Two envelopes, what a PITA

[konaboy]

Hi ladies, gents.

 

Doing some research for a video topic.

 

Love my JUNO, got one envelope which I use to modulate and sculpt both the amp level and filter cutoff. Quick and easy, sounds great, nothing left to be desired.

 

Many other synths, Prophet 5, Omnisphere, even the Roland Cloud Juno have two envelopes, one for amp and one for filter.

 

I hate it!

 

Now if I want to adjust the attack, decay, release or whatever, I have to do it twice. Not too annoying on hardware but horrible with mouse on software.

 

I have never understood the point of this. I'm sure there are some edge cases where you might want different envelope shapes but not for everyday use, and surely not worth all the extra inconvenience?

 

If I want to adjust the decay, am I supposed to reach for the filter env decay, or the amp env decay?

 

Total PITA. Yeah, I know I'm exposing myself as a total synthesis noob, but surely it's not just me that doesn't get it?  Been struggling with this for 30 years...

[Radagast]

 If you don’t already understand the usefulness of a separate envelope for the filter and another one for the volume, then  I wonder if it CAN be explained to you.

[konaboy]

you could try.  i'm a pretty smart guy.  i used to be a rocket scientist (that is actually true).

[Radagast]

Okay.  Many acoustic instruments start with bright transients that quickly fade away, even though the sustain portion may last much longer.  Think a brass instrument with a pronounced attack that has upper harmonics in it, but the steady state tone is much mellower. Or a plucked string.  You can program a quick decay on the filter and a longer decay on the volume.  But only if you have two separate envelopes.

[Iconoclast]

Am I not mistaken that for many synths you can assign the amp env to mod the filter? I'm quite surprised Omnisphere can't do this. Pretty sure Pigments does (? I'll need to test this later but I would be surprised if it doesn't)

Then you leave the filter env off and just mod both with the amp env?

I can totally see that for most of my purposes I'd prefer 2 separate envelopes for amp and filter, and it's not too hard to match them up on a hardware synth.  Kind of a pain on soft synths!

[David Emm]

As one example, you can create faux touch sensitivity on a brass patch by setting the filter to open as you hold down keys for a couple of seconds. It emulates the swell of the real thing in a way a single envelope can't match. Its helpful even in synths that are touch-sensitive. That can be even more important with multi-layered synth patches, where all sorts of accenting elements like arpeggios can add useful drama as fade-ins. BASICALLY, The amp env defines the total shape; the filter amp defines tonal movement.

 

You sound a bit like me: rather pianistic. It took me a few years to engage the elasticity of envelope tweaking. I'm still working on applying LFOs properly. So far, just a touch here & there seems to enhance without being up your nose. The more obvious, wobbly uses make my teeth itch. 🤨

[CyberGene]

Filter envelope is applied by using the current filter cutoff as its starting point. Which means that even if you have a slow attack, it would start immediately producing sound if you have some cutoff amount. Which is why you may need a separate amp envelope attack. Etc, etc. 

 

P.S. and in the above example you can’t solve the problem with using a fully closed filter as starting point because then you will have a way too big brightness jump. Yeah, you can fix that with a smaller filter env amount but then you will end up at different peak 😉 It’s all interrelated. 

[timwat]

Independent manipulation of amplitude and timbre (or, at least, brightness / filter cutoff). Which, if you set filter resonance high enough, you can also independently manipulate the pitch of the resonant note. Rob provided a nice analogy of acoustic instruments (brass and plucked). Moving on to completely synthetic sounds, two envelopes (especially if, as in some units, they can be routed to destinations other than amplitude and filter cutoff) can then be used for all sorts of sonic manipulation that cannot be accomplished by any other means. 

 

This is somewhat, in my mind, related to the the advantage of having ADSR vs. ADR - finer control / manipulation of whatever destination your shaping.

 

But, I also concur that if one isn't looking to explore sound creation and is trying to make a quick adjustment to an existing patch (which is what I'm often doing), knowing which envelope to adjust is one more step in the process that can add complexity / make a mistake. Sometimes having lots of options is...well...

