"If it's too loud, you're too old....."

[Lou Gehrig Charles]

10 hours ago, Reezekeys said:

What's even the point of playing loud at a rehearsal? Maybe I'm being silly but I always thought a rehearsal was for working out arrangements and making sure everyone is playing the right parts. I remember being at a rehearsal studio in NY years ago and the band Stuff was rehearsing in another room - someone cracked the door open and I peeked in. You could barely hear them, they were playing so quietly (and sounded great doing it too). Oh and BTW, yes I am too old!

Good point.  It's a practice, after all, not a gig.  I hate having to wear earplugs at a practice because it's hard to hear the inevitable necessary conversations, but man is it loud without them.

 

Sometimes there is a band of kids in the next room when we are practicing.  During a break, I looked in on them.  They were nowhere as loud as us.

[Stokely]

44 minutes ago, Lou Gehrig Charles said:

Good point.  It's a practice, after all, not a gig.  I hate having to wear earplugs at a practice because it's hard to hear the inevitable necessary conversations, but man is it loud without them.

 

Sometimes there is a band of kids in the next room when we are practicing.  During a break, I looked in on them.  They were nowhere as loud as us.

I can't believe it took me as many years as it did to come to this conclusion.  Practicing loud was what you did--there were drums and they were played loud, amps had to be turned up to compensate, vocals had to get above the amps and feedback was always a threat from the tight quarters and sound bouncing around.   You turned up right away and if we f-ed up and blew past the bridge you shouted into the mic to stop and let's do it again.

Idiocy...and of course it's all compounded by at least one person not really learning the songs  

We did some practices a few years ago without our drummer (who knew the new songs already) and to work out harmonies, and I realized that quiet works way better to work through songs.  And you can't hide when it's quiet     Even with a drummer you could do most of your work with them tapping sticks or something, maybe play at volume at the end when you have things completely worked out.  Depends on whether people are there to wank or jam, or if they are there to get something done.

[wineandkeyz]

One factor in the volume wars at rehearsal is that guitarists usually use cabinets that are at-most waist high. Then they stand in front of them ripping away while the majority of their sonic energy blows past their legs and assails everyone else in the room. But good luck getting any of them to bring a kickback amp or tilt-back stand to rehearsal.

[Stokely]

Play acoustically or semi-acoustically.  Drummer can tap on a chair leg or whatever if they don't have a cajon or e-kit  

That doesn't satisfy the "just got off work, don't have to go home and help with the kids, let me crank to 11" caveman instincts though    I've played with a lot of people that just want to play and the last thing they want to do is more "work"

No way I'll ever willingly have a guitar amp pointed at me again without IEMs on.   Honestly cymbals and loud snare hits are my current nemesis, I use my wedge when I can get far enough away on outdoor stages from the drums--I do a lot of singing and prefer singing with a wedge despite the IEMs having a bit more clarity.

[16251]

I haven't read all of this thread but the title reminded me of a story I read recently about Jeff Beck didn't like playing too loud.  Here's the article. (sorry if has already been posted.)

 

https://www.guitarplayer.com/players/jeff-beck-emotion-and-commotion-2010

[El Lobo]

I've always said good musicians can play at low volume. If you can't play at low volume, you're not very good and you need to learn to play your instrument better. I'm in 2 regularly rehearsing and gigging bands. Both bands rehearse at low volume. At last night's rehearsal, we talked about starting this Sunday's afternoon gig at low volume so by 3rd set volume creep will get us up to party volume, but not ear-hurting. Every time we play at low volume, we notice that we play better. Pros can play at low volume and play well; amateurs can't. 

[time4jazz]

This is one of the main reasons why I stopped doing classic rock gigs a couple of years ago. I enjoyed the music and got to do some fun soloing (loved playing the ironically named Hush). But the volume, especially at practice, was so overwhelming that it was more a form of torture than enjoyment. With one band, I put a dB meter on my phone and routinely clocked ~110 dB at any point in the small practice room!  Everyone’s wearing the most restrictive earplugs available, so all you can hear is extremely muffled music and a bunch of noise.  Time to move on. 

[KuruPrionz]

3 hours ago, wineandkeyz said:

One factor in the volume wars at rehearsal is that guitarists usually use cabinets that are at-most waist high. Then they stand in front of them ripping away while the majority of their sonic energy blows past their legs and assails everyone else in the room. But good luck getting any of them to bring a kickback amp or tilt-back stand to rehearsal.

