DRAWBAR HARDWARE MODULE FOR B-3X

[HammondDave]

I am looking for a drawbar module that I can use on my MODX7 that will control B3X on my iPad. Any suggestions on units and where the hell to put it?  The  empty space on the right of the  MODX is where my iPad lives. 

[JamPro]

Ummm.....you are the one playing keys - and presumably manipulating drawbars.  Where do you want to put it?

 

I am thinking of selling my XK3: two sets of drawbars plus waterfall-style 60-note full sized organ-friendly keyboard.  You might enjoy your virtual organ experience controlling it from a clone keyboard.

[kenheeter]

D9X drawbar controller. 

[Delaware Dave]

D9x from crumar.  The most difficult piece tends to be the C/V control because typically the controls for the six C/V specific points is a combination of a constant CC value for each but a different and specific data value.  The D9x can be specifically programmed so that the C/V control on the drawbar unit will match that of B3x.  Expensive but worth it.

 

https://www.gmlab.it/. Then scroll down.

[Baldwin Funster]

Good thing about the d9x is its pre-programmed for vb3 and all varients so if you use the same CCs in b3x that Guido uses you can change apps and still be gold. 

 

Edit.

And btw the CCs in the d9x are

not easily reset by the user unless you are knowledgeable in arduino programming. 

[kenheeter]

But it's very easy to adjust the CCs in B3X. I built my D9X from the kit.  I really enjoyed that, it reminded me of building models in my youth. It's rock solid.

[elif]

Can the D9X be powered from the MIDI port?

[Delaware Dave]

41 minutes ago, elif said:

Can the D9X be powered from the MIDI port?

Yes, its powered via a micro usb port

[jpkeys]

I have a Voce MIDI Drawbar unit that I'd part with. It's MIDI DIN only, no USB. I don't have a MODX, but according to the manual you can route the MIDI IN DIN to the MIDI USB (MIDI Thru), so theoretically should work. PM me if interested.

[HammondDave]

The key is connecting it via USB C into the iPad hub….

[D. Gauss]

rare as hen's teeth, but if you look long and hard enough, you'll find one...

 

[davinwv]

I'm currently on the waitlist for the B-3X version of the Fosse Controller:

 

https://www.fossecontrollers.com/

[Baldwin Funster]

35 minutes ago, davinwv said:

I'm currently on the waitlist for the B-3X version of the Fosse Controller:

 

https://www.fossecontrollers.com/

I like the onboard rotary lever but other than that what is better about this than the d9x?

[ChazKeys]

7 hours ago, D. Gauss said:

rare as hen's teeth, but if you look long and hard enough, you'll find one...

 

This is fine for VB3 but not B3-x. The B4D uses the same CCs on separate Midi channels for Upper, Lower and Pedals. The CCs on current version of B3-x are fixed to a single MIdi channel.

I built a D9u when they first came out - good product. Since then I have built my own version which is more flexible. If you are OK with electronics and can find a set of old digital Hammond drawbars its a fun project. 

The D9 series send MIdi over USB as well as traditional Midi on a mini jack so you can connect to iPad or use it on say a Nord E5 to control the lower drawbars. The D9u has a tiny micro switch for Uoper and Lower drawbars which is hard to access. One of the improvements I made was to add a large rotary switch to select 4 sets - Upper AB and Lower AB. 

 

Power requirements are very low and will run off my iPhone or iPad using  a CCK - no need for a USB charger. 

 

Buying the D9U would be the simplest solution providing control of Upper and Lower drawbars plus 5pin and USB Midi.

https://www.gmlab.it/

 

BTW my iPad Mini fitted perfectly on the top of the D9u. 

[rogs]

I use my old Yamaha HC2 to control the B3x software, and being on low budget thought I'd try one of THESE as a MIDI controller. Only a cheap device (£40) but works really well.

9 drawbar faders, and the buttons and knobs can be configured to suit other controls, by changing the preprogrammed CC codes.  

