Rumors: Yamaha Montage successor

[AnotherScott]

49 minutes ago, Stokely said:

I guess they did the math and thought their sales wouldn't be hurt by it.

Or for some technical reason, were not (yet) able to offer the feature in their non-hammer actions.

[Docbop]

16 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

Or for some technical reason, were not (yet) able to offer the feature in their non-hammer actions.

 From Marketing POV leaves them a feature to add later to keep sales going on months from now.    It was common in all companies I worked for Marketing would hold back on features to have something to pitch as products age.   

[Fleer]

So, about the fan: https://www.amazona.de/test-yamaha-montage-m6-m7-synthesizer/#lueftergeraeusche-im-montage-m6-synthesizer

[DeltaJockey]

35 minutes ago, Fleer said:

So, about the fan: https://www.amazona.de/test-yamaha-montage-m6-m7-synthesizer/#lueftergeraeusche-im-montage-m6-synthesizer

The thing I most noticed, was his comment on the attention to detailed orchestral percussion. I noticed a heavier than normal emphasis on this in my Montage M8x. I am perplexed as to why.

 

On the fan, when reading your concerns, it's like your talking about the early Kronos days, but I can assure you, this Montage is NOTHING like that. I've been using mine for a week now, and the only reminder I have that it even has a fan, is the comments I read on here. In everyday use, it just doesn't remind me. I have a better chance of hearing the fans in my Mac Studio which sits about 3 feet from my head, but I have to lean in to identify that! But of course, your ears may be in better shape than mine, and a Mac Studio fan may be unacceptable too. I looked at the sound meter on my Apple watch, and just me moving in the chair registers more than the Montage fan

 

Of course it may ramp up in an outdoor gig environment on a hot day , or in a hot summer studio, but better to have that than it have to throttle down. Perhaps a tradeoff for having more power under the hood? In my everyday use in a 20deg C room, it's like it;s not there.

 

 

[Theo Verelst]

Interesting question is how does the sound of all this digital machinery come about in a proper way, and is there a design beyond (most) the presets and currently demonstrated sounds in Dr. K's designs in there? From what I've observed (only from demos) I think there's a  lot of intentional elements which can come to "perfect" sound, after digital to analog conversion, which is very far from trivial. If there are certain sound elements (including sample parts, effects, filters, etc.) with preparations in them, and some (global) signal path precautions, tunings can come about in the sound which are normally never happening, because there are no normal for instance sample re-tune, filter simulation, global chorus combinations of signal processing steps and parameter tunings to create subtle (but very hard) DAC preparation sound, and to process virtual analog signal path parts correctly.

 

The amount of preparation to make this even possible is considerable, it's like saying "why can a Lexicon effect sound good", or why do most digital simulations of analog synthesis, even to on-experts, sound so lousy all the time, so that programming them virtually never gives anyone a "lucky brake", sound-wise. Tuning an analog phaser or putting on a good record on a HiFi system is easily satisfactory, however even expensive and decades in-development digital stuff appears to never become satisfactory...

 

TV

 

[ProfD]

19 minutes ago, Theo Verelst said:

I think there's a  lot of intentional elements which can come to "perfect" sound, after digital to analog conversion, which is very far from trivial.

 

The amount of preparation to make this even possible is considerable, it's like saying "why can a Lexicon effect sound good", or why do most digital simulations of analog synthesis, even to on-experts, sound so lousy all the time, so that programming them virtually never gives anyone a "lucky brake", sound-wise. Tuning an analog phaser or putting on a good record on a HiFi system is easily satisfactory, however even expensive and decades in-development digital stuff appears to never become satisfactory...

IMO, creating good music has less to do with *perfect* sound anywhere in the chain. 

 

It begins and ends with how talented and creative people manipulate the sounds and technology available to them in order to produce results i.e. good music. 

 

There is no shortage of expensive, well-recorded, hi-fidelity garbage across every recording medium. 

 

The engineers have done their part in producing a Montage M and every other tool required for music performance, composition and production.

 

These instruments provide talented and creative folks with every sound imaginable.  It's up to those individuals to produce results.😎

[pjd]

I meant to add my own comments about the M8X action after playing one. I'm looking at instruments in this price range which will enable me to improve my acoustic piano chops and I hoped that the M8x would fit the bill.