[konaboy]

thanks for helping me.  also confused with workflow, would one begin with the amp env and then adjust the filter env?  if the amp env is all off, then filter env has no effect, and vice versa.

would you for example, set the amp env to an organ shape 0-0-10-0 and then carve out the right filter env, then dial in the amp env?

you can see why this might be confusing...  on the juno I never have to worry about this.

[timwat]

Yes, and yes.

 

The way subtractive was introduced to me, the first thing we dialed up was organ (as it represented a simple on/off). Piano was next as a held key introduced the concept of a gradual release. Wind instruments next with the not-instantaneous attack, then plucked, and on and on. 

 

It gets you thinking about the instruments you hear and how to approximate amplitude over time vs. timbre over time.

[marino]

At first, I thought that this was a complaint about not having MORE than two envelopes. So I'll take the trouble to voice that cause.

 

Today, most envelopes and lfos are digital, even on analog synths. And today's digital envelopes are fast enough for pratically every task. So it's totally inexcusable to have synths with just two envelopes. I'd say that five envelopes and five lfos are the right amount for serious programming. The Matrix-12 from 1985 had that. (yes, *those* envelopes were a bit slow - but that was 1985)

And please make sure to have loopable envelopes and "one-shot" mode for lfos - so they can act as simple additional envelopes.

[CyberGene]

20 minutes ago, timwat said:

Piano was next as a held key introduced the concept of a gradual release.

BTW, almost no synth provides an envelope that would gradually decay while the key is being held like the piano. Which is such a pity. Wondering whether first synth creators thought about that. And nowadays everybody just copies over the classic ADSR with a fixed sustain level. 

[Iconoclast]

14 minutes ago, CyberGene said:

BTW, almost no synth provides an envelope that would gradually decay while the key is being held like the piano. Which is such a pity. Wondering whether first synth creators thought about that. And nowadays everybody just copies over the classic ADSR with a fixed sustain level. 

How does an ADSR with D set to a long time and S set at or near zero not accomplish this?

Or alternatively, I can name several soft synths and synths that have ADR envelopes. Do they not do the same thing?

Am I not understanding you?

[CyberGene]

28 minutes ago, Iconoclast said:

How does an ADSR with D set to a long time and S set at or near zero not accomplish this?

Yeah, but in terms of spectral content, a piano has a very fast percussive attack followed by a very fast decay that removes the percussive chaos followed then by a rather slowly changing spectral content only going through a slow sustain-decay. So, with an ADSR you can do one or the other but not both. 
 

Notice, I mean approaching the piano sound realistically in terms of timbre, hence filter envelope. If we’re after just following the general amp curve of a piano sound, then the AD approach will work. 

[marino]

19 minutes ago, CyberGene said:

Yeah, but in terms of spectral content, a piano has a very fast percussive attack followed by a very fast decay that removes the percussive chaos followed then by a rather static spectral content only going through a slow sustain-decay. So, with an ADSR you can do one or the other but not both. 
 

Notice, I mean approaching the piano sound realistically in terms of timbre, hence filter envelope. If we’re after just following the general amp curve of a piano sound, then the AD approach will work. 

 

Well, remember that envelope is not synonymous with ADSR. Some synths, like Kurzweils, have different, consecutive decay stages. As an alternative, you can modulate filter, or other aspects of the timbre, with two different ADSR envelopes at the same time, with different decay times.

[jazzpiano88]

This might also be helpful describing different envelope controls. 
 

 

[TJ Cornish]

3 hours ago, marino said:

 

Well, remember that envelope is not synonymous with ADSR. Some synths, like Kurzweils, have different, consecutive decay stages. As an alternative, you can modulate filter, or other aspects of the timbre, with two different ADSR envelopes at the same time, with different decay times.

Yes - the Kronos has many filter stages as well as different slope curves. You can easily model a percussive instrument like Piano. 

