Weighted, semi-weighted, or synth action keyboard?

[Synthaholic]

My favorite action was the Roland A-70 MIDI Controller, with the textured black keys. I'm definitely an organ/synth action guy, since I've never owned a real piano in my life and grew up playing Hammond and Wurlitzer organs.

[Delaware Dave]

17 hours ago, JamieT said:

To the best of my knowledge, there are no MIDI keyboard controllers currently manufactured with waterfall action. You can get an organ (e.g., Hammond XK series), but apparently there is no market for organ MIDI controllers.  

 

The DMC122 is an organ controller with waterfall keybeds and is currently manufactured.

[octa]

depends on the repertoire but, like others have said, it's easier to play piano on semi-weighted than organ on weighted. NS2 compact was my single board for 10 or so years. 

[AnotherScott]

47 minutes ago, octa said:

depends on the repertoire but, like others have said, it's easier to play piano on semi-weighted than organ on weighted. 

Yes, repertoire (and the associated required playing style/techniques) can make a big difference, in how well you can play a piano part on a non-hammer action or in how well you can play an organ part on a hammer action.

 

Though also, some actions are more amenable to be being played for the "wrong" use than others. I found the Vox Continental, Kurzweil PC4-7, Yamaha YC61 non-hammer actions pretty playable for pianos... enough so that I might even prefer them to some of (subjectively) worst hammer actions I've played from. And some hammer actions are reasonably playable for organs (e.g. any TP/40L-based Kurzweil, Kawai MP7, Yamaha YC73). And OTOH, some models of the semi-weighted Kurzweil SP4-7 were quite poor for organ (though above average for piano), because the edges of the keys were too sharp. So you can't even always assume that every hammer action is better than every non-hammer action for piano, or that every non-hammer action is better than every hammer action for organ!

[franky64]

23 hours ago, JamieT said:

I agree. I use a CT-S1 the same way (it has the same keybed as the CT-S500). I like the color options available with the CT-S1. I would describe the action as semi-weighted because it has some resistance when you press on the keys. I like the textured surface on the keys too (high-gloss keys are very slippery). Do you use the 1/4 inch audio outs on your CT-S500? 

CT-S1 is un-weighted. Weighted have per definition a 'key-weight' (a metal plate fixed into each key' - theoretically one could also produce 'heavier keys without weights just by filling the key ends with 10-20 gramm plastic material  - but afaik this does not exist as it would require completely different molds).
The Casios have slighly 'stiffer' synth-actions, with the keys themself being 'light'.
The feel between an unweighted and semi-weighted is very different though - this is simple Newton physics (momentum, inertia ... )
In the last years it happens more and more often that manufacturers delcare un-weighted as 'semi-weighted' - this is only for marketing reasons (it recently happened with Yamaha YC and CK - which are both unweighted keys) - frankly speaking it's a marketing lie. 

[JamieT]

2 hours ago, Delaware Dave said:

 

The DMC122 is an organ controller with waterfall keybeds and is currently manufactured.

I do not see a new DMC122 for sale (available) at any online retailer. On every site I have checked It is either listed as "no longer available" or "backordered." 

[JamieT]

21 minutes ago, franky64 said:

CT-S1 is un-weighted. Weighted have per definition a 'key-weight' (a metal plate fixed into each key' - theoretically one could also produce 'heavier keys without weights just by filling the key ends with 10-20 gramm plastic material  - but afaik this does not exist as it would require completely different molds).
The Casios have slighly 'stiffer' synth-actions, with the keys themself being 'light'.
The feel between an unweighted and semi-weighted is very different though - this is simple Newton physics (momentum, inertia ... )
In the last years it happens more and more often that manufacturers delcare un-weighted as 'semi-weighted' - this is only for marketing reasons (it recently happened with Yamaha YC and CK - which are both unweighted keys) - frankly speaking it's a marketing lie. 

While your definition makes sense, It is contrary to almost everything else that I have read. See https://hub.yamaha.com/pianos/p-digital/a-quick-guide-to-weighted-keys/  and https://pianotone.ca/fully-weighted-vs-semi-weighted/  and https://www.sweetwater.com/insync/keyboard-actions-explained/ etc. Are all of these sites wrong?