 

As to the action, unfortunately, no. The mechanical feel of the keyboard reminds me of the old GH3/GH3X, which I find fatiguing. Much prefer the NWX in that regard. I've got to put in some serious shed time and didn't want fatigue to be a factor.

 

Sound-wise, no res-er-vations. In the AWM2 department, Yamaha boosted the APs, EPs, strings and orchestra percussion. The new APs and EPs are truly nice (detailed), although lacking VRM and a few other features of the Clavinova series. The "Cinema Strings" are the Montage version of Genos (Mk1) "Kino Strings", having a very different character than the "Seattle Strings." In the AN-X department, I felt at home, somehow grounded in the old AN tone.

 

The new rotary speaker sim is a huge plus. However, the Ms are still too big and heavy for me to gig. Everything is herniated. Everything. I'll wait for the rotary sim to come to the MOM or MOMO or whatever they call the little brother. I can wait. (Or is that "I can't wait." 😀 )

 

As to the 88 for home, I ordered a close-out CSP-170. Dealer tells me it's at a California Yamaha depot right now...

 

That's the quick take -- pj

 

https://sandsoftwaresound.net/montage-m8x-review-yes-i-played-one/

 

[AnotherScott]

30 minutes ago, pjd said:

The mechanical feel of the keyboard reminds me of the old GH3/GH3X

That's too bad. But also, that makes me think the feel may not be so different from the Montage 8 that preceded it. I was under the impression that its BHE action was essentially an ungraded version of the GH.

[pjd]

34 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

That's too bad. But also, that makes me think the feel may not be so different from the Montage 8 that preceded it. I was under the impression that its BHE action was essentially an ungraded version of the GH.

 

Hi Scott --

 

After playing a bunch of keyboards during my quest, I endorse "Try before buy." At least the FSX actions are known entities.

 

Fortunately, I didn't have any trouble finding an M8x to try. Not so easy when brick and mortar stores don't want to provide demo units. Can't imagine paying any sort of return shipping fee for an M8x! 😃

 

All the best -- pj

 

[Mighty Motif Max]

2 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

3 hours ago, pjd said:

As to the action, unfortunately, no. The mechanical feel of the keyboard reminds me of the old GH3/GH3X, which I find fatiguing. Much prefer the NWX in that regard. I've got to put in some serious shed time and didn't want fatigue to be a factor.

 

That's too bad. But also, that makes me think the feel may not be so different from the Montage 8 that preceded it. I was under the impression that its BHE action was essentially an ungraded version of the GH.

I grew up with a Clavinova CVP-305 that had the GH3 action - to me it was (and is) much heavier and fatiguing than the BH/BHE action on the Motif/Montage 8's. I don't think it's just a difference in grading - the entire feel is different to me. If the new M8X really feels like the GH3, that is unfortunate.

[Jose EB5AGV]

3 hours ago, pjd said:

The mechanical feel of the keyboard reminds me of the old GH3/GH3X

 

As I have no idea of how those actions feel... Have you, by any chance, played a Kawai VPC1?. It is my reference and I would like to know how it compares, if you have experience with it. Yes, I know it is a long shot! 😉

[DeltaJockey]

Interesting comments about the action. I find the GEX to have a lighter static downweight than the BHE on my previous Montage8, but the dynamic momentum is a different profile altogether. It's free-er but has a little more inertia, whereas the BHE was a bit more damped in dynamic behaviour.  Obviously playing technique and music style affect ones stamina, but I get less fatigued playing the M8x than I did the Montage8. The M8x action is not really piano like, but to me, it satisfies the hands when playing piano, and also making it just as satisfying for non keyboard instrument sounds.

I gave up trying to replicate my acoustic action and just focus on the playing experience.

[pjd]

1 hour ago, DeltaJockey said:

Interesting comments about the action.

 

The M8x action is not really piano like, but to me, it satisfies the hands when playing piano, and also making it just as satisfying for non keyboard instrument sounds.

I gave up trying to replicate my acoustic action and just focus on the playing experience.

 

I'm by no means an expert on actions. That's why I endorse "Try before buy." It comes down to personal preference (choice), so any of my comments, "reminds me of ..." need to be taken with a grain of salt.

 

YEP, AP/EP is a lot more satisfying on GEX than MODX6 or FSX. I forgot to mention -- As to playing non-piano voices with GEX, it's a no-go for me. Playing organ on GEX was painful. Again, YMMV. 

 

Thanks! I really appreciate reading everyone's impressions. I really don't mind divergent opinions.  -- pj

 

P.S. The M8x is an instrument to be tried and considered in any case.

