on R&B.

I was going to say, that’s the great Larry Williams in the thumbnail.  He absolutely nails the articulations in the keyboard lines.  
Why wouldn’t he, being a world class reed player?    

[jazzpiano88]

4 minutes ago, AROIOS said:

DroptopBroham had a point. Pop Jazz was a slippery slope. A lot, if not most of the 70s~90s Pop Jazz guys became unbearably boring ("smooth") after the mid 90's, even by Pop/Urban standards.

Money.  You had entire FM stations devoted to playing the stuff all day every day, and these guys all had recording contacts paying them to generate this specifically.   

[AROIOS]

15 minutes ago, jazzpiano88 said:

I was going to say, that’s the great Larry Williams in the thumbnail.  He absolutely nails the articulations in the keyboard lines.  
Why wouldn’t he, being a world class reed player?    

His arrangement and synth programming on Ivan Lins' "Love Dance" was nothing short of being magical. Lots of musicians tried to cover the song but none ever came close.
 

 

[CHarrell]

53 minutes ago, AROIOS said:

His arrangement and synth programming on Ivan Lins' "Love Dance" was nothing short of being magical. Lots of musicians tried to cover the song but none ever came close.
 

 

 

Thanks for the link! I was just familiar with Ivan Lins for his collaboration with Irakere:

 

 

[ewall08530]

Years ago I discovered Yellowjackets when they were on the GRP label. “Smooth Jazz” also introduced me to Joe Sample, Fourplay, Jeff Lorber, etc.  It was part of my journey to more traditional jazz.  

[elsongs]

On 1/4/2024 at 2:18 PM, AROIOS said:

Hating on Pop Jazz is as silly as highschoolers digging Nirvana and bashing Michael Bolton.
 

And the word "guilty" is pretty indicative of how conformist we humans naturally are. Guilty of what? who got hurt? what morals were broken?
 

Or is it more likely we felt "guilty" exactly the same way a highschooler gets peer-pressured into feeling not "cool" enough?

And didn't Taylor Swift's kindergarden drivel get praised here by so-called "Jazz" players not so long ago? 😆

Because Prog Rock is the only acceptable music genre you're supposed to like on this forum -- because it makes you rich and famous and gets you all the hot chicks. 🤣😆

[Tusker]

I've found that great music is great music, regardless of genre. If you can capture the imagination of your listener, if you can take them on a journey, if there is a human connection, then it's great music. For that listener.

 

When I was a teen, Aunty Beeb used a portion of Dave Grusin's Mountain Dance to introduce one of her radio shows. It was just a snippet but what a earworm! I'd wait for the show, just to hear those off-beat arpeggios. Imagine my joy to one day find that the entire track was just as cunning, imaginative and skillfully performed. It was and still is great music. YMMV.