[Tusker]

7 hours ago, marino said:

 

Well, remember that envelope is not synonymous with ADSR. Some synths, like Kurzweils, have different, consecutive decay stages. As an alternative, you can modulate filter, or other aspects of the timbre, with two different ADSR envelopes at the same time, with different decay times.

 

👍 👍 Yes, for me the basic building block in a screen based interface should be an MSEG with presets. Consider four use cases:

 

1 - Want a single ADSR to handle the amp and filter? No problem Just activate one MSEG, select an ADSR preset from a drop-down menu. Tweak.

2 - Want separate ADSRs for amp and filter? No problem, Activate two MSEGs. (Or three, if you want a pitch blip with the attack 💪 )

3- Want non-linear or multi-stage envelopes to mimic acoustic instruments or evolve over time? No problem. Activate the required number of MSEGS. Pick various non-linear or multi-stage presets.

4- Want an envelope which can become an LFO and vice versa? No problem. select the MSEG preset you want and click where you want it to loop. Assign the loop on-off to a midi cc.

 

Modulation should be like an extensible ladder. You should be able to pick how much complexity you want. If you are doing a bass patch you want simple. If you are doing an evolving bed, you want complex.

[Dr Mike Metlay]

In fairness, the concept of multiple envelopes can seem very much redundant to someone who doesn’t do a whole lot of sound design. In fact, a couple of the most famous synthesizers in dance music, including the Junos if memory serves correctly, have a simple switch to gate VCA or have it follow the filter envelope. So somebody who learned on a Juno would find this quite natural. 
 

To answer one of the OP’s original questions, which envelope do you adjust first? I’m afraid the answer is, either or both. There is no set order; you go back-and-forth and adjust both until you get the response that you want.

 

You might never find a use for this, but as you’ve read, many other people do.
 

mike

[jerrythek]

16 hours ago, Iconoclast said:

Am I not mistaken that for many synths you can assign the amp env to mod the filter? I'm quite surprised Omnisphere can't do this. Pretty sure Pigments does (? I'll need to test this later but I would be surprised if it doesn't)

Then you leave the filter env off and just mod both with the amp env?

I can totally see that for most of my purposes I'd prefer 2 separate envelopes for amp and filter, and it's not too hard to match them up on a hardware synth.  Kind of a pain on soft synths!

I would think you can use the amp env in Omnisphere as a mod source in the Mod Matrix to control filter (and other things). No?

 

As for matching envelopes, I always like instruments that let you copy parameters/a page of parameters to use elsewhere. It’s worth looking for. 

[marino]

6 hours ago, Tusker said:

Modulation should be like an extensible ladder. You should be able to pick how much complexity you want.

 

Absolutely. If one doesn't need those extra envelopes and lfos, nobody is forcing him to use them.
Also: Thinking about the synths I had in the 90s, most of them have some kind of complex envelopes: Matrix-12, TG77, Kurzweil K series, XP80, Ion... all of them have extra segments, and they often give control over curves too. Today, many subtractive-style synths stick to simple ADSRs, and just two of them... even high-end machines like the Trigon or the OB-X8. I don't get it.

[RABid]

The trick is to mentally separate the change in timbre from the change in volume. Listen to the timbre change on a piano, guitar, horn. Once you start to really notice that it will all make sense.

[K K]

Simplistic summary :

Filter envelope = timbre adjustments,

Amplitude envelope = volume adjustments.

 

A few more thoughts :

Envelopes differ from one synth to another, especially from one synth manufacturer to another. Many older synths had rather limited envelopes, as each part (for example, in a simple ADSR) would not necessarily give you distinct controls for both the level and time of it. In other words, A or attack is not just a time, it is also a level. In a great machine like the Kronos, all envelope levels and times can have distinct values, so you have much more control to adjust things as you want.