 

[SteveinJersey]

I would be VERY interested to hear one's impression of how the action on the M8X compares to that on the Motif XF8, from the perspective

of someone who plans to play these in lieu of an actual acoustic piano.  I ask because I have owned the XF8 for about a decade and am debating

whether to sell and replace it with the M8X. 

 

And a related comparison I'd be interested in:  how the action on the M8X compares to the YC88, which is the other Yamaha keyboard

I had been considering prior to learning of the Montage M. 

[DeltaJockey]

44 minutes ago, pjd said:

 

Thanks! I really appreciate reading everyone's impressions. I really don't mind divergent opinions.  -- p

 

Absolutely!

[DeltaJockey]

41 minutes ago, SteveinJersey said:

I would be VERY interested to hear one's impression of how the action on the M8X compares to that on the Motif XF8, from the perspective

of someone who plans to play these in lieu of an actual acoustic piano.  I ask because I have owned the XF8 for about a decade and am debating

whether to sell and replace it with the M8X. 

 

And a related comparison I'd be interested in:  how the action on the M8X compares to the YC88, which is the other Yamaha keyboard

I had been considering prior to learning of the Montage M. 

Unfortunately I can't give you that comparison, as I've never played the MotifXF nor the YC88. Doesn't the XF8 have the same BHE action as the original Montage8?

In that case I have already given my thoughts on that.

 

...In my view, the M8x is not about playing on an authentic piano action but as I commented, giving a nice weighted experience acceptable for piano performances.

I think it does that really well. As I don't use organ patches, the weighted action is not an impediment to my other performances/parts playing. But as I've had the most experience with weighted actions, I prefer a good one to give me the more nuanced expression on all the other instrument sounds, for that it it works really well.

[SteveinJersey]

2 hours ago, DeltaJockey said:

Unfortunately I can't give you that comparison, as I've never played the MotifXF nor the YC88. Doesn't the XF8 have the same BHE action as the original Montage8?

In that case I have already given my thoughts on that.

 

...In my view, the M8x is not about playing on an authentic piano action but as I commented, giving a nice weighted experience acceptable for piano performances.

I think it does that really well. As I don't use organ patches, the weighted action is not an impediment to my other performances/parts playing. But as I've had the most experience with weighted actions, I prefer a good one to give me the more nuanced expression on all the other instrument sounds, for that it it works really well.

Good point.  I just checked and confirmed that the Motif and the original Montage did supposedly utilize the same BHE action.  So assuming Yamaha's mfg process remained consistent for both keyboards,  I'm cautiously optimistic that I'll like the Montage M's action better, as it appears my preferences match yours. But of course the only way to really tell is to get sufficient hands-on experience on a demo unit, which I hope to do in the very near future.

[Keyboardplayer]

On 10/25/2023 at 9:10 AM, AnotherScott said:

Or for some technical reason, were not (yet) able to offer the feature in their non-hammer actions.

Yamaha should have waited to release the Montage M if what you say is the reason why poly AT is absent on the M6/M7. But I don't buy it. Other keyboard manufacturers such as ASM have released the Hydrasynth Deluxe keyboard with poly AT without hammer action keys. Korg is preparing to release its new Keystage controller keyboard with MIDI 2.0 and poly AT in 49 & 61-key variants. I realize the GEX technology keybed on the M8x uses sensors instead of contacts, but what does hammer-action (weighted keys) have to do with it? Just wondering. I think Yamaha made a huge blunder, especially from a business standpoint. If all three M variants had poly AT, Yamaha would have mopped the floor against the competition in my opinion. But maybe they're rolling in dough, so perhaps the extra treasure trove of cash from M6x/M7x sales wasn't worth the effort in the eyes of Yamaha President and CEO Takuya Nakata? Yamaha is the global leader in musical instrument sales, and their technology, innovation, and expertise are basically unparalleled in the music industry. And yet, they couldn't figure out how to put poly AT using GEX technology on a semi-weighted form factor keyboard? Don't smoke that, Grandpa, that ain't tabacci. They goofed, in my opinion, and they should probably fire the person who gave the order to nix poly AT on the M6/M7. Even if the person is higher up on the food chain, which he probably would have had to have been. At least you know how I feel about it.  😒  Btw, I went ahead and purchased a M8x from Guitar Center a few days ago. Got it home and set it up. Updated the OS to the latest version, but the thing weighs a ton, and moving the thing around is a monumental task in and of itself. I knew that going in, but I thought I'd give it a try anyway. The action was lighter than I expected, which was a pleasant surprise. But I reluctantly decided to return it because it was just too bulky. No hernia, thank goodness. 😊 Although to Yamaha's credit, it does sound amazing, but if you already own the original Montage the sound difference is minimal, as the YouTube video from DSK Synth demonstrates. If Yamaha ever decides to put poly AT on the M6/M7, I would probably turn around and buy one of those instead. But Yamaha may have missed its window of opportunity because other companies are pulling up the slack and may beat Yamaha at its own game. Remember, the CS-80 had poly AT, and it was released to the public over 45 years ago! The $4,300 I paid for the M8x will instead go toward the new Genos2 (if it meets or beats expectations), expected to be released on November 15, 2023. Enjoy your weekend, guys and gals!  👍

