Yamaha to launch new GENOS 2 today

[Chummy]

Looks like a super fun keyboard but unfortunately too expensive for me to justify the purchase. Honestly, with that money I can get a decent acoustic piano, or add some more and save for a really premium one. I love the sounds though and the FM-X addition!

[Dockeys]

Who is this aimed at? One man band situations? At that price who could even afford one? Unless one man bands pay has skyrocketed in recent years? It looks fun but that Bonners video…..Tony looked completely bored throughout the whole presentation. 

[Jose EB5AGV]

1 hour ago, Dockeys said:

Who is this aimed at? One man band situations? At that price who could even afford one? Unless one man bands pay has skyrocketed in recent years? It looks fun but that Bonners video…..Tony looked completely bored throughout the whole presentation. 

 

I guess the "people playing at home for entertainment" is the greatest group who will buy it.

 

I am guilty of having bought a Genos back in 2018, when I had really no clue of what I was going to do regarding playing keys (I got it just 4 months into playing!). It has sat covered and unused most of the time, while the Kawai VPC1 has got daily use and the MONTAGE and MODX+ are regularly used playing and rehearsing on my band since I joined it two years ago.

 

I was lucky to buy it new but relatively cheap (about 3100€). I still keep it for some occasional use, but for me it is truly difficult to get inspired while playing it. Probably my playing level is a big part of that. Perhaps when it improves, I will find my way through it. It is now on a double deck stand, at the lower shelf, with a gorgeous MONTAGE 6 White on top. So now my flagship keyboards are both discontinued 😆

 

I can't complain, just keep learning. My problem is not the tools!

[Radagast]

3 hours ago, Dockeys said:

Who is this aimed at? One man band situations? At that price who could even afford one? Unless one man bands pay has skyrocketed in recent years? 

Maybe it’s aimed at the folks who spent staggering amounts of money for those big Lowrey organs.

[AnotherScott]

3 hours ago, Dockeys said:

Who is this aimed at? One man band situations? At that price who could even afford one? Unless one man bands pay has skyrocketed in recent years?

Again, at least in the U.S.,  it's a bit cheaper than the model it is replacing (prior to its $5k bargain closeout pricing). It's also the same price as a Nord Stage 4-88, as it happens.

 

I bet it's less than what many of us have spent on the multiple keyboards so many of us have. Some people buy one super fancy board, some people buy multiple less fancy boards... and either way, it's not necessarily just about whether the gig pay really justifies it. And as Jose and Radagast said, gigging players is not necessarily a board's primary market anyway.

 

The world is full of luxury items whose cost is hard to justify for anything beyond someone's pleasure in using it. You think some of our gear is pricey, you should check out what some guitarists pay for a guitar! Or buy a boat. 😉

 

Probably many of us here have bought cars where some other model for $5k less could have served our actual transportation needs just as well. It depends what your priorities are, not everything comes down to "bang for buck." And obviously, people's financial situations vary tremendously.

 

In the end, if something is priced too high for what it offers (objectively and subjectively), it won't sell in enough quantity for the manufacturer to continue to market. If Yamaha didn't sell a good quantity of $6k Genos, then I bet we wouldn't be seeing a nearly $6k Genos 2. Korg Pa5X gets up there too. So there is clearly a market for these boards, gig-justifiable or not. And they are cool boards, even if you're just a music hobbyist. Maybe especially if that's what you are. 😉

 

[konaboy]

i always wonder why arrangers are so expensive relative to synths.

comparing flagships, Genos 2 is $5700 and Montage M7 is $4000.

Genos has stuff that Montage doesn't and vice-versa but they seem to be "equivalent".

[AnotherScott]

57 minutes ago, konaboy said:

i always wonder why arrangers are so expensive relative to synths.

comparing flagships, Genos 2 is $5700 and Montage M7 is $4000.

Genos has stuff that Montage doesn't and vice-versa but they seem to be "equivalent".

 

For Genos 2 vs. Montage M hardware, maybe PJD will chime in, he always seems to have interesting info about the guts of these things. 

 

But also, arrangers are not always pricier. While Yamaha and Korg's most expensive portable keyboards are arrangers, as it happens also some of their least expensive keyboards are likewise arrangers! So while Genos pricing may top Montage, and Pa5X tops Nautilus, at the other end of the spectrum, Yamaha has numerous PSR arrangers that are cheaper than their MX, and Korg's EK50 and i3 are cheaper than Kross.

[konaboy]

good point Scott, yes.