[Ibarch]

I use a single weighted keyboard for playing pianos, synths and the occasional organ patch. I think that I am playing the synths and organs well enough but all this talk about having second unweighted boards is raising some doubts. I learned classical piano to a decent standard as a kid and have always preferred weighted keybeds to synth style keys. 

 

Can synths be played properly on weighted keys or am I missing out something fundamental? Do others play synths on weighted keys too? 

 

What difference does having waterfall keys make to synth style keys when playing organ? 

 

Sorry if these seem stupid questions but these are the ones I never dared ask before. 

 

 

[franky64]

1 hour ago, JamieT said:

While your definition makes sense, It is contrary to almost everything else that I have read. See https://hub.yamaha.com/pianos/p-digital/a-quick-guide-to-weighted-keys/  and https://pianotone.ca/fully-weighted-vs-semi-weighted/  and https://www.sweetwater.com/insync/keyboard-actions-explained/ etc. Are all of these sites wrong?

Roland states (Roland Shermany ' Piano knowhow') : half-weighted  = 'normal keys' PLUS key-weights. Afair this is what the 'common understanding' is since decades  
Me seems those definitions of halfweighted as 'with stiffer springs' or 'different escapment' are extremly diffuse and unprecise.
Probably more of a marketing buzzwording effort to attribute (cheap) unweighted 'piano-styled' bugdet keyboards some 'additional value' and dilute the fundamental difference between a spring action and a hammer action.
 

[octa]

1 hour ago, Ibarch said:

Can synths be played properly on weighted keys or am I missing out something fundamental? Do others play synths on weighted keys too? 

 

What difference does having waterfall keys make to synth style keys when playing organ? 

 

With the bands I've played with, it's rare that what the song requires on a synth/organ couldn't be pulled off on a weighted action. But there's no doubt that the lack of resistance on semi or non-weighted actions does allow for faster playing. Except for there often being no aftertouch on waterfall keyboards, the action feels very much like a synth action to me. 

[nadroj]

Semi-weighted is my favourite for live work (particularly waterfall) though I'll practice on both weighted and semi-weighted at home.

 

There are some tunes I play live where I'd love a weighted board, but it's not worth the extra schelp for me just now. If my hammond dies I'd be looking at a weighted/semi-weighted live setup.

 

I grew up playing a mini-piano that essentially had semi-weighted keys. First time I touched a real grand piano with real, heavy weighted keys I almost shit myself. I struggled doing piano exams on them at college. I can play nice notes, but I struggle to get nuance out of a real piano.

 

So I'm in this weird place where I'm not really a pianist, and also not an organist, but not a synth player either.

[AnotherScott]

6 hours ago, franky64 said:

In the last years it happens more and more often that manufacturers delcare un-weighted as 'semi-weighted' - this is only for marketing reasons (it recently happened with Yamaha YC and CK - which are both unweighted keys) - frankly speaking it's a marketing lie. 

 

Yamaha definitely calls the YC61 action semiweighted. I can't speak to whether or not there is actually weight added to the key, though what leads you to believe it does not? The CK61 is more ambiguous... I have seen it referenced both ways, and the official product page makes no reference either way to whether it is unweighted or semiweighted. In fact, as I've alluded to elsewhere, I'm curious as to just how much difference there is between these actions, what there may be besides the obvious difference in shape (waterfall vs. non), as I've seen people make assertions about this. But definitive info is hard to come by.

 

6 hours ago, JamieT said:

While your definition makes sense, It is contrary to almost everything else that I have read. See https://hub.yamaha.com/pianos/p-digital/a-quick-guide-to-weighted-keys/  and https://pianotone.ca/fully-weighted-vs-semi-weighted/  and https://www.sweetwater.com/insync/keyboard-actions-explained/ etc. Are all of these sites wrong?

 

I'd say Yamaha's explanation is correct, but incomplete. It says:
 

Quote

 

most entry-level digital keyboards and synthesizers have unweighted keys. However, some intermediate models offer a semi-weighted action. These instruments incorporate spring-action keys with more resistance than those found in an unweighted keyboard

 

 

Yes, that's all true... but I believe there's an omission, they left out that the keys also have weights added (and related, at least to some extent, the reason the springs have to have more tension on them is because they are manipulating a heavier key). But this may get back to the first thing I said in this post... whether or not Yamaha has ever actually made what they called a semi-weighted action without the keys actually having any weight added. Or whether anyone has. Are there any real-world examples of semiweighted boards that have no weights? I don't think that's the case, but I'm open to be proven wrong, if anyone has such an example.

