Yamaha to launch new GENOS 2 today

[jerrythek]

35 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

Actually, that's one of the big differences between Yamaha and Korg arrangers (in the mid to higher range)... Korg sounds are deeply editable, Yamaha's are not.

Yes, Korg arrangers offer complete voice editing… it’s a very advanced engine, with up to 24 oscillators/full voices, and advanced things like round robin voice allocation, and “gestures” which they call DNC (similar to Yamaha’s articulations)… Not as well known, but this is the same voice architecture used in the SV Stage Pianos.

[jerrythek]

On 11/16/2023 at 3:55 AM, Dockeys said:

Who is this aimed at? One man band situations? At that price who could even afford one? Unless one man bands pay has skyrocketed in recent years? It looks fun but that Bonners video…..Tony looked completely bored throughout the whole presentation. 

In many parts of the world, arrangers are the professional keyboards… yes, a lot of one-person bands, duos etc. And they are used by the people who used to play Theatre organs… They are less popular in the US, and surprisingly in the native Japanese market. 

[GovernorSilver]

Seems like the person who is thinking of swapping his Pa5X for a Genos 2 or MontageM  (posted page 1 I think) might want to reconsider then... if deeper voice editing is a high priority for him and he doesn't want to give up arranger features.

 

I assumed a Nautilus would be superior to the Pa5X for jobs that require deep synthesis - if we're comparing Korg to Korg, but maybe I'm wrong on that front too.

[stoken6]

12 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

Right, Yamaha arrangers never have deep editing functions. You can't do it with the AWM2 sounds, so it's no surprise you can't do it with the FM sounds.  AFAIK, Organ Flutes has always used sampled waveforms, but via a dedicated engine that is implemented differently from standard AWM voices. I think the virtual tonewheels are phase-locked, and they don't use up polyphony the way the "all 9 bars" patch on the Montage does. I think it's the same as the Reface YC and the CK61/88 implementation.

Does anyone know what the rotary sim is like (Same as CK?) Can you pan organ L/everything else R to add a Vent pedal?

 

Cheers, Mike.

[konaboy]

6 hours ago, stoken6 said:

Does anyone know what the rotary sim is like (Same as CK?) Can you pan organ L/everything else R to add a Vent pedal?

 

Cheers, Mike.

No, the leslie and hammond emulation is rather weak in most people's opinions, not inherited from reface, YC, CK afaik. you don't buy one of these for use as a clonewheel i'm afraid.

[AnotherScott]

My understanding is that Genos, CK, and Reface use the same organ engine ("Organ Flutes") but not the same Leslie emulation (and also, I think not all the same options in terms of things like chorus/vibrato). The CK has a choice of Leslie emulations, I think one is the one in the Reface. I think Genos has the weakest sim because it has a more limited effects architecture (e.g. I don't think you can apply the rotary effect and overdrive effects simultaneously).

 

The YC61/73/88 organ emulation is unique among Yamahas, and its best rotary sim is not in any other board except the new Montage M.

 

Official references to "Organ Flutes"...

 

https://usa.yamaha.com/products/music_production/stagekeyboards/ck/specs.html

 

https://www.yamaha.com/en/about/innovation/collection/detail/2108/

 

https://usa.yamaha.com/products/musical_instruments/keyboards/arranger_workstations/genos/specs.html

 

 

[konaboy]

I think the organ flutes model on Genos is different because it also handles simulations of theatre and home organs. Genos 2 had no updates in the organ/rotary department.

 

the YC series got a brand new rotary sim in v2 of the firmware. This rotary was ported to Montage M.

 

The tonewheel organ emulation on the YC is not available on any other model.  Many Genos owners were hoping to see it ported on the G2, but no.

 

The reface YC and CK share the same tonewheel organ and leslie sim.

 

 

[pjd]

Hi --

I've written a mess o' articles about MODX and Genos/PSR rotary sim, etc.