Sounds like you simply work with the wrong guitarists. I've had a tilt-back stand for many years and my biggest, loudest amp is a Peavey Vypyr VIP 1 - 20 watts and 1-10" speaker. I run it at low volumes but I don't like to play with drummers that play loud. They force the volume issue. I also sing, I don't want to have to bellow like a wounded steer just to hear myself over the din. 

 

And, what is this "rehearsal" you speak of? PPP = Paid Practice Program. Last band I was in had a steady Thursday night gig. It didn't pay a lot but there was a large stage and a good sound system all ready to go. That was our rehearsal and it went well. No complaining neighbors, minimal setup and teardown and unlike most rehearsals, lots of music being played with minimal conversation involving band members discussing off topic subjects to no end. 

[stoken6]

6 minutes ago, KuruPrionz said:

my biggest, loudest amp is a Peavey Vypyr VIP 1 - 20 watts and 1-10" speaker

A 5w valve amp can deafen you without too much difficulty. It's the craftsman not the tool.

6 minutes ago, KuruPrionz said:

I run it at low volumes

Now you're talking my language! Low volume also has the benefit of less reflected sound so the whole mix is clearer.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[HammondDave]

To tell you the truth, I am pretty much fed up with this loud rehearsal bullshit.  My classic rock band does not rehearse at all, and when I set up at gigs I avoid all direct sound sources on stage, especially the bass player’s monitor (cause due to his hearing issues he has it blasting away).   I also wear audiologist custom ear plugs in rehearsals (for my soul band) and on stage…  have worn them most of my career…. and my ears are still ringing. I am seriously considering retiring from live music.  Sad   

[Bill H.]

I've been in bands for over 40 years, and the only ones that played quieter were ones where everyone naturally played quieter. It wasn't forced. Quiet was their comfort zone. If a normally loud member vowed to play quieter, they might be able to pull it off for awhile - but levels would eventually creep up. 

 

The last two bands I was in simply didn't hire anyone who played loud. Both leaders (not me) would say they weren't a good fit. And that was that. 

[JohnH]

I learned about 30 years ago from a cruise ship guitarist I eventually worked with on another ship, your ears are not at your knees. He would put his amp on milk crates.

 

I've put my guitar amp (2X12)  on a rack for 20 years and sometimes bring another small cabinet that I aim up at me too. I had a guy in our band that I ended up replacing as the guitar player that just could not hear himself. It turns out he sold all of his loud gear and just had a solid state amp on the floor, aimed at his legs with a Fractal pedal plugged into it. He's the only guitarist I ever met that couldn't hear himself! And he actually was a world class player, probably one of the greatest unsung no album release and unknown guitarists there ever was. His stuff is on the internet. He wanted me to crank him up in the PA so he could hear himself. Jeez. I also have a floor monitor and hotspot and have mic' d my cabinet for years and sent myself a feed of it slightly in the monitors. He could have easily done something like that too.

[Mark Schmieder]

On 9/21/2023 at 9:33 PM, Reezekeys said:

What's even the point of playing loud at a rehearsal? Maybe I'm being silly but I always thought a rehearsal was for working out arrangements and making sure everyone is playing the right parts. I remember being at a rehearsal studio in NY years ago and the band Stuff was rehearsing in another room - someone cracked the door open and I peeked in. You could barely hear them, they were playing so quietly (and sounded great doing it too). Oh and BTW, yes I am too old!

 

Silly you! Rehearsals are for guitarists to get the point across that they should always be by far the loudest person in the room.

[Mark Schmieder]

There is a very famous club that one of my bands plays at fairly regularly. I leave as soon as we're done, as whoever comes on after us (even when we have a three hour show) is so loud that I can't bear it, and there's nowhere far enough to diminish the impact. I've missed "free" tickets to somewhat well known musicians as a result. The bigger (and usually older) that they are, the louder they are.