[Adam Burgess]

When I'm not doing work for money - I keep working on my Integra editor (which I guess would also work back to the JV/XP/XV stuff with not many changes… thinking about how my old XP50 was structured)

Overall, learning what EVERY parameter does on the Integra has definitely given me a much bigger understanding about, at least Roland's, synthesis than I would have ever have done just doing the preset thing. It's just a horrible menu-dive hell… 


On the Integra's PCM engine, there's SOOOO much control over many filters:

Filter, Amp, and Pitch envelopes per partial, 4x partials per tone, so there's 12 envelopes right away. Times that by 16 parts - and in one "Performance" (Studio Set) you've got…

… more than I can sum in my head, but it's quite a lot 🙂

Also as many as 8 LFOs modulating 'anything' per tone/partial, more or less, AND a modulation matrix for other inputs to do 'stuff'! It's quite overwhelming, for sure!

EDIT: And, of course, they're all Time-Variant (in Roland speak, too!) as well as being Level Variable.

But, you have given me a great idea for something else to add to the list*. Linkable, or Copy/Paste-able envelopes…

* which will have to go to a real software person at some point! Getting above my hobbyist pay grade as it is. I'm only a piana player, really. 

[Mike Martin]

On 9/16/2023 at 12:44 PM, konaboy said:

Many other synths, Prophet 5, Omnisphere, even the Roland Cloud Juno have two envelopes, one for amp and one for filter.

In the case of Omnisphere, if you have a physical controller - Map both Amp and Filter ADSR to the same four sliders. So when you're adjusting the Attack you're changing it for both the Amp and Filter. Combine that with the "shared signal path" feature you can quickly and easily get a Juno vibe. 

[Reezekeys]

If I'm remembering right, the Kurz K250 had 256-stage envelopes... this in 1984 or thereabouts. Just think, I could read War & Peace before finishing programming one envelope!

[AROIOS]

On 9/16/2023 at 10:44 AM, konaboy said:

...

I have never understood the point of this. I'm sure there are some edge cases where you might want different envelope shapes but not for everyday use, and surely not worth all the extra inconvenience?

...

K K said it most succinctly.
 

I think a big part of why some folks might consider separate ADSR envelopes redundant, is because human ears are more sensitive to higher frequencies, and low-pass filtering tend to create the perception of reduced volume/amplitude.
 

To demonstrate why we would want separate envelopes for amplitude and filter, I've created a simple comparison below. The 1st sound has a slow attack applied ONLY to amplitude; while the 2nd one has the the slow attack applied to BOTH amplitude and filter. Everything else remains the same.
 

As we can hear in the attack phase of both sounds, timbre doesn't change in the 1st sound. If we only has 1 envelope, we would be stuck with only the 2nd sound.

 

 

 

 

 

[Tom Williams]

On 9/16/2023 at 1:44 PM, konaboy said:

Many other synths, Prophet 5, Omnisphere, even the Roland Cloud Juno have two envelopes, one for amp and one for filter.

I hate it!

Oh.  I was getting ready to empathize with you over the frustration of having only two envelopes.

 

I like (at times) having one for amplitude, another for filter, and a third for pitch.  All independently velocity controlled. 

[Tom Williams]

6 hours ago, Reezekeys said:

If I'm remembering right, the Kurz K250 had 256-stage envelopes... this in 1984 or thereabouts. Just think, I could read War & Peace before finishing programming one envelope!

I seem to remember reading that too.  Pretty amazing for a 12 oscillator keyboard. Current Kurzweils have seven(?) segments, but tons of ways to modulate 'em (only on the amplitude envelope; stupid limitation IMO).  Funny, thirty years ago my Casio CZ1 had eight stage envelopes with selectable loop point; my Ensoniq EPS envelopes had six stages (x two -- velocity could interpolate between them if I remember right).

[Josh Paxton]

I saw the title and thought, "Yes, amen!" Then I read the first post and realized the OP and I actually had opposite complaints: he wants only one envelope, and I want more than two. My first synth was a DX21, so I got used to having a separate envelope for each operator/oscillator. Later when I learned analog subtractive synthesis, it was on a massive Polyfusion modular that had a dozen of everything, so I could easily patch each oscillator through its own amplitude envelope. Got some killer sounds out of that thing. Then when I started messing with "real world" analog synths and realized they mostly had only one envelope for amplitude and one for filter, I was bummed!