 

From this perspective again, I'd say Sweetwater's explanation is close.  They say:

 

Quote

The “semi” prefix might seem odd, but it’s a designation of the mechanism used to simulate weight rather than a declaration of how “much,” or to what degree, the keys are weighted. Like synth-action keys, semi-weighted keys are based on a spring-loaded system. Occasionally, they’ll incorporate smaller weights to add some heft, but the springs are implemented to add resistance.

 

Change "occasionally" to "always" and I think it's right. And one thing to think about here is, what would it mean if it was truly only "occasionally"? It would mean that, on those other occasions, "like synth-action keys, semi-weighted keys are based on a spring-loaded system" -- in which case it sounds like you're left with no difference at all between synth-action (unweighted) and semi-weighted except for spring tension, and from everything I've seen, that's simply not the case.

 

But also, quite honestly, while Sweetwater may be above average in their expertise, I do not see them as a definitive source. Coincidentally, that very page has a link to a related article, "Definitive Digital Piano Keyboard Touch Experiment" whose flaws have been discussed here before. I also don't see pianotone.ca as a definitive source, though he has done some nice videos.

 

5 hours ago, Ibarch said:

Can synths be played properly on weighted keys or am I missing out something fundamental? Do others play synths on weighted keys too? 

 

Some may disagree, but I think synth can be played fine either way. But if you're into "shredding" style on a synth, you'll get better speed on a non-hammer action. OTOH, if you're using synth sounds where you really want touch/velocity to provide more subtle dynamic control over the sounds, I think you'd actually be better off with a hammer action.

 

5 hours ago, Ibarch said:

What difference does having waterfall keys make to synth style keys when playing organ? 

 

Waterfall is about shape, not resistance or weight. If you use the common organ technique of "smearing" along the front edges of the keys, the waterfall shape facilitates that. Waterfall keys are also going to be "soft edged" (slightly rounded) along the edges as well, which helps with other kinds of smears, though many non-waterfall actions are similarly soft-edged at the sides as well.

[Delaware Dave]

3 hours ago, JamieT said:

I do not see a new DMC122 for sale (available) at any online retailer. On every site I have checked It is either listed as "no longer available" or "backordered." 

well, backordered means it's not discontinued.  ever hear of the chip shortage?

https://www.genuinesoundware.com/?a=showproduct&b=42

 

[franky64]

1 hour ago, AnotherScott said:

 

Yamaha definitely calls the YC61 action semiweighted. I can't speak to whether or not there is actually weight added to the key, though what leads you to believe it does not?

no believe - YC61 keys have no weights added. It's a 'simplistic plastic hinge' action (no springs).

[franky64]

2 hours ago, Delaware Dave said:

well, backordered means it's not discontinued.  ever hear of the chip shortage?

https://www.genuinesoundware.com/?a=showproduct&b=42

 

 seems it's discontinued. One still can find some NOS (in Europe) though.
An alternative is a 2nd hand StudioLogic VMK-161 'Waterfall' which is sold at (european) 2nd hand portals for ca. 200 bucks: first-gen Fatar TP/8o (longer keys than actual TP/8o), no organ high trigger.

[AnotherScott]

27 minutes ago, franky64 said:

no believe - YC61 keys have no weights added. It's a 'simplistic plastic hinge' action (no springs).

Interesting point! Those "grouped assembly" keys can be unweighted, and they can be "fully" weighted (i.e. used in conjunction with hammers, as they are on all Yamaha's GHS boards)... but is it even possible for them to be semi-weighted (i.e. have additional weight added to the keys)? Would it require a different design to the hinge assembly? I'm curious as to whether anyone knows of any other grouped-key-assembly boards that are marketed as semi-weighted.

[Chris Link]

On 11/2/2023 at 10:44 AM, CEB said:

What is an example of a semi weighted board?  I have played electronic keyboards since I got my Farfisa Compact. I’m not clear on when unweighted ends and semi weighted starts. 
 

As far as preferences, it depends on what I’m playing. Organ has to have an organ action. Synth stuff depends on its nature.  Piano parts require piano action.   The technique mechanics of the playing styles are different. 