[Stokely]

19 hours ago, HammondDave said:

To tell you the truth, I am pretty much fed up with this loud rehearsal bullshit.  My classic rock band does not rehearse at all, and when I set up at gigs I avoid all direct sound sources on stage, especially the bass player’s monitor (cause due to his hearing issues he has it blasting away).   I also wear audiologist custom ear plugs in rehearsals (for my soul band) and on stage…  have worn them most of my career…. and my ears are still ringing. I am seriously considering retiring from live music.  Sad   

 

Not sure they'd help, as you are already using custom ear protection, but I went to in-ears for this reason.  Every single show my ears were ringing badly and I couldn't sleep.  One particular show the drummer went ape on his crash four times in a row at the end of one song and felt and heard my eardrums distort.  That was it, it was stop playing, find a quieter band, or go in-ears.  Frankly, any band with acoustic drums on tight stages doing any kind of rock is what I'd consider too loud.   Even the guys who can lay back on drum, the cymbals can be murder.

I'd prefer a wedge (in some ways, pros and cons), and still use one when space permits, but in-ears have kept me gigging.  My ears never ring now.  We've done a partial in-ear band setup (some on them, some not) for many years so it can work, the main issue will be your PA (if any) and how you can hook them up.   If you are usually playing with sound company-provided PAs or using amps for most of the sound, might not fly.

[dbk]

I’ve been using the IEM active-ambient approach. My band can hit 105-110 dBA depending on venue/stage. Outdoor shows are generally easier. I start out with a really low stage volume though the IEM internal mics (supposedly -24dB  according to IEM spec). I then add some keyboard wedge (time/gear permitting) as needed to get a sense of stage keyboard level. The wedge also adds a bit of body to the keys as opposed to monitoring with just IEMs. Then I add some keyboards to my IEM mix. Just enough to add some clarity but stay balanced. I control everything. Not a perfect system as it sometimes takes some hit/miss tweaking throughout the set to adjust for stage dynamics or keyboard settings. The system keeps me playing live somewhat, but admittedly, the overall experience is not ideal. I try to use them as electronic earplugs but if the stage mix is bad I just have to suck it up. Some gigs are better than others. Coming to terms that I’m getting too old for this.

Dave

[Reezekeys]

Maybe muddying this thread but I just updated my Airpods Pro 2G to the new firmware with the "adaptive audio" setting that supposedly blends active noise cancellation with transparency. Haven't had a chance to try it on a gig yet, but will report when I do. I thought it was a kind of "AI" that automatically switched between the two modes depending on what was going on, however I've read some reports that it actually "blends" the two modes, so it sounds promising. That's not to say I would give a pass to anyone blasting away on stage - but it may offer some respite if I'm in a situation where the levels are too high for my damaged ears.

[Stokely]

I've only ever used in-ears with a mono aux feed, or a stereo ultranet feed.   In either case, I don't run in-ears unless 1) I have control myself over it and 2) we have what I need going through the board.  I wouldn't count on stage sound bleed for anything important--the only exception has occasionally been bass as you tend to get some low end bleed (but ideally I'd have bass in my mix).  The only thing I generally miss are cymbals (ironically since they are big reason I use IEMs), but if it bothered me enough I could point a mic or my zoom h2 at the drums and bring that into the board as ambience.   My mixes are generally very clear and tweakable via app/ultranet mixer, though I do miss the "liveness" of the stage.

We rented a practice spot with an old-school PA to review a bunch of songs with live drums and it sucked.  I heard nothing as clear as I did at gigs.  

I won't let old dinosaur thinking with people that won't turn down drive me away from music.  If tracks became ubiquitous that might do it but that's a whole 'nother discussion

[stoken6]

On 9/23/2023 at 9:38 PM, Reezekeys said:

Maybe muddying this thread but I just updated my Airpods Pro 2G to the new firmware with the "adaptive audio" setting that supposedly blends active noise cancellation with transparency. Haven't had a chance to try it on a gig yet, but will report when I do. I thought it was a kind of "AI" that automatically switched between the two modes depending on what was going on, however I've read some reports that it actually "blends" the two modes, so it sounds promising. That's not to say I would give a pass to anyone blasting away on stage - but it may offer some respite if I'm in a situation where the levels are too high for my damaged ears.

There is definitely a gap in the market for earphones with a "gig mode" that delivers a transparent sound but uses active/passive noise cancellation to lower overall volume. (Probably some active cancellation is needed to filter out excessive bass which - as @Stokely pointed out - always seems to get through passive buds to some degree). I would be interested to see if Apple's new firmware delivers this. If not (and even if yes), a company with both AI smarts and audio pedigree should step in - Sony?

 

Cheers, Mike.