 

what I really meant then was why are top-of-the-line arrangers more expensive than synths.

 

It's interesting to compare the priciest PSR-SX900 at $2800 with MODX at $1500.  PSR has exact same screen, very similar keybed, same type of plastic construction, same level of quality. Why almost double the price?

 

Edit - I see you can find the PSR for 2300, but even so...

 

Is it because of the Styles?  Or just because the people that tend to like arrangers, tend to be more wealthy and willing to spend more $$$ than a synth buyer?

 

I can also see how the synth market is more competitive with more brands and options, whereas if you want an arranger, then it's either Korg or Yamaha really.

 

[ProfD]

2 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

The world is full of luxury items whose cost is hard to justify for anything beyond someone's pleasure in using it.

That's it.  Shut the front door.  

 

Fundamentally, I know the above to be true but I doubt that it will stop me from calling out the redundant and/or overpriced.🤣

 

I can see arrangers appealing to a market of musicians and/or hobbyists who do not play with other musicians for one reason or several.😎

[AnotherScott]

20 minutes ago, konaboy said:

It's interesting to compare the priciest PSR-SX900 at $2800 with MODX at $1500.  PSR has exact same screen, very similar keybed, same type of plastic construction, same level of quality. Why almost double the price?

 

Edit - I see you can find the PSR for 2300, but even so...

 

Is it because of the Styles?  Or just because the people that tend to like arrangers, tend to be more wealthy and willing to spend more $$$ than a synth buyer?

 

I can also see how the synth market is more competitive with more brands and options, whereas if you want an arranger, then it's either Korg or Yamaha really.

 

That PSR does have some other capabilities that may require additional hardware (like audio recording, vocal harmonizer, speakers, more buttons, possibly better action)... But sure, the demographics of the market and competitive situation can play a factor too... and I doubt Yamaha is going to tell us. 😉 

[Delaware Dave]

14 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

IIRC, the $5700 MAP is $300 less than the original Genos was before they lowered it a month or so ago.

i feel alot better now knowing that. Again, WTF?

[AnotherScott]

25 minutes ago, Delaware Dave said:

i feel alot better now knowing that. Again, WTF?

Again, if the earlier Genos hadn't been a success at $6k, I doubt we'd be seeing a nearly $6k Genos 2. There's a market. You might as well be saying WTF to the price of a BMW, Lexus, or Tesla. But they seem to have no shortage of willing customers.

[pjd]

22 hours ago, GovernorSilver said:

 

Thanks, pj.

 

Now I have something legit to GAS for after I have fully mastered the use of my PSR-SX600, to where I can just raise an eyebrow and it magically cooks up the perfect accompaniment in response to my psychic waves.   Just like the master monks in the 36th room of the 36 Levels of Shaolin.

 

I know exactly what you mean by Schlager styles.   Le fromage, el queso, however you want to name it, is strong with those.  Uh oh, there's a Schlager style demo at 42 min!

 

The British guy who took over demoing the Genos 2 at around 30 min. has similar tastes to mine, lol.

 

Ay, guv, thanks for reading the blog!

 

Last week, I walked through the arranger Data Lists across the whole arranger line. That SX600 is no slouch. 

 

Thanks for loading up the DJX-II style pack, too! I have some additional styles which I really should distribute. I'm tempted to run them through the new MIDI file to style conversion app just to see what's up. Would take additional time and effort, tho'.

 

All the best, peace -- pj

 

Music technology blog: sandsoftwaresound.net

 

[pjd]

4 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

 

For Genos 2 vs. Montage M hardware, maybe PJD will chime in, he always seems to have interesting info about the guts of these things. 

 

But also, arrangers are not always pricier. While Yamaha and Korg's most expensive portable keyboards are arrangers, as it happens also some of their least expensive keyboards are likewise arrangers! So while Genos pricing may top Montage, and Pa5X tops Nautilus, at the other end of the spectrum, Yamaha has numerous PSR arrangers that are cheaper than their MX, and Korg's EK50 and i3 are cheaper than Kross.

 

Thanks for saying nice things about the blog, Scott.

 

The compute and tone generation core is very similar between the mid-/upper-end synths and arrangers. Differences are largely due to display(s), choice of keybed, front panel gizmos (plus gizmo scanning), digital audio handling and amplification system.

 

Parts is parts, but a large part of the base cost is software and content (digital assets). Without tipping my hand about night-time activities, you would be shocked at the sheer number of digital assets in one of these products. (Same can be said for video games). That's why Yamaha and other manufacturers reuse waveforms like crazy across product lines. The synths and arrangers are voiced differently by the sound designers. More cost.