A Nord Electro is an example of a semi-weighted keyboard. It’s feels more like a piano but can also work for non-velocity-sensitive organ playing. 
 

Personally, I like to play acoustic piano on a weighted KB (Yamaha P-105) with a NE 5D 73 for organ and the few other sounds I need. 
 

But when space and/or time is tight (like tonight when we were the middle of three bands), I can easily do the gig with just the Electro. I even managed to play “New York State Of Mind” and “Beat Me Daddy Eight To The Bar” on a semi-weighted 73. The former requires some subtlety, but the latter is just pedal to the metal honky tonk. 
 

Is it ideal? No, but it’s a quick set up and tear down so I’m not the guy who’s holding things up. But having two is also nice to be able to go back and forth between piano and organ without having to use a split and have even less range. And I wouldn’t want to play a solo jazz or piano/vocal gig on the NE, but it’s a great split-the-difference compromise sort of instrument. 
 

Did anyone other than me even notice tonight? I really doubt it. 
 

Short answer to the OP: The best option is two boards, but something like the NE can suffice unless you absolutely cannot tolerate playing piano on something other than hammer action weighted keys. 

 

[AnotherScott]

4 minutes ago, Chris Link said:

A Nord Electro is an example of a semi-weighted keyboard

Depends on the Electro. 😉 The "HP" models are hammer action, not semiweighted.

[SteveCoscia]

These years, I have settled on a weighted 88 (Casio PX-560M), a synth 61 (Casio MZ-X500) and a synth 37 (Behringer Poly D).

 

The PX-560M is the best weighted action keyboard I've ever had. 

 

The second best was an ARP 4 Voice piano from 1980.  The ARP's wooden keys were a dream and the piano sound was warm.  Mine had the updated membrane switches.  This forum is critical of the APR's noisy output for good reason.  But all things considered, it was a decent keyboard for the time.  

[AUSSIEKEYS]

14 minutes ago, SteveCoscia said:

 

 

The second best was an ARP 4 Voice piano from 1980.  The ARP's wooden keys were a dream and the piano sound was warm. 

I loved my Arp 4 voice and although large it was so much lighter than my Yammy CP30 it replaced and sounded much better.

 

It could sit my vox jaguar on top as well with a rear gantry so it had great real estate on top. 

 

I too have a casio the PX330 and happy with feel for gigging

[Chris Link]

10 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

Depends on the Electro. 😉 The "HP" models are hammer action, not semiweighted.

Yes.  

[Artomas]

There are things I prefer the Volca touch strip for (mostly for legato patch flipping with percussion patches), and things I only could do with a Continuum (very bendy sounds, like strings, and I'm trying to do lap steel style playing, which sounds so MIDI when I attempt it with a keyboard and pitch wheel).

 

Otherwise, I'll happily take a Yamaha GHS or BHS in exchange for portability. For faster stuff, I think I'd like Korg's "natural touch" synth keys (Kronos etc) in a waterfall shape. I like that key action, for faster playing... but for that type of playing, I have weird technique that would be freer if I didn't have to be conscious of lips and gaps and sharp edges on keys. However, I'm no virtuoso, and I don't need perfect conditions. It's actually probably for the best, if the shape of the keys keeps me from Sun Ra-ing the keyboard too hard or too often. I already screw around too much as it is. But that would be close to my ideal synth/organ keyboard (Korg natural touch waterfall). I've tried the recent Vox Continental - it's nice, but those keys aren't exactly what I'm talking about. Still, if that had to be my non-piano board, I wouldn't complain.

[JamieT]

Would anyone consider using one or two Xkey keyboards as a substitute for a waterfall action keyboard (since there are no MIDI controllers currently sold with this action)? The keys only travel a few millimeters, but they are full size and have rounded edges on all three sides which should facilitate palm smears and other organ playing techniques.  Xkeys only are available in 25 and 37 key versions (boo) but perhaps two 37-key Xkeys could be configured as small upper and lower manuals? 

[jpgxk3]

A friend of mine sent me this today, interesting board. I have no affiliation with this outfit. 

https://playvidal.com/products/vidal

[David Emm]

9 hours ago, JamieT said:

Would anyone consider using one or two Xkey keyboards as a substitute for a waterfall action keyboard (since there are no MIDI controllers currently sold with this action)? The keys only travel a few millimeters, but they are full size and have rounded edges on all three sides which should facilitate palm smears and other organ playing techniques.  Xkeys only are available in 25 and 37 key versions (boo) but perhaps two 37-key Xkeys could be configured as small upper and lower manuals? 

