Why no drawbars in Korg Module?

[Paul Woodward]

I probably know the answer already, but why does Korg Module not offer drawbars. You have some basic settings and presets, but no drawbars. Even GarageBand has drawbars and it’s free!

I already paid for Module Pro and the organ IAP so it’s not too much to ask. I don’t want to spend £120 on the Hammond app. Hell, I don’t even want to buy another organ app.

C’mon Korg, a CX3 within Module could be a game changer but at least give us some drawbars…

 

rant over

[Paul Woodward]

Link here to request new features if anyone fancies ganging up on, err I mean persuading, Korg to make this app a bit more ‘pro’…

https://support.korguser.net/hc/en-us/requests/new

Just be sure to register first or it bounces you back.

[drawback]

I was an early user who requested split-bass ability in the app review, which must have become a chorus because they eventually adopted it (albeit not as freeform as we’re used to). 
 

Thanks for the link. I’ll add a request for drawbars and more editing functions. You never know

[Paul Woodward]

9 minutes ago, clawback said:

I was an early user who requested split-bass ability in the app review, which must have become a chorus because they eventually adopted it (albeit not as freeform as we’re used to). 
 

Thanks for the link. I’ll add a request for drawbars and more editing functions. You never know

Great, I wonder if an update is due to the app. Last major version was 3 years ago now. Lots changed in the world of IOS or ipadOS so potential for some nice improvements. 

[ElmerJFudd]

Module is sample based either way, yes? If you can get the timbres out of it you need shifting presets, a rompler organ will get you through the night. Has Korg put CX3 into an iOS app? 

[Paul Woodward]

Just now, ElmerJFudd said:

Module is sample based either way, yes? If you can get the timbres out of it you need shifting presets, a rompler organ will get you through the night. Has Korg put CX3 into an iOS app? 

No, and I often wonder why they haven't. Maybe because they have organs in Module. It has limited presets and none reference the settings other than names like 'all drawbar out'. Garageband is likely the same sample based but has drawbar? 

[Paul Woodward]

As for samples, Native Engine derived from tech developed for their workstations apparently. 

[ElmerJFudd]

Ah hah!  
 

i still see people mention the usual suspects like Galileo Organ 2.  GSi brought over VB3m.  you know of any others? 

[Paul Woodward]

Just now, ElmerJFudd said:

Ah hah!  
 

i still see people mention the usual suspects like Galileo Organ 2.  GSi brought over VB3m.  you know of any others? 

The Hammond app, £120 though. I'm sure it's amazing but you can buy a used ipad for that... 

 

[ElmerJFudd]

That’s right!  I have used it on macOS.  If it sounds the same, I have to say it is quite good.  
 

So is the Hammond clone in Logic Pro - I’m not sure if the full version if that is in Garage Band for iOS or the Logic Pro App for iOS (which is a subscription, funk that).  

[jerrythek]

14 minutes ago, Paul Woodward said:

Garageband is likely the same sample based but has drawbar? 

GarageBand uses the same instruments as Logic, and that organ is modeled, so it’s easy to provide drawbar control. Sample-based instruments don’t tend to offer it because it’s very difficult to combine multiple samples of drawbars without phase issues and other difficulties. I recall only Emu being able to develop a sample-based organ (module) that did it successfully. 
 

Yes, KORG would do well to move their CX-3 engine into their software offerings. It may not be “king of the hill” but it’s “in the game”. 

[brenner13]

I’ve no idea about coding, but can imagine drawbars are quite elaborate. Especially from a sample based program. Plenty of other iOS organs out there; VB3m is quite the bang for buck, but can understand the desire to have an all-in-one app.

[Paul Woodward]

Just thinking about the Keystage due for launch (sometime) and none of the Korg apps currently respond to Poly Aftertouch. The Moog apps (once all free) do as does GarageBand. Given they are likely eyeing up IOS integration with that board, it would be a massive oversight for Korg not to update their apps at the same time. Module must be due for some new quality of life features and I would love to see it get the same kind of ‘plug in’ support that Gadget has. It certainly won’t affect their profits as you still need to buy the individual apps. A CX3 app would then fit the bill nicely.

