Behringer Pro-800: Stocking Stuffer or Suppository?

[lsj]

OKAY...ENOUGH ALREADY, let's just move on.  everyone has an opinion, lets' try to keep them to ourselves and all get along.  sounds like a good idea?

[Stokely]

I've been in the same band for 11 years with people that have wildly varying political views--it works because "no politics discussed, ever" just like on this forum

Perhaps a "no Behringer, ever" policy is called for to promote harmony!

[AWkeys]

I own a Blue Marvin B2600, a BOdyssey, a PolyD. I also own an original 1973 ARP Odyssey that is pretty much broken, was on line to get the original Korg reissue 2600 (too far back in line to get one), owned the Korg Mini-Odyssey, own a Signature Edition Moog Voyager that I bought in 2001.

 

I don't blame anyone for their feelings about Behringer's business practices. Those stories are egregious. The fact remains that their price point makes it possible for me to own things that would have put me out thousands more dollars. As a full-time musician, I have to consider this. My take (or cop-out, if you believe it to be so) is that every piece of technology I own has some dark history in its development behind it. The history of my country is much darker than the white-washing it was given. Maybe it makes me part of the problem that I don't fight these things, but I'm just trying to be creative in what is at many times a very dark world.

[Threadslayer]

I don't have a dog in this fight, but I will say that this has been a very entertaining thread. 

[Joe Muscara]

Sooooo… suppository?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[RABid]

1 hour ago, Joe Muscara said:

Sooooo… suppository?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Up yours!   😇

 

 

 

 

 

Get it? ... ... ... suppository ... ... ... Up yours. ... ... ... What a room.

[Finale]

[mate stubb]

[CHarrell]

On 8/19/2023 at 8:10 PM, Jim Alfredson said:

A used 8 voice Korg Prologue can be had for around $700. Yes, it's almost double the Pro 800, but it's a much better synth and is honestly one of the most underrated analogs on the market right now.

 

Don't you mean of all time?

[David Emm]

8 hours ago, Joe Muscara said:

Sooooo… suppository?

 

 

Well.... have you never bought a synth that fired you up creatively and then spewed springs at every turn? We make our own buying choices, but when it begins to feel as if they're hawking lemons on purpose, don't you want the executives to cram it? Not just something Volca-sized, but a B-3 with Leslie? Do I have to spell it out like a "South Park" scenario? Surely not on a family-friendly group!

 

I'm more keen on anticipating Cherry Audio's new synth, Harmonia. Wavetables are clearly mentioned, but there's also a hint of additive. I foresee a new approach to sweeping through things. CA beefs up their vintage reimaginings quite well, but their original synths are superior mutants.

 

[David Emm]

I just listened to a 30-minute patch set demo of the Deepmind, by Scott McAuley Sounds & Synthesis. Damn, but that's a meaty-sounding synth, with not a fly on it. The team-up with Midas possibly plays a part in the synth's relative quality/popularity. B has its issues, but in another dimension, all of their synths speak up like the Deepmind and they really are a good budget alternative. Dear Alternate Santa...

[Dave Bryce]

On 8/23/2023 at 4:17 PM, David Emm said:

 

I'm more keen on anticipating Cherry Audio's new synth, Harmonia. Wavetables are clearly mentioned, but there's also a hint of additive. I foresee a new approach to sweeping through things. CA beefs up their vintage reimaginings quite well, but their original synths are superior mutants.

 

 

The CA folks were kind enough to send me a copy today.  Way psyched to check it out.  

 

Dreamsynth is one of my favorite instruments of theirs, so I’m excited to hear their latest creation.

dB

 

 

[Anderton]

On 8/22/2023 at 12:40 AM, CyberGene said:

You’d be amazed at how many companies are sued for patent infringement and are ordered to pay mind blowing amounts of money. And that happens repeatedly. I’m not saying it’s OK, but pointing the finger only at Behringer is simply unfair. 

 

No, I would not be amazed! I've done several expert witness gigs, as well as written amicus briefs, and have seen the legal system in action first-hand. I pointed the finger at Behringer because that's the topic of this thread. A German court determined that Behringer had stolen intellectual property. FWIW the verdict was never appealed.

 

I also know the kind of patent trolling to which you refer, which demeans the legal system. But this was definitely not a patent troll case. I would not have served as an expert witness unless I felt the plaintiff had an air-tight argument and more importantly, their position was justified.

