Rocky Mountain Way Synth Break: Need Hivemind help getting THAT sound

[Iconoclast]

Need some clues to program the really cool synth(?) part behind the talk-box guitar solo on Rocky Mountain Way. Help me Hive Mind (you're my only hope). What do you possibly hear or is there some ancient interview you read that might give me clues to a better patch for this song.  It's a really cool part and I'd really like to nail THAT sound.

My available tools: Nord Stage 4, Mainstage, and all the Arturia Instruments and effects.

The difficult thing is that low pulse note on the E it seems like there's a filter that opens more on alternating notes, like maybe it's a velocity setting? But I just can't quite get anything to be the right amount. I also hear maybe a slow flanger coming through the patch.
 

 

[MathOfInsects]

That's just a Wurly, no? Some distortion and flange maybe?

[mcgoo]

Clavinet + wah thru a lightly overdriven guitar amp. In leau of that, the Arturia clav can likely get you there, especially if you have a clav to control the wah effect. 

[Iconoclast]

So I think a wurli or clav might get the pulse, but none of the other R hand stuff sounds like either of those instruments to me.

[Iconoclast]

I just saw some speculation that it's an Arp Odyssey? Anyone?

I really seriously doubt that it's a Wurli or Clav.

[Delaware Dave]

I've been playing that song for 30+years and have been using a rhodes to get the bite needed to replicate that sound.

[analogika]

Not a Wurli or a Clav. Odyssey might fit the bill, since it’s no more than two voices at a time. There wasn’t really much else in 1972 that could do that. 
 

Very slow filter cutoff modulation, and the weird effect you’re hearing on the low note sounds like PWN to me, driven from the same slow LFO as the filter cutoff. 
 

The overdriven output sounds about right for a Rev 1 Ody, as well. 

[Iconoclast]

7 minutes ago, Delaware Dave said:

I've been playing that song for 30+years and have been using a rhodes to get the bite needed.  Not sure why the OP thinks a synth is the correct instrument.

Because all the R hand stuff sounds like a synth and really nothing like an EP?  It really sounds to me like a filter is opening on either an LFO synched to song tempo or an envelope modded w/velocity (Did anyone have that in 1972-73?)

I just found that on the wiki page for the Arp Odyssey it mentions being used on both Rocky Mountain Way and Life's Been Good To Me.

[mate stubb]

i always heard it as Rhodes with pedal wah on the comping. I've heard many Rhodes sound like that in the low to mid note range without all the boom and bells you often hear. Rather than fancy tempo sync, just a guy cranking his wah pedal in time.

 

Example:

 

 

[MathOfInsects]

Professor Google seems to think it was wah clav. 

[Bill H.]

This would be easier to figure out if that damn talkbox guitar would get out of the way!

 

Hmm... never noticed before, but you can her what sounds like a change in pulse width in there, plus a bit of LPF "fwap" on the attack transients of right hand riffs.  I'm definitely leaning towards Odyssey. 

 

Back in the day I played it on my Clavinet C + wah pedal. The song didn't stick around too long - it was kind of a floor killer. We blamed it on the fact that it was an extended jam in 6/8 time, but maybe we just didn't do it very well. 

[MathOfInsects]

Not that it needs to have been the same board, but here's the band playing the song live in 1973. That board on top is the one theoretically making the filtered sound during the performance (though it doesn't sound like the record). Anyone recognize it? 

[Iconoclast]

That's about the size and shape of an Odyssey?

[MathOfInsects]

Yeah, with those black sides in particular. Though the power supply is in the wrong place. 

[The Real MC]

I dialed up a ring modulation patch on my Andromeda and it sounds pretty close.  The Odyssey has a ring modulator.

[Iconoclast]

I don't have an Odyssey soft-synth, but trying it with the Prophet V.

Reducing the Polyphony down to 2 seem to create a little snappiness to it that captures some of the feel of it. 

I can't seem to get the flange/phase effect by modulating PW on a slow LFO though, but an actual flanger seems to do a decent job.

Trying to use the velocity to vary the filter/resonance to get the feel.

[MathOfInsects]

The keyboard in that video is 100% the Arp Odyssey. You can see the nameplate here.

 

[Iconoclast]

 

OK, try that on. Definitely good enough for a cover gig and probably better than what Joe has used live.

[analogika]

11 hours ago, Bill H. said:

This would be easier to figure out if that damn talkbox guitar would get out of the way!

 

It is — the guitar is hard-panned right, and the Odyssey is hard left. 😉

[analogika]

9 hours ago, Iconoclast said:

 

OK, try that on. Definitely good enough for a cover gig and probably better than what Joe has used live.