[Paul Woodward]

5 hours ago, jerrythek said:

GarageBand uses the same instruments as Logic, and that organ is modeled, so it’s easy to provide drawbar control. Sample-based instruments don’t tend to offer it because it’s very difficult to combine multiple samples of drawbars without phase issues and other difficulties. I recall only Emu being able to develop a sample-based organ (module) that did it successfully. 
 

Yes, KORG would do well to move their CX-3 engine into their software offerings. It may not be “king of the hill” but it’s “in the game”. 

Assuming the engines in Module are sample-based which is quite likely. Come to think of it, are the organs modelled on the Kronos?

[jerrythek]

8 hours ago, Paul Woodward said:

Assuming the engines in Module are sample-based which is quite likely. Come to think of it, are the organs modelled on the Kronos?

Yes, the organ in the Oasys/Kronos/Nautilus/Vox Continental/Grandstage are modeled.

[kenheeter]

VB3M.  $15.00.

[D. Gauss]

1 hour ago, kenheeter said:

VB3M.  $15.00.

This.

[yannis D]

1 hour ago, kenheeter said:

VB3M.  $15.00.

Yep

[AnotherScott]

17 hours ago, jerrythek said:

GarageBand uses the same instruments as Logic, and that organ is modeled, so it’s easy to provide drawbar control. Sample-based instruments don’t tend to offer it because it’s very difficult to combine multiple samples of drawbars without phase issues and other difficulties.

 

Also, the "ordinary" sampling approach applied to a drawbar-controllable organ would require each tone to use an instance of polyphony. So a 9-drawbar sound would use 9 instances of polyphony for each key, plus whatever additional sounds you may want, e.g. key click, leakage/crosstalk. Montage/MODX have an organ patch that is implemented that way.

 

 

17 hours ago, jerrythek said:

I recall only Emu being able to develop a sample-based organ (module) that did it successfully. 

 

Hammond used samples up to a few years ago (e.g. VASE III in the SK series that preceded the SK Pro), but differently from the ordinary sample-based instrument approach. They used  phase-locked samples and some other "non-rompler style" implementation that has no polyphony issues for organ (separate from the more traditional "extra voices" section, which uses the typical sampling approach, with its own polyphony). I believe Yamaha does something similar in the CK and the Reface YC. Maybe in a way you could see this as a hybrid between modeling and sampling, since it "behaves" like a modeled system, but the raw tones are phase-locked samples rather than algorithmically generated? At any rate, it's not a system you could duplicate by simply layering 9 sampled drawbar tones in any of the sample-based workstation-style boards that lack their own dedicated organ engines.

 

[Paul Woodward]

Organs might well be modelled in Module…I’m hopeful that the Keystage launch (whenever that may be), will see an update to their apps. They tout Module as being for professional use so it needs a few updates.

[Paul Woodward]

47 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

 

Also, the "ordinary" sampling approach applied to a drawbar-controllable organ would require each tone to use an instance of polyphony.

Max poly in Module is determined by your hardware. 128 voices max I think. That was back on the original Air so they really need to update for current hardware. My M2 iPad Pro is a beast…

[ElmerJFudd]

53 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

 

Also, the "ordinary" sampling approach applied to a drawbar-controllable organ would require each tone to use an instance of polyphony. So a 9-drawbar sound would use 9 instances of polyphony for each key, plus whatever additional sounds you may want, e.g. key click, leakage/crosstalk. Montage/MODX have an organ patch that is implemented that way.

 

 

 

Hammond used samples up to a few years ago (e.g. VASE III in the SK series that preceded the SK Pro), but differently from the ordinary sample-based instrument approach. They used  phase-locked samples and some other "non-rompler style" implementation that has no polyphony issues for organ (separate from the more traditional "extra voices" section, which uses the typical sampling approach, with its own polyphony). I believe Yamaha does something similar in the CK and the Reface YC. Maybe in a way you could see this as a hybrid between modeling and sampling, since it "behaves" like a modeled system, but the raw tones are phase-locked samples rather than algorithmically generated? At any rate, it's not a system you could duplicate by simply layering 9 sampled drawbar tones in any of the sample-based workstation-style boards that lack their own dedicated organ engines.

 

You figure this is how B5 is doing it? 