 

Styles are not that easy to develop. [I've tried my hand at this.] The MAINs and FILLs need to be versatile. The musically complicated INTROs and ENDINGs need to strongly suggest popular songs without stepping on copyright. Some folks here know this problem -- The director/producer throws you a temp track and says "I want it to sound like this." Good luck avoiding infringement. 🙂

 

The arrangers and synths have separate, unique code bases due to their unique functionality/UI. The synthesis software layers are definitely different, too.

 

In Genos, Yamaha created a product with the expectation that it will lead all other product lines. Part of the Genos selling price is the non-recurring expense of producing the next Genos. Thus, Genos funds a lot of advanced development (and research) in the Yamaha Digital Musical Instrument division.

 

Yikes, this response has gotten way too long -- pj

 

Music technology blog: sandsoftwaresound.net

 

[pjd]

BTW, arrangers are quite common as so-called professional instruments in many parts of the world.

 

It ain't no accident that a large number of styles are "schlager". I remember getting blissfully drunk outdoors in Erlangen watching and listening to schlager. 🙂 In South Africa, I watched a street kid rock the s--t out of a beat-up old arranger. It's a privilege to have what I have...

 

Peace -- pj

 

North America is an arranger desert.

 

[GovernorSilver]

9 hours ago, Jose EB5AGV said:

 

 

I am guilty of having bought a Genos back in 2018, when I had really no clue of what I was going to do regarding playing keys (I got it just 4 months into playing!). It has sat covered and unused most of the time, while the Kawai VPC1 has got daily use and the MONTAGE and MODX+ are regularly used playing and rehearsing on my band since I joined it two years ago.

 

 

What made you want to buy a Genos?

 

Did you have any previous experience with arranger keyboards?

[Jose EB5AGV]

2 hours ago, GovernorSilver said:

 

What made you want to buy a Genos?

 

Did you have any previous experience with arranger keyboards?

 

Not really. I had just begun to play the piano and thought it could be a good and funny tool to learn to play. But then I realised that the FSX keybed was not ideal to practice my piano lessons and that, to play something interesting on the arranger, I needed to walk a long way... I had just acquired a DGX660 a couple months before the Genos, and my playing time was redirected to it.

 

I still think the arranger will have some use in the not too far future, but sincerely, both my acoustic piano (Yamaha U3H) and my piano controller (Kawai VPC1) fill my playing time when I am no playing on the MONTAGE or MODX+ as part of my band work. I am toying with the idea of using the Genos along the MONTAGE (it is in fact setup that way), as a dual tier setup, but by now just at home, not planning to gig with more than one keyboard yet (don't have yet the skills to do that 😅)

[GovernorSilver]

Interesting.  I'm sure you would have appreciated having someone give you better guidance before you bought the Genos, but it is what it is.

 

My first arranger keyboard was also a Yamaha DGX-series but it was a lower end model than the DGX-660.  I used it as a cheap digital piano and avoided using any arranger features.  I just did not understand what arranger keyboards were really about at the time.  My income level was kind of low at the time, so I couldn't afford the real digital pianos.

 

I later joined a band and was asked to bring the DGX to rehearsals after they learned I had a keyboard.  They didn't care that I didn't have a pro-level keyboard rig.  I had it connected by MIDI cable to an Emu Command Station XL-7, so what they heard most of the time was actually the Emu, not the DGX, except when I would accidentally start the default accompaniment on the DGX, which was a pop ballad style that kind of sounded like Stevie Wonder's "I Just Called To Say I Love You", and the other band members would laugh and tease me about it.  There were certain controls on that DGX that were just too easy to accidentally trigger with the left hand to start that accompaniment.  I didn't think of just turning the speaker volume of the DGX all the way down since it was just being used as a MIDI controller.

 

I bought the PSR-SX600 after I got GAS for the Casio CT-S1000V, researched it, started comparing it to the competing Yamaha arrangers, got less interested in the vocal synthesis and more interested in the auto accompaniment features, did more and more research, and eventually settled on this PSR which cost more than the Casio but was priced like peanuts compared to the Genos, Korg Pa4x, etc.   It's been great for trying out a bunch of different musical styles for the same chord progression, without having to put in the tedious effort to reprogram the drum parts, bass parts, etc. for every new style.

 

I don't really see it as a replacement for playing with other people.  One of friends and former bandmates used a four track cassette recorder to write songs, and later switched to Garageband.  This is just another tool for creating music.