I use it for all 6 vibrato and chorus settings (plus on and off)  - Percussion on and off -  Leslie speed and brake - 8 reverse key presets -  etc. All sent out on channel 16.

I Velcro it to the top left of the organ console (see photo).

 

I think that particular version is a UK item only, but it's the same device as this: https://www.worlde.com.cn/static/upload/file/20210318/1616046348187195.pdf  which seems to be available pretty much anywhere....

 

Not exactly 'top of the range', but it works well - and sure beats using the mouse on the screen with the PC version of B3x!  

[Delaware Dave]

10 hours ago, davinwv said:

I'm currently on the waitlist for the B-3X version of the Fosse Controller:

 

https://www.fossecontrollers.com/

The fosse controller is $530 USD and is programmed specifically for B3x.  The D9x is 1/2 the price and is arduino based so that it can be programmed to control whatever you want to control and how you want it controlled.  My two cents.

 

 

 

 

 

[davinwv]

28 minutes ago, Delaware Dave said:

The fosse controller is $530 USD and is programmed specifically for B3x.  The D9x is 1/2 the price and is arduino based so that it can be programmed to control whatever you want to control and how you want it controlled.  My two cents.

 

 

 

 

 

What Dave said. I believe the build quality to be better than the D9X. Also, the Fosse has dedicated controls for the stomps in B-3X.

[stoken6]

1 hour ago, rogs said:

one of THESE as a MIDI controller.

At least it has 9 drawbars, unlike the current Korg Nanocontrol.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[Baldwin Funster]

2 hours ago, davinwv said:

What Dave said. I believe the build quality to be better than the D9X. Also, the Fosse has dedicated controls for the stomps in B-3X.

There are some CCs for some of the b3x stomps like greenscreamer on/off but no CCs listed for level or tone on the pedal. Does the fosse access those other controls? What midi commands does it use to get those controls and how can I map those midi commands to my roland a800?

It's probably beyond the scope of this thread but if anybody knows...

[rogs]

1 hour ago, stoken6 said:

At least it has 9 drawbars, unlike the current Korg Nanocontrol.

 

Cheers, Mike.

Yes, for the money it's pretty good..... 8 fader controllers don't really cut it when it comes to controlling Hammond  clones...  

 

OK, it's a bit 'cheap and cheerful' compared to some of the other controllers being describd here, but it's fully programmable, so it can control quite a lot of functions.

Even the (non pogrammable) rotary switch (top left) sends out program control codes which can be used to select presets!

 

If you can afford to wait for IK to have one of their (apparantely random) sales, the software is only about £50, as I recall. 

Using a Yamaha MIDI enabled spinet organ from the 90s as  a controller (usually around £50 on Ebay) and we're talking a really cost effective 'clonewheel' organ...

Organs - like the HC2 I'm using - do not use velocity sensitive keyboards, and they're not weighted at all.... So a light, fast, organ action also helps to improve the package.

Nearest I've ever come to owning a real M.102.  ( The M series organs were often called the 'baby B' -- Not quite a B3 sound wise - but close!    )

 

[ChazKeys]

I am interested in these Yamaha organs as they do seem a neat alternative. Does it trigger at the high point? Of course another keyboard based alternative is the Roland A800 Pro. I had one for a while and it was great for B3-x and VB3. 9 faders and big chunky drum pads for Vibrato and Percussion tabs. Very fast and light avtion too.

[rogs]

4 hours ago, ChazKeys said:

I am interested in these Yamaha organs as they do seem a neat alternative. Does it trigger at the high point? Of course another keyboard based alternative is the Roland A800 Pro. I had one for a while and it was great for B3-x and VB3. 9 faders and big chunky drum pads for Vibrato and Percussion tabs. Very fast and light avtion too.

It's not a particularly high trigger point -- about half way down the  key travel  -  (about 5mm measured at the very front of the key - Total key travel is about 10mm)

 

But it's an organ action.... It's not 'semi weighted'  or anything like that. And there is only the one contact point....  It's light and fast.

 

Two other quick points.....  My HC2 dates from around 1990. The price at that time was around £900, which was not cheap then!