[AnotherScott]

1 hour ago, Keyboardplayer said:

Yamaha should have waited to release the Montage M if what you say is the reason why poly AT is absent on the M6/M7.

I disagree that we'd be better off with polyAT on nothing than being only on the 88, or they should have delayed releasing the M entirely. In either case, we'd be left with fewer good choices today.

 

1 hour ago, Keyboardplayer said:

But I don't buy it. Other keyboard manufacturers such as ASM have released the Hydrasynth Deluxe keyboard with poly AT without hammer action keys. Korg is preparing to release its new Keystage controller keyboard with MIDI 2.0 and poly AT in 49 & 61-key variants.

Korg is doing it by buying the actions from ASM.

 

1 hour ago, Keyboardplayer said:

I realize the GEX technology keybed on the M8x uses sensors instead of contacts, but what does hammer-action (weighted keys) have to do with it? Just wondering.

We're not engineers with info of all the tech details. But one possibility, based on pjd's post... the GEX sensor mechanism (at least as it existed in the high end DPs they adapted it from) depends on the keys being a certain distance apart, and Yamaha's non-hammer keys don't have the same key-to-key distance as their hammer action keys.

 

1 hour ago, Keyboardplayer said:

they should probably fire the person who gave the order to nix poly AT on the M6/M7.

If the tech existed that was compatible only with the M8 design, then nobody nixed doing it on a board it couldn't be done on (or more specifically, couldn't be done  at acceptable cost and/or in a similar timeframe).

 

1 hour ago, Keyboardplayer said:

Remember, the CS-80 had poly AT, and it was released to the public over 45 years ago!👍

It also cost about $35k in today's dollars.

 

Also, numerous boards have had polyAT over the years, from Yamaha, Kurzweil, Roland, and Ensoniq, at least. For whatever reason or combination of reasons (cost, feel, reliability, demand, whatever), it did not become a staple feature. Keeping in mind all the complaints we see about how regular aftertouch sucks on this board or that, the goal should not be merely to have a checklist item, but to do a good implementation of it.

[jazzpiano88]

A marketing strategy is all about differentiation both internal and external.    They may have made a calculation that PolyAT on the M6/7 would eat into the sales of the M8x and reduce total profit of the line and they achieve a good-enough sales figure for Channel-AT models (it's good enough for Nautilus 61 and 88 but not 73 -- wrap your brain around that!).    That's the type of calculation I would expect happened coupled with the fact that the product delay would have cost a lot in terms of lost business.

 

A lot of consumer behavior is very unpredictable.  You want the sunroof on the base model Honda and it's not available, so you're instead buying the Mercedes S-class?

[AnotherScott]

7 minutes ago, JazzPiano88 said:

 (it's good enough for Nautilus 61 and 88 but not 73 -- wrap your brain around that!).

I think it may be that they're discontinuing the 73 entirely. I doubt they'll keep the non-AT Nautilus around, I think they're just clearing out existing stock on those. So all that will be left are the 88 and 61 models (with AT).

[Stokely]

27 minutes ago, JazzPiano88 said:

A marketing strategy is all about differentiation both internal and external.    They may have made a calculation that PolyAT on the M6/7 would eat into the sales of the M8x and reduce total profit of the line and they achieve a good-enough sales figure for Channel-AT models (it's good enough for Nautilus 61 and 88 but not 73 -- wrap your brain around that!).    That's the type of calculation I would expect happened coupled with the fact that the product delay would have cost a lot in terms of lost business.