 

My experience doesn't mean I condemn anyone who buys Behringer gear. You could get into a murky argument about receiving stolen goods, but really, once you start going down that kind of rabbit hole, everything sucks

[Anderton]

On 8/23/2023 at 4:09 AM, GRollins said:

Do those same people also condemn other companies with the same vehemence? How about ARP's appropriation of the Moog ladder filter? Surely those people hate ARP, right?

 

No, because ARP did the right thing. Moog had patented the circuit, and the original ARP filter was, shall we say, suspiciously close. Moog talked about this issue with Alan Pearlman, so ARP created a new filter design for the 2600 that didn't infringe. 

 

Roland also came up with a ladder filter, but it was diode-based instead of transistor-based. That was sufficient to circumvent Moog's patent. If Behringer did use the original Moog-type circuit in their 2600, it was well after Moog's patent had expired anyway.

[CyberGene]

24 minutes ago, Anderton said:

also know the kind of patent trolling to which you refer, which demeans the legal system. But this was definitely not a patent troll case.

 No, I didn’t mean patent trolling which is a case mostly in the software world. 
 

I meant companies stealing competitors’ IP, getting caught, paying hefty fines and then doing it again.
 

What I’m saying is big companies are all doing it. Even if there’s an out of court agreement for which you may have not heard. If one starts canceling companies for it, he will end up not using any commercial product. 

[Anderton]

53 minutes ago, CyberGene said:

If one starts canceling companies for it, he will end up not using any commercial product. 

 

I guess that confirms my comment that if you go down the rabbit hole deep enough, everything sucks

[SteveCoscia]

In 1979, I wanted a quality synth and couldn't afford a Mini-Moog or Odyssey - both were more than $1,000. Thankfully, Moog released the Prodigy and I think it was just under $400 (from Ted Veneman) and it sounded great.  Affordable price and great sound is what sells - then and now.

 

Behringer will attract new customers and grow (regardless of what folks think) if they stick to this business model.

[Jim Alfredson]

On 8/20/2023 at 9:45 PM, GRollins said:

I suppose it was inevitable that this would turn into a "hate Behringer" thread.

I suppose it was inevitable that any valid criticism of a company would be dismissed as 'hate'. That makes things easier, doesn't it?
 

Quote

I fail to understand those criticizing Behringer for copying synths like the Moog Model D. Moog has offered the Model D as a reissue at intervals, but at a rather high price. Now, as far as I know, they sold all the reissues, so I suppose they understood their market. That said, if I can have the sound of a Model D for a fraction of the price of a Moog reissue, then I'll take it and be glad. Any patents have long since expired, so there's no reason not to. Moog almost completely ignored the Eurorack format, even though it's thriving. It's a complete no-brainer to adapt their older synth modules to Eurorack--something I discussed with employees at the Moog store (they were VERY frustrated that management was ignoring their entreaties to build Eurorack synth modules). Then along comes Behringer, who does the Moog synths at a fraction of the cost and...gets lambasted for their efforts. How dare they?!? Of course, the Model D (along with a bunch of other items) is selling like hotcakes, so I guess Behringer won that argument. It's not like Moog even tried.

Nobody gives a shit that they are copying the Model D. The reasons one should not support this company are far more egregious than that and have already been outlined in this thread. You're resorting to strawman arguments.

 

Quote

I'm not saying Behringer is the best brand, ever. I've got some things they've made, but I've got a lot more things that other companies made. The display on one of my Intellijel Plonks is going out. I went to their website to ask if there was anything I could do on this end, but there were endless hoops to jump through. Do you think I should start an Intellijel hate thread? Maybe say how crappy their equipment is because my display is going out? Should I also rake them over the coals because they're not easy to talk to? Yeah, that's the ticket! LET'S ALL HATE INTELLIJEL!!! Right? Sound like a good idea to you? No? Me either. Yet, change the company name to Behringer and watch out, 'cause the shit's gonna fly.

Another strawman. Everyone knows when they buy Behringer they are buying the cheapest possible version of whatever product Behringer is currently ripping off. To cite other company's track records is moot and yet again ignores the rest of the argument why one should not support this company.

 

Quote

As I noted in another thread a little while back, there are people who just want to be mad. I'm growing weary of it. I try to remember to choose a more positive path. Sometimes I fail, but if I manage to get through the day without adding negativity to the world, then I count that as a good thing. Unfortunately, those who want to be mad are addicted to the self-righteous adrenaline rush that they get by lashing out at others. I can't stop them, but I can try in my own way to balance the scales just a tiny bit.