Back in that era key actions did not seem to rely so much on  moulded key clusters, and seemed to 'feel' much better than many modern key actions..... ( Subjective opinion of course.)

I've routed the B3X through my other keyboards to compare.... The HC2 is easier and 'faster' than either my MOX6 or YC61  -- and of course much faster than my weighted P.105!

 

One other thing  that some folk find important -- others don't. 

The HC2 has 'standard' Yamaha synth width keys which - at 159mm per ocatave - are slightly smaller than the more common 164mm octave found on most keybeds (and on Yamaha weighted  piano actions).

Nobody seems to know quite why Yamaha have chosen to make their synth and organ keys slighty narrower than normal? - but they have!

Doesn't bother me - in fact, I think I prefer it, now I'm used to it.

 

Simple MIDI output structure on these older organs --  Channel 1: upper keys --  Channel 2: lower keys -- Channel:3 pedals.

Which suits the B3X perfectly

The MIDI controller is programmed for channel 16 for the control  CC  code outputs.

Also, by sheer luck the 5 preset 'Registration Memory' keys also output the Program Change MIDI codes for addressing the B3X presets 1 thru 5..... Very useful!

 

So, when used together with this simple programmable MIDI controller, you can create a very usable 'clonewheel' spinet, without needing to adjust B3X parameters 'on screen'

And quite cheaply as well - which is nice!   

 

 

 

[Baldwin Funster]

5 hours ago, ChazKeys said:

I am interested in these Yamaha organs as they do seem a neat alternative. Does it trigger at the high point? Of course another keyboard based alternative is the Roland A800 Pro. I had one for a while and it was great for B3-x and VB3. 9 faders and big chunky drum pads for Vibrato and Percussion tabs. Very fast and light avtion too.

I'm using the A800pro with b3x. That's the main core of my rig right now. 9 sliders for drawbars. Lots of buttons and knobs to switch on CV and percussion. The expression pedal jack has an upper and lower setting for CCs perfect for a swell pedal. The hold jack works perfect for a half-moon.  The action is typical Roland synth action so its decent for organ. Trigger point is about medium, not too low but not particularly high either. Good editor.

It also has narrower than a grand piano width keys. It took me about 2 weeks to get used to it. And they cost less than the Fosse drawbar controller with mostly the same controls and a keybed thrown in.

The A800pro and d9x matched with b3x is about as clonewheely as you need to get.

[Piktor]

On 9/25/2023 at 1:40 PM, jpkeys said:

I have a Voce MIDI Drawbar unit that I'd part with. It's MIDI DIN only, no USB. I don't have a MODX, but according to the manual you can route the MIDI IN DIN to the MIDI USB (MIDI Thru), so theoretically should work. PM me if interested.

The Voce is working for me, but my keys controller is not USB. 

[stoken6]

On 9/26/2023 at 5:53 PM, rogs said:

Organs - like the HC2 I'm using

How are you simultaneously sending HC2-MIDI and "£40 fader-box" MIDI to B3-X? Do you need a merge device, or a USB hub, or something?

 

Regards, Mike.

[rogs]

2 hours ago, stoken6 said:

How are you simultaneously sending HC2-MIDI and "£40 fader-box" MIDI to B3-X? Do you need a merge device, or a USB hub, or something?

 

Regards, Mike.

The HC2 only has MIDI DIN teminals, so I first connect it to one of THESE   Then the USB out from that into the computer.

I do actually use a powered USB hub, but it you have enough USB sockets that's not strictly essential.

 

The Midi controller is USB powered, and simply plugs into another USB socket.

The B3X has the option to either select any one MIDI input or 'ANY'  - which connects all it can find..... That's what I'm using here. 

 

The controller is programmed so that the fader, switches and rotary controls output the required CC codes on channel 16

Upper and lower keyboard, and pedal outputs from the HC2 are fixed MIDI note output codes on channels 1, 2 and 3 respectively.

The 'inverse colour' key presets are actually also note codes, so I've used those to control some of the buttons below the faders.