 

A lot of consumer behavior is very unpredictable.  You want the sunroof on the base model Honda and it's not available, so you're instead buying the Mercedes S-class?

Well, in my case, if I were buy something with poly AT and the Montage 6/7 don't have it, it would be far cheaper most likely    A better analogy is that the Mercedes didn't have the sunroof, so I had to go with the Honda civic    Talking about maybe the Hydrasynth, or I'd get a midi controller.

And to be sure, poly AT is not the main reason I'd buy a Montage.  It would be an incentive to push things further toward a tipping point.   I would use it live, which is why the 88 key model is a non-starter.  I'd also use it at home as a controller.  I own and like the Modx operating system, and own a couple libraries for it that (hopefully) would work on this (Purgatory Creek is one) so those are a couple more little nudges.

[Artomas]

From all the info I've gathered, Yamaha didn't need to develop new hardware in order to give polyAT to the M8x. They used their already developed optical sensor-based piano-style keys, and then it only required extra programming in order to implement polyAT for those keys.

 

But since they don't already have, in their knowledge base, a synth keyboard with appropriate sensors, then if they wanted their synth-style keys to have polyAT functionality, they'd have to develop or purchase new hardware. Maybe they're trying to do that right now? But then, if they come out with a M6pa and M7pa in a year or two, they might upset people who bought the M6 and 7 in the meantime. The other option would be if they hadn't released ANY new Montage until polyAT synth keys were ready. Eh.

 

IOW, it doesn't seem to be a marketing decision at all, and don't plan on Yamaha being able to "unlock" polyAT on the M6 or M7 without retrofitting a new type of keybed, which seems unlikely, but maybe not impossible?

[ProfD]

58 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

I disagree that we'd be better off with polyAT on nothing than being only on the 88, or they should have delayed releasing the M entirely. In either case, we'd be left with fewer good choices today.

 

Brotha Scott, you typed  that as if it's a bad thing.  IMO, today's KB players have too many choices. 🤣😎

[jazzpiano88]

16 minutes ago, Stokely said:

And to be sure, poly AT is not the main reason I'd buy a Montage. 

 

I think that describes a lot of people.   And because Yamaha undoubtedly understands their customer base, suggests the existence of a well-thought-out marketing strategy to explain their M offerings.

[Artomas]

9 minutes ago, JazzPiano88 said:

 

I think that describes a lot of people.   And because Yamaha undoubtedly understands their customer base, suggests the existence of a well-thought-out marketing strategy to explain their M offerings.

Believe whatever you want about marketing decisions, but I'd urge people not to expect Yamaha to be able to unlock polyAT in existing M6 and M7 keyboards. Maybe one day, they could retrofit a new keybed assembly, for a steep fee. That would be the best available hope for M6/7 purchasers who hope to upgrade to polyAT. For people who don't want polyAT in their M6/7, no worries.

[Stokely]

While poly AT is not the main reason I'd buy a Montage M, I *have* kind of set my sights on my next keyboard having poly AT.  A better way for me to put would be that poly AT is not the only factor in buying, it has to be something I'd use and like (and the Montage M would qualify).   If they put poly AT on say a Yamaha CP I probably wouldn't be interested as the price would still be high and the soundset is not what I want or need.

And certainly I'd always recommend buying for what is in the machine today (hardware or software).  Even if the company explicitly said they'd put in X down the road, who knows.  

[Julius D Majestic Studios]

On 10/25/2023 at 11:31 AM, Docbop said:

 From Marketing POV leaves them a feature to add later to keep sales going on months from now.    It was common in all companies I worked for Marketing would hold back on features to have something to pitch as products age.   

So why not just leave it off in all models then?  The keyboard had enough new features to stand alone without polyphonic aftertouch...

[FatFingers]

Is the polyAT keyboard the main reason for the larger weight increase from M7 to M8, compared to the smaller increase from M6 to M7?   (M8=61 lb, while M7=38 lb and M6=33 lb)

[DeltaJockey]

1 hour ago, FatFingers said:

Is the polyAT keyboard the main reason for the larger weight increase from M7 to M8, compared to the smaller increase from M6 to M7?   (M8=61 lb, while M7=38 lb and M6=33 lb)

The original Montage weight differences were about the same. No it's not because of PAT. In fact the M8x is 1kg lighter than the old Montage8. But in practice I can't feel the difference when lifting them. They're both quite heavy!