 

So the Genos 2 looks like a nice upgrade over my PSR, when my skillset on the PSR has evolved to where I can justify the upgrade.  I've barely scratched the surface of the PSR.

 

BTW the street price for Genos 2 appears to be $5700 at Guitar Center, Kraft Music, etc.  

[Jose EB5AGV]

53 minutes ago, GovernorSilver said:

Interesting.  I'm sure you would have appreciated having someone give you better guidance before you bought the Genos, but it is what it is.

 

Well, it seems I had more money than brain at that moment. And, trust me, I am not rich by any measure. And try to spend money wisely in general... Except when GAS gets me, that is! 😆

 

What is interesting is that all of this new Genos thing has rekindled my interest to play mine, so not all is lost! 😃

[GovernorSilver]

20 minutes ago, Jose EB5AGV said:

 

Well, it seems I had more money than brain at that moment. And, trust me, I am not rich by any measure. And try to spend money wisely in general... Except when GAS gets me, that is! 😆

 

What is interesting is that all of this new Genos thing has rekindled my interest to play mine, so not all is lost! 😃

 

What I meant was, if I went into the music store looking for a suitable instrument for learning how to play piano, and they sold me a Genos instead of a a Yamaha CP4 - or whatever high quality digital piano was available at the time - I'd be pissed when I realized what had happened.

 

That's why I sometimes like to meet up with a friend like ProfD at the store, and benefit from his experience and perspective which is not informed by a simple desire to sell the most expensive product to unsuspecting customers.

 

I was at this same store when I saw a customer head towards the analog polysynths, play with them a bit, then tell the sales staff he wanted a keyboard with nice piano, organ and string sounds for writing rock songs.  🤔  They were nice enough to send him to the rompler section instead of just selling him a Prophet 10 for $$$$$.

[Jose EB5AGV]

On 11/17/2023 at 12:31 AM, GovernorSilver said:

 

What I meant was, if I went into the music store looking for a suitable instrument for learning how to play piano, and they sold me a Genos instead of a a Yamaha CP4 - or whatever high quality digital piano was available at the time - I'd be pissed when I realized what had happened.

 

That's why I sometimes like to meet up with a friend like ProfD at the store, and benefit from his experience and perspective which is not informed by a simple desire to sell the most expensive product to unsuspecting customers.

 

I was at this same store when I saw a customer head towards the analog polysynths, play with them a bit, then tell the sales staff he wanted a keyboard with nice piano, organ and string sounds for writing rock songs.  🤔  They were nice enough to send him to the rompler section instead of just selling him a Prophet 10 for $$$$$.

 

Ok, I see your point. In my case, all the "research" was done by myself so there is no other culprit but me. I knew it was not the best thing to play piano on, but seemed interesting to have all those capabilities... Which are of little use when your playing s*cks 😆

 

I am really not pissed off for that acquisition, it is just a big (and expensive) lesson 😬. Now that I am playing on a band and also attending piano and harmony/composition classes, I see also the possibilities of the arranger as a composition tool. So, well, someday I will take advantage of having it on my home studio 👍🏻

[Keyboardplayer]

Marketing to retirees is a big part of the equation as to why flagship arrangers are more expensive than flagship workstations/synths in my opinion. The older generation has most of the money, therefore they have more money to burn on "luxury items" for their own personal enjoyment. Yamaha has a huge following of both young and old folks and since Yamaha is in business to make money and to stay in business they push the envelope on what people are willing to pay for these fancy arranger gadgets. Since most of the people who buy the Genos2 have money to burn, I suppose Yamaha probably doesn't feel bad about charging people an arm and a leg (maybe both arms and legs) for what should be a lower cost product based on hardware/software capability and common sense. Yamaha probably makes a profit of around $2,000-$2,500 on each unit sold, I would estimate. That pays the bills and then some, plus it keeps the shareholders happy as the money keeps rolling in. But make no mistake. The Genos/2 really are great keyboards that sound really good for what they are. Basically every category of sounds on the Genos/2 are top shelf material. The Genos2 expands it further with its new DX7/FM engine? I'm not sure if it's a real engine, as some people have also suggested. It does replicate the exact sound of an actual DX7 I understand. But I decided to hold off getting a Genos2 since I already have a Genos and in my opinion Yamaha missed a great opportunity over the last six years to up the ante in a more spectacular way. If Yamaha had added the VCM organ engine from the YC-series and released S.Art3 voices and put in a VH3 (VH2 currently) - vocal harmonizer, I probably would have upgraded. Instead, Yamaha significantly reduced the system storage on the Genos2 from 58GB on the Genos to only 15GB on the Genos2. There's no longer a Digital Output on the Genos2 which the Genos does have. Yammie dropped support for GS voices since the specification webpage for the Genos2 doesn't list GS support in any way shape or form. It's like they took two steps forward and one step back. I'm looking forward to the Genos3 though. It should be available in about 3-4 years if we don't have another global pandemic in the meantime. 😉 I wanted to post this short song from the Genos which as I said I own. The Genos still holds its own six years on. The voices used are the S.Art2 Clarinet and the S.Art Seattle Romance Strings. No style accompaniment. PS: You can use an arranger keyboard just like a traditional workstation/synth if you want. A lot of people always assume arrangers and styles always go hand in hand. Not necessarily. That's the beauty of arranger keyboards. 😎 