[Paul Woodward]

3 hours ago, kenheeter said:

VB3M.  $15.00.

Really want to keep sounds and live sets within Module….

[AnotherScott]

2 hours ago, ElmerJFudd said:

You figure this is how B5 is doing it? 

No, I think they're doing the same kind of thing Hammond did withe VASE III.

 

I just checked their site, and here's how they describe it:

 

Quote

Hammond organs are complex beasts, full of wires and mechanical parts. Until now, the best renditions (short of a real organ) were made using pure synthesis, mainly because the organ works using a set of 91 frequencies that are connected via contactors under each key and whose volume is controlled by the drawbars. Sample-based libraries consist of stacking drawbar samples at the same time - this works, but causes a major problem: sometimes you play the same frequency twice and because of phase cancellation, you never get the same sound twice when you press the same keys. We created a way using the 91 frequencies synthesis approach - but with real samples - offering the opportunity to enjoy the best of both worlds: a real recorded organ tone plus the real mechanical behavior, but with the added benefits of functioning drawbar controls and synthesis tweakability.

 

So I think that explains why polyphony is not an issue. Basically, it sounds like it is generating all 91 underlying tones, all the time, and then the drawbars determine how much of each one of them you hear on any given key. That's the way the actual organs worked, and they're emulating that. In effect, the engine has 91 tone polyphony (plus ancillary stuff like click and leakage), and it is always "using" all 91 of the those tones, whether you play one note or 10, whether you have one drawbar out or all nine, it's just that the ones you haven't triggered (by virtue of which notes you played and which bars you've pulled out) are playing "silently" (i.e. with their volumes at zero). Probably all the products marketed as clonewheels use this basic approach, but on the purely modeled ones, there are no recordings, and the 91 tones are algorithmically generated, whereas on some (if not all) of these others I've mentioned (B5, VASE-based Hammonds, CK/Reface YC), the 91 tones themselves are sampled. 

[jerrythek]

4 hours ago, Paul Woodward said:

Organs might well be modelled in Module…

Nope. 

[jerrythek]

18 hours ago, jerrythek said:

22 hours ago, Paul Woodward said:

Organs might well be modelled in Module…

Nope. 

In the light of a new day, I realized that your comment could be interpreted another way... and I agree. The organs in Module might well should be modeled. 

[Paul Woodward]

4 hours ago, jerrythek said:

In the light of a new day, I realized that your comment could be interpreted another way... and I agree. The organs in Module might well should be modeled. 

My emoji was laughing at the blunt and honest response, not the answer. 
Korg responded with the usual

“Thank you for contacting us.
And thank you for using KORG Module!

We will share your request with our development team.
We will use it as a reference for future feature improvements and updates”…

[Paul Woodward]

The more I ponder Korg's road map for apps, the more I am puzzled. 

Gadget already allows most new and old Korg apps to be integrated and these (and more) added into other DAWs, even GarageBand. It's been three years since the last update and with Poly AT boards coming out, surely they are looking at a major update. 

Would love to see Module able to integrate other Korg Apps like Gadget does and a dedicated CX3 app along those lines. 

I have also submitted a request for aftertouch in apps given the new hardware coming out. 
The IOS market has changed a lot over the years and, if Module remains part of their future plans, it needs some new features adding, especially if pitched to be used with their new hardware. It’s just short of being essential at the moment.

Of course, an iPad MainStage and/or live sets and a ‘sound expansion’ mode added to Gadget would get round this.
 

 

 

[JamieT]

It seems to me that Korg has abandoned iPad development. Gadget 2 is their most recent app and it was launched in 2019(?). Everything else is even older. They have some wonderful synth apps but haven't updated them to support AUv3. It's very disappointing.  

[Paul Woodward]

2 hours ago, JamieT said:

It seems to me that Korg has abandoned iPad development. Gadget 2 is their most recent app and it was launched in 2019(?). Everything else is even older. They have some wonderful synth apps but haven't updated them to support AUv3. It's very disappointing.  

In fairness to Korg, they have made incremental improvements, added new IAPs and ported to other platforms. 

I agree that they need to up their IOS game though. If Mainstage comes to iPad, will likely be game over for Module.