 

pull up the high-pass filter to remove the bass, narrow the pulse width a bit, and you've got a winner! 

[Stokely]

I just played wurli for that, but I'm definitely a "close enough for horseshoes and hand grenades" person when it comes to patches.  

[AWkeys]

I actually got to sing and play that with Joe Vitale, the original drummer/keyboardist on the song. I can confirm that he used an ARP Odyssey for that section. Told me that he and Joe were up at Caribou Ranch working on it while the studio was being built. They've been best friends since they started out together in Ohio.

[allan_evett]

Fun discussion, learning a lot!  I've done this a few different ways, thinking that the audience isn't going to be on the edge of their seats analyzing my keyboard tones😉; rather, keeping the groove and signature notes the priority.  Initially I used a clavinet sound with an auto-wah effect (Yamaha Motif, or S-something...), then switched to doing the same with a Kurz PC3.  I've been covering this more recently with a slightly grunged Wurli patch on a Stage 3; being able to quickly grab and tweak FX parameters is great. 

 

Planning to try an Odyssey-style patch for the initial lower note groove, though I'm keeping that right hand bluesy riff on the EP tone.  Meanwhile for the rest of the song it's rock piano time. 

[Radagast]

I’m hearing three note chords off and on behind the guitar solo.

[MathOfInsects]

Here's the thing, though. I am fully able to believe it was played on the ARP; there is definitely something in those upper notes that sounds more ARPy than EM-keys-y. If you listen closely and with the excellent informed ears of people here, you can hear that distinction if you're looking for it. 

 

BUT...it also sounds like a Wurly, Rhodes, or Clav, with some easily-added effects--even to others here with excellent, informed ears. So when it comes time to play that part live, IMO it doesn't really matter if it was recorded with the ARP. It sounds like an EM keyboard--maybe even more like one than a synth. So no one in the room is going to complain if you make the sound via EM keyboard, rather than via synth engine. You might even get closer, faster, taking the former route. 

[Stokely]

One thing I like to do when covering songs is look up live versions.  Now, you may find you don't *like* the live versions--I've seen classic rock tunes done with cheesy (to me) keyboard tones that left me thinking "what were you thinking..."   Or you might find that they are running tracks which is worse than useless.  But sometimes I'll find some really good ideas from someone actually playing the part in a live setting.

[Threadslayer]

16 hours ago, Bill H. said:

This would be easier to figure out if that damn talkbox guitar would get out of the way!

 

The guitar and keys are panned hard left and right so it's pretty easy to isolate.

[mcgoo]

1 hour ago, Stokely said:

One thing I like to do when covering songs is look up live versions.  Now, you may find you don't *like* the live versions--I've seen classic rock tunes done with cheesy (to me) keyboard tones that left me thinking "what were you thinking..."   Or you might find that they are running tracks which is worse than useless.  But sometimes I'll find some really good ideas from someone actually playing the part in a live setting.

 

The live version from "You Can't Argue With A Sick Mind" is brilliant IMO, but it totally leaves that kbd part out. I actually prefer it over the original. (That whole album is really good, BTW.) 

[HammondDave]

4 hours ago, MathOfInsects said:

Here's the thing, though. I am fully able to believe it was played on the ARP; there is definitely something in those upper notes that sounds more ARPy than EM-keys-y. If you listen closely and with the excellent informed ears of people here, you can hear that distinction if you're looking for it. 

 

BUT...it also sounds like a Wurly, Rhodes, or Clav, with some easily-added effects--even to others here with excellent, informed ears. So when it comes time to play that part live, IMO it doesn't really matter if it was recorded with the ARP. It sounds like an EM keyboard--maybe even more like one than a synth. So no one in the room is going to complain if you make the sound via EM keyboard, rather than via synth engine. You might even get closer, faster, taking the former route. 

I agree. When I play that song I use a combination of a distorted wurly and clav patch. Both run through the filter. 

[Iconoclast]

I have done previous versions of it on a Stage 3 but recently upgraded to a Stage 4 and have been re-doing a lot of patches and I don't know why this particular patch is stuck in my head, but I think it's killer and I couldn't seem to get the feel I wanted with other attempts.  Is it kind of overkill? Yeah sure, but I always learn something when I go hard to chase down a patch.  There's certainly other songs where I put nowhere near this effort!

I'm kinda surprised that one of the biggest ingredients seemed to be reducing the polyphony. I still need to get the filter just right, but the Prophet V keyboard scaling is an on/off switch and I can't seem to get the the filter to sound right in the L and R hands simultaneously.  If I get the time, I'm going to try it on Pigments, which has a bit more filter options, and I think I can limit the polyphony on.