 

The controller has 4 'scene' buttons, and I currently use:

 Scene 1 for Leslie speed and brake control, vibrato settings (all 6 positions on a single rotary control) and percussion on'off and harmonic select.

Scene 2  has the faders programmed for the upper drawbars.

Scene 3 has the faders programmed for the lower drawbars.

I use 2 of the rotary encoders on scenes 2 and 3 for pedal drawbar control.

 

There is a rotary encoder at the top left which is pre-programmed with program change codes, and that can be used to select presets -- although it is a bit fiddly and critcal.

By sheer luck the HC2 has 5 preset 'registration memory'  buttons which output program change codes. Those are a useful and easy way to select the first 5 presets.

 

That particular MIDI controller appears online in several guises....  The one I use is a UK only device badged 'Sub Zero'   

Other variations include  THIS ONE  ...... I'm sure there are others......

 

So, for not a lot of money it's possible to get quite a lot of control over the B3X functions....  and the HC2 seems to work reliably, even though it is 30 years old.

I've had mine from new, but you can often find them on Ebay for around £50- £100. 

Apart from replacing 'sticky' pedal rubber spacers in mine about 10 years ago, I've never had any other faults.

And they easily split into 4 managable parts, so are easy to fit into a standard small hatchback car -- which can be useful!  

 

[stoken6]

28 minutes ago, rogs said:

The HC2 only has MIDI DIN teminals, so I first connect it to one of THESE 

 

28 minutes ago, rogs said:

The Midi controller is USB powered, and simply plugs into another USB socket.

The B3X has the option to either select any one MIDI input or 'ANY'  - which connects all it can find..... That's what I'm using here. 

And you're using PC, which makes things a lot simpler in that department. iPad would be more complicated.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[Baldwin Funster]

2 hours ago, stoken6 said:

 

And you're using PC, which makes things a lot simpler in that department. iPad would be more complicated.

 

Cheers, Mike.

I'm not sure why you say that. My iPad set up works the exact same way. I use a korg nanokontrol instead of the newer thing but it is almost identical.  B3x in ipad acts just as rogs said .

[stoken6]

9 hours ago, stoken6 said:

And you're using PC, which makes things a lot simpler in that department. iPad would be more complicated.

 

7 hours ago, Baldwin Funster said:

I'm not sure why you say that. My iPad set up works the exact same way. I use a korg nanokontrol instead of the newer thing but it is almost identical.  B3x in ipad acts just as rogs said .

Simply because PCs have multiple USB ports, all powered, which makes connecting multiple devices (a MIDI interface and a fader box) easy. Ipad would require (maybe) a lightning/USB adapter, and a USB hub, and a PSU for the hub, etc. All the stuff we went through in the other thread.

 

But you can confirm that B3X on iPad can accept note input from a controller and simultaneously drawbar input from a separate device? If so, that's good news.

 

Cheers, Mike.

 

[Baldwin Funster]

5 hours ago, stoken6 said:

 

Simply because PCs have multiple USB ports, all powered, which makes connecting multiple devices (a MIDI interface and a fader box) easy. Ipad would require (maybe) a lightning/USB adapter, and a USB hub, and a PSU for the hub, etc. All the stuff we went through in the other thread.

 

But you can confirm that B3X on iPad can accept note input from a controller and simultaneously drawbar input from a separate device? If so, that's good news.

 

Cheers, Mike.

 

B3x recieves note and CC commands from my A800pro and d9x or korg nanok or even both sending the same commands. Obviously if I'm sending switch command CC1 from both controllers simultaneously they will fight each other but b3x responds to the last one to send. Sometimes if using a different controller than the last to send a command you have to hit the button twice to wake up the connection.

B3x recieves upper, lower and pedal on 3 separate setable channels. I've even put the upper AND pedal on the same channel for more umph on the LHB.

I don't recall setting a midi output channel on the D9x so it must be preset to channels 1 ,2 and 3.

It's confusing that midi recieve channels and midi command channels are both called channels so I hope you sort out my meaning.