 

 

Again, dismissing the valid criticisms of the company as 'people just want to be mad' is either disingenuous or you honestly don't understand the argument itself, in which case I suggest reading about why good people genuinely loathe the company, as outlined already by my post earlier in the thread. Your entire post is one big strawman that essentially reads "I don't (or don't want to) understand the argument and it doesn't affect me personally, so therefor everyone else is overreacting."  

[Jim Alfredson]

On 8/21/2023 at 12:52 AM, CyberGene said:

You’ve missed the context, so let me put it here for you: analog synths (vintage or modern). How’s the reliability of Moog synths? The vintage ones? The modern ones? Rock solid, right? 😀 Over-generalizing about Behringer quality from a crappy mixer you owned 20 years ago won’t change the number of people who have had tons of issues with modern Moog and Sequential synths, just check the reviews. And then compare the price.

None of this is relevant to the topic at hand. But since you asked, I received a 1974 Minimoog last summer that had been in a wet basement for 30 years. I put about $200 worth of parts into it and it works as good as new and holds its tune perfectly. How's that for reliability?

My 2006 Moog Voyager works like the day it was new. Never a problem. 

I also got a set of Moog Taurus I pedals from 1978 last year that lived in a wet closet for 25+ years to the extent that the entire right side panel was rotted out and all the pots and sliders were rusted. Again, a few hundred bucks in parts and some tech work by me (Mr. Repair Guy Snob) and it's 100% functional again.

If the Taurus and original Minimoog were properly stored, they probably would only have needed new filter caps in the power supplies and calibration. Maybe some j-wire and bus bar cleaning. Basic maintenance for any older piece of gear.

I doubt the Poly-D will last 10 years before the solder joints will shrink, caps will go bad, and the key contacts fail. But hey... just buy another one, right?

But yet again, the reliability of their gear is only part of the equation. The main issue (for me) is the lack of ethics of the company itself; not just copying old synths, but new designs, bullying reviewers who dare honestly review their gear, publicly lying about reviewers, and suing people and companies for frivolous reasons. 

Responding to that with "Oh yeah, what about Apple, Microsoft, {insert company here}" doesn't absolve Behringer. Nor does attacking the messenger.
 

[sunspot]

The sad reality is that the likelihood of me currently having small keyboardless module format Minimoog and Pro-One clones in my arsenal if not for B is very very miniscule.  At that point you are diving into the boutique/DIY world, and there the lines/shades of grey are just as blurry.

 

It sucks, but it is what it is.  Hardware formats are a legitimate part of the equation, and there's a market for things that OEMs are not willing or interested in manufacturing.

 

[Radagast]

On 8/21/2023 at 8:21 PM, JazzPiano88 said:

My guiding principle that has served me well, and goes along with a life of mostly delayed gratification is, "you get what you pay for".

 

Really? Do you think the Moog One is worth $10,000 with all the bugs it’s reported to have?

[McBones]

In response to the OP's topic, I probably wouldn't buy this for myself.  But, if I had to have it stuffed in either of the mentioned receptacles, I'd opt for the stocking.

[CyberGene]

4 hours ago, Jim Alfredson said:

bullying reviewers who dare honestly review their gear

I’ve read about the Cork Sniffer parody and from what I understood that guy didn’t actually review their products but was known to be criticizing them for their ethics for years. I’m not defending Behringer for what they did. But unless I got things wrong, that guy didn’t “honestly” review their gear for the simple reason he didn’t review their gear at all because he didn’t like the company.

Here’s a summary and a timeline:

https://musictech.com/news/11-things-need-know-history-behringer-peter-kirn/

 

The synth community is an elite club. Many of those people are not even musicians. They are geeks or just collectors of valuable vintage items and understandably they don’t like that cheaper replicas are available. It’s like a vintage Ferrari being copied nowadays and sold cheap. It’s only nobody does that with cars but imagine the outrage if it happened 😀 

 

Copying current products is wrong. I hope they are sued for that. However their vintage replicas are great and allowing so many people to own a synth they could only dream of is admirable. Things are not black or white. Which is why big software companies were mentioned here as an example. Because they do despicable things but they’ve also created good products. But again, software is not an elite possession. Vintage synths are. Hence the hate. Yep, it’s hate 😉

[jazzpiano88]

5 hours ago, Radagast said:

On 8/21/2023 at 7:21 PM, JazzPiano88 said:

My guiding principle that has served me well, and goes along with a life of mostly delayed gratification is, "you get what you pay for".