 

 

[AnotherScott]

25 minutes ago, Keyboardplayer said:

The Genos2 expands it further with its new DX7/FM engine? I'm not sure if it's a real engine, as some people have also suggested. It does replicate the exact sound of an actual DX7 I understand.

The specs make it pretty clear that it has an FM engine. And the only way to have the "exact sound of an actual DX7" would be for it to have an FM engine.

 

25 minutes ago, Keyboardplayer said:

If Yamaha had added the VCM organ engine from the YC-series and released S.Art3 

S.Art3?

[cassdad]

1 hour ago, AnotherScott said:

The specs make it pretty clear that it has an FM engine. And the only way to have the "exact sound of an actual DX7" would be for it to have an FM engine.

 

S.Art3?

I think he’s referring to Yamaha’s “Articulation” = additional effects that help an instrument sound more “real” (like an air sound on a sax, or the vibrato, harmonics on a guitar string, etc.).

[AnotherScott]

18 minutes ago, cassdad said:

I think he’s referring to Yamaha’s “Articulation” = additional effects that help an instrument sound more “real” (like an air sound on a sax, or the vibrato, harmonics on a guitar string, etc.).

There's Super Articulation, and Super Articulation 2, but I've never heard of SA 3. PJD has a good take on the distinctions between SA and SA2 at the link below. 

 

https://sandsoftwaresound.net/sa-and-sa2-yamahas-words/

[o0Ampy0o]

3 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

...the only way to have the "exact sound of an actual DX7" would be for it to have an FM engine.

 

 "Exact as the actual" aka "kind of similar"

[GovernorSilver]

I took a look at the reference manual

 

https://usa.yamaha.com/files/download/other_assets/5/2179945/Genos2_RM_En_A0_web.pdf

 

From P. 55

 

Quote

 

FM Voice

 

Determines the settings for creating a sense of thickness and spaciousness in an FM tone generator Voice. This setting is available only when an FM Voice is selected.

 

Mode Determines how many notes are generated when one note is played: one note (Off), two simultaneous notes (2 Unison), or four simultaneous notes (4 Unison).

 

Detune Determines the difference in pitch between the two or four notes, which affects how thick or warm the sound is.

 

Spread Determines the difference in panning between the two or four notes, which affects the stereo width of the sound.

 

 

I was not expecting the same FM editing capability as Montage/MontageM 😀  I didn't expect any editing capability at all, actually.  Right before the FM Voice section, the manual covers the voice editing settings (filter, envelope, etc.) that apply to all voices in general.

 

P.56 is the Organ Flutes section.  I don't know if those organ pipes are samples or modeled. 

[AnotherScott]

Right, Yamaha arrangers never have deep editing functions. You can't do it with the AWM2 sounds, so it's no surprise you can't do it with the FM sounds.  AFAIK, Organ Flutes has always used sampled waveforms, but via a dedicated engine that is implemented differently from standard AWM voices. I think the virtual tonewheels are phase-locked, and they don't use up polyphony the way the "all 9 bars" patch on the Montage does. I think it's the same as the Reface YC and the CK61/88 implementation.

[GovernorSilver]

Glancing at the voice parameters (filter, env, etc.) they seem to be pretty much the same as on my PSR-SX600.  This was just a glance, mind you. 

 

From what I recall of Benn Jordan's Pa5X video, the editing on the Korg side isn't that much deeper.

 

But nobody really buys this class of machine for deep sound design.

[AnotherScott]

Actually, that's one of the big differences between Yamaha and Korg arrangers (in the mid to higher range)... Korg sounds are deeply editable, Yamaha's are not.