 

https://sandsoftwaresound.net/modx-drawbar-control-part-1/
https://sandsoftwaresound.net/modx-drawbar-waveforms-part-2/
https://sandsoftwaresound.net/modx-drawbar-overdrive-part-3/
https://sandsoftwaresound.net/modx-overdrive-slight-return-part-4/
https://sandsoftwaresound.net/modx-rotary-speaker-part-5/
https://sandsoftwaresound.net/yamaha-modx-gospel-organ/
https://sandsoftwaresound.net/critique-genos-drawbar-organ/

 

I also play Reface YC. I don't believe Yamaha did anything really special with Reface YC. I can recreate Reface YC on MODX; Genos not so much.

 

It is possible to put overdrive in front of rotary sim on Genos and other mid- to high-end Yamaha arranger keyboards. It takes a little effort to work around the "Organ Flutes" routing and the effect order may not be "correct", i.e., overdrive after rotation.

 

Like others, I'm tired of Yamaha botching this up. Leaving the VCM rotary sim out of a $5,700 premium keyboard is a SIN and killed the Genos2 value proposition for me.

 

I'm looking to ditch Reface YC in favor of Hammond M-Solo. At 72, I might die before Yamaha gets this right. Yeah, I'm that PO'ed.

 

Good on ya 🙃 -- pj

[AnotherScott]

4 hours ago, pjd said:

I don't believe Yamaha did anything really special with Reface YC. I can recreate Reface YC on MODX; Genos not so much.

 

Hmm. I don't have Reface, but I have CK61 which should be the same in this respect. On the MODX, if I use the "All 9 Bars!" Performance to give me 9-drawbar control, I will run out of polyphony quite quickly (since each keypress uses something like 11 instances of polyphony); on the YC's organ (and I assume on the Reface YC), I appear to have "unlimited" polyphony. That is, I can play all 61 organ notes (with sustain pedal) without a drop out. Also, on the CK, I can play all those notes and still have the usual polypyhony available for non-organ AWM2 sounds, whereas on the MODX, the organ polyphony steals from the available polyphony for the other AWM2 sounds. And also, I think all the drawbar tones on the CK are phase-aligned, which would not be the case with the MODX implementation.

 

4 hours ago, pjd said:

It is possible to put overdrive in front of rotary sim on Genos and other mid- to high-end Yamaha arranger keyboards. It takes a little effort to work around the "Organ Flutes" routing and the effect order may not be "correct", i.e., overdrive after rotation.

 

Good to know that there is at least some facility for this.

 

Another difference in these "organ flutes" tonewheel emulations is in the percussion and CV. The CK has all the standard B3 settings. Reface YC is missing some of them, and Genos is missing even more, IIRC.

[miden]

On 11/20/2023 at 10:30 AM, GovernorSilver said:

Seems like the person who is thinking of swapping his Pa5X for a Genos 2 or MontageM  (posted page 1 I think) might want to reconsider then... if deeper voice editing is a high priority for him and he doesn't want to give up arranger features.

 

I assumed a Nautilus would be superior to the Pa5X for jobs that require deep synthesis - if we're comparing Korg to Korg, but maybe I'm wrong on that front too.

 

 

Yeah that would be me, and it's true it is pretty deep but very VERY convoluted! There are some controller hiccups as well, for example you cannot "reverse" the expression as you can on some synths...so one can fade in one instrument and fade in a second simply by reversion the pedal. TBH, I've only ever really seen it on Kurzweil. Means a bit of button swapping, which at home is fine, but on stage with a dancing crowd, it can get a bit "untidy".

 

Still have not made any choices yet really.

[GovernorSilver]

1 hour ago, miden said:

 

 

Yeah that would be me, and it's true it is pretty deep but very VERY convoluted! There are some controller hiccups as well, for example you cannot "reverse" the expression as you can on some synths...so one can fade in one instrument and fade in a second simply by reversion the pedal. TBH, I've only ever really seen it on Kurzweil. Means a bit of button swapping, which at home is fine, but on stage with a dancing crowd, it can get a bit "untidy".

 

Still have not made any choices yet really.

 

Thanks for clarifying.

 

I'm guessing Genos 2 is not looking as attractive as before, compared to Pa5X, with the revelations about the VCM rotary sim missing and other limitations posted by pjd and others.