 

Really? Do you think the Moog One is worth $10,000 with all the bugs it’s reported to have?

 

Not sure that's a good example since it's one of a kind.    The main thing is to stay away from cut-rate brands.   I view Behrenger as that with some exceptions.

Like it's hard to see you getting SSL level sound with $37 worth of electronic components.

 

 

 

[CyberGene]

“You get what you pay for” has many meanings. Sometimes paying a lot means paying for a brand name, not necessarily quality. How much do you think a bunch of transistors and resistors cost? Because that’s the cost of a Model D. In the case of the Minimoog reissue, there’s also a cheap Fatar keyboard and a nice wooden case but is it €6000 worth? One reviewer (out of three on Thomann, because these Minimoog reissues are not selling like hot cakes apparently) says:

 

On this synth, they have used wood that has defects, poorly unevenly ground edges, screwed together so that it is crooked and cannot be folded. You notice that the soul of the company has shifted to "money making". Moog completely sucks in how the final, insanely expensive product looks as they have completely lost quality control. How does it sound then? Yes, it sounds amazingly nice and it's beautiful to look at if you haven't been so bad at working with wood. Would never buy one again.
 

The €300 selling price of a Behringer Model D is realistic for what’s basically a very limited number of simple electronic components.

[GRollins]

15 hours ago, Jim Alfredson said:

I suppose it was inevitable that any valid criticism of a company would be dismissed as 'hate'. That makes things easier, doesn't it?
 

Nobody gives a shit that they are copying the Model D. The reasons one should not support this company are far more egregious than that and have already been outlined in this thread. You're resorting to strawman arguments.

 

Another strawman. Everyone knows when they buy Behringer they are buying the cheapest possible version of whatever product Behringer is currently ripping off. To cite other company's track records is moot and yet again ignores the rest of the argument why one should not support this company.

 

 

Again, dismissing the valid criticisms of the company as 'people just want to be mad' is either disingenuous or you honestly don't understand the argument itself, in which case I suggest reading about why good people genuinely loathe the company, as outlined already by my post earlier in the thread. Your entire post is one big strawman that essentially reads "I don't (or don't want to) understand the argument and it doesn't affect me personally, so therefor everyone else is overreacting."  

 

Your posts boil down to, "You don't get it." -and- "All statements contrary to my point of view are strawman arguments."

 

Not necessarily.

 

I stand by the things I've said and I gather your position is entrenched, so there's little to be gained by hammering the topic further. I'll bow out of this thread. It's just not worth it. The world is full of anger and negativity. If I need a dose, I can find it readily elsewhere.

 

Grey

[The Real MC]

Can admins lock this thread please?  Product discussions are one thing, but endless diatribes over business ethics are another where threads like this always denigrate into a useless exchange where nothing is ever resolved either pro or con with neither party willing to budge.  I've seen this too many times and frankly I'm tired of them.  Shut it down.

[CyberGene]

Maybe if the thread didn’t contain calls for boycotting a company, it wouldn’t end up like this? 🧐
 

How about admins deleting all the posts after (and including) the first post of Jim that ignited it all?

[Konnector]

Is there a Behringer thread on a forum anywhere that doesn't take a downward spiral? Let's not turn this into another heated Gearspace thread. Ooops...too late.

[allan_evett]

1 hour ago, CyberGene said:

Maybe if the thread didn’t contain calls for boycotting a company, it wouldn’t end up like this? 🧐
 

How about admins deleting all the posts after (and including) the first post of Jim that ignited it all?

 

That's a slippery slope. It's not politics, religion, etc... Things related to the playing of music, gear and so forth should be allowed, provided they don't involve ad hominem attacks or promote unethical/illegal behavior. Jim's entitled to his views here, which are largely accurate and do evoke concern. But in the end, everyone's opinion should be welcome - even ones that some might find too strongly worded. 

 

I'd feel better if a majority of Behringer's products were original, or more derivative - like the Deepmind synth series; that's one I have considered a few times. But that's the company's choice, along with the receipt of some negative feedback and a handful of lawsuits. 

 

Meanwhile, back to the original topic: My choice of a Pro-800 ended up not being the most practical for my application. Would I consider one in the future? Possibly, though I'd prefer a Sequential Rev 2 Desktop if doable.