 

I mostly play one of these into Logic now (iffy hands), but its hard to see them as organ manuals unless you massage your playing style into >their< shape. You'd probably have to turn your palm smears into middle-finger smears. The flat form factor could be either a plus or a minus. They've served me quite well, but its a right-tool-for-the-job decision. They allow me to do decent piano runs or Mellotron chords, so I don't feel at all hindered. I even figured out how to get passable pitch bends with that ARP-y (PPP) button. 

 

I started on piano but eventually ended up loving things in the semi-weighted category. The D-50 had/has the keyboard of the gods, being both fast and creamy. My piano skills have been right at home with everything but the flabbiest cheapo actions, so I'm luckier than a serious pianist who groans at each new wannabe DP. My advice: when you find an instrument or controller that hits the mark, buy three of them! It'll save you some grief one day.

[TJ Cornish]

I’m still on the fence about a Montage M. My main rig is a Roland Fantom 7 with Hammond XK-5, and I quite like the Fantom 7 keyboard - it’s stiff enough to not give me accuracy problems but light and soft enough that I don’t bleed if I do a bit of organ sliding. I don’t love the size or weight of the M8x keyboard and thought hard about the Montage M7, but Yamaha’s oddly smaller keys I just know will bug me, so if I get a Montage, it will be the big dog, and not for the poly aftertouch that everyone else seems to be drooling over.

[stoken6]

12 hours ago, David Emm said:

The D-50 had/has the keyboard of the gods

How true.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[Tom Williams]

My current rig is a semi-weighted 76 key Kurzweil PC4-7 on top; and a semi-weighted Nektar Impact GXP88 controller underneath.  Although I like My Casio PX-5S's piano better than my Kurzweils, the action is too heavy for my aging wimpy forearms in even a 2 hour gig.  The Nektar's action works well for me, and it has channel aftertouch to boot.

 

If Kurzweil's PC4 were available in a 61 key synth action, I would switch to it in a heartbeat.  The lightweight action on my PC3 is fine.

 

[Sundown]

I prefer at least the two extremes … A solid 88-key weighted action and a light synth-action board. I’m a home studio rat so nothing moves or travels. If I’m truly honest with myself, I could still produce my music with just a synth action. My piano parts feel good with a weighted action, but the listener couldn’t care less.

 

I use a Kawai MP11 for my 88-board and I primarily use a Kurzweil PC361 for my main synth controller. I have a Roland D-20 above it that I keep for nostalgia/sentimental value and I use it for some drum parts, very fast leads, and some organ parts, particularly palm smears. It has a very quick key return and a velocity curve I know well. The Kurz just feels good for many parts and I can quickly adjust it’s sensitivity and behavior.

 

My Kurz gets way more use than my MP11 right now. It’s just quick to lay down parts and I really only use the MP11 for piano and electric piano. When I see dudes playing organ parts or synth leads on a weighted action I’m always amazed. I couldn’t do it … My fingers or my mindset isn’t there.

 

I will say that my preferences leave me in the cold with many new boards. I have no intention of replacing my MP11 for a very long time, and I don’t want another weighted board … I love that Kurzweil has offered some newer boards (Forte, PC4, K2700), but they are all furniture. Give me a rack, a table top, or at least a 61-key or 76-key synth action variant. I simply won’t buy another 88-key instrument and I don’t want a semi-weighted board either.

 

I like that Yamaha still offers their flagship in three flavors (a trend I believe started with the Korg T-series in ~1989). You can get the 61, the 76, or weighted 88. That makes a lot of sense to me …

 

Todd

 

 

 

 

 

[stoken6]

4 hours ago, Sundown said:

I like that Yamaha still offers their flagship in three flavors (a trend I believe started with the Korg T-series in ~1989). You can get the 61, the 76, or weighted 88. That makes a lot of sense to me …

'Twas not always thus. We're in a bit of a golden age of 7x boards. A few years ago, there was no budget (DS, MX) or midrange (FA, MOX) from Roland or Yamaha. 

 